Bishops?

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[Aibrean]

Nope

 

[filosofer]

The term Bishop changed over the first centuries of the Christian church. In the New Testament, the term “bishop” (επισκοπο&#962, “pastor” (ποιμενο&#962, and “elder” (πρεσβυτερο&#962 overlap in use, depending on context and need of the writer.

Only in post Biblical times is the term “bishop” referring to some in authority/oversight over pastors and elders. Within the Lutheran history some groupings of Lutherans had or have Bishops, some do not. The LCMS history was forged in the dispute about the necessity of a “bishop” and the abuse of that term and role by Martin Stephan (1830’s to 1841). Thus, LCMS typically shies away from bishop and all that such use implies.

 

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[Bryne]

Because one Lutheran group doesn't have Bishops, all of Lutheranism is destroyed? I don't think so.

Some Lutheran groups do have Bishops. Some even have apostolic succession that is recognized as valid by the RCC.

 

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[filosofer]

Well, that pretty much destroys Lutheranism. Thank you for saving me time.

How can that destroy Lutheranism? If you can dismiss Lutheranism that quickly, then it is obvious you haven’t even digested the heart of Lutheranism. Having “bishops” in the Roman Catholic (or Orthodox) sense is not mandated in Scripture. As I tried to point out, there is much overlap with the three terms in the NT. Have you examined what Scripture says about each of them? Not what the RCC says based on church history, but the NT itself. Can you point out the mandate for bishops in the NT? As a parallel term for elder or presbyter, then yes that is mandated, but not the RCC/Orthodox sense.

 

[filosofer]

The only Lutherans that seem valid to me are the Missouri-Synod. I do find it a little humorous that Lutheranism is split up as much as Protestantism, though. Just goes to show...

Two things:

1. The LCMS does has spiritual oversight through District Presidents, but not in the absolute sense of RCC. So perhaps another look is needed at what you mean and what is Biblical.

2. And you think that the RCC is monolithic? Hmmmm. BTW, your statement is also how the Orthodox view Roman Catholics.

 

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[Bryne]

You might like a group like this:

Lutheran Orthodox Church

The Lutheran Orthodox Church, inc - Home


or this:

Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church

http://anglolutherancatholic.org/

 

[filosofer]

Bishops have been the overseers of cities even in the earliest centuries. What gives the Lutherans a right to turn that around?

So, are you saying that church history trumps Scripture? It appears that you are starting with the standpoint that the RCC is the absolute standard. We disagree.

As Lutherans we do not take a position on having bishops. It can be done or not. On the liberal side you have some churches that do: ELCA, Church of Sweden, etc. On the conservative side there are churches that have bishops: Lutheran Church of Kenya, etc. In other words, it is not mandated by Scripture. So it can be “good, right, and salutary,” and without it, it is still “good, right, and salutary.”

 

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[DaRev]

I haven't mentioned the Catholic Church at all. Odd that you keep mentioning them. I'm merely going by the Bible and historical fact. Bishops have always been in the Church, in the Bible and after.

As Filo has stated, the term "bishop" in the NT (episkopos) refers to pastors, not to the heirarchial man made office found in later history. Don't claim to follow Scripture when you clearly are uninformed about what it actually says.

 

[QuiltAngel]

I haven't mentioned the Catholic Church at all. Odd that you keep mentioning them. I'm merely going by the Bible and historical fact. Bishops have always been in the Church, in the Bible and after.

Let's see, in your other thread, "Why Lutheranism," you post that you are trying to decide between RCC and Lutheran. Then in this thread you ask about bishops and when explained that we don't have bishops per se and why, it is a deal breaker for you.

Why is it important for you to be in a church with bishops? If you are going for the historical precedence, we should have kings and emperors as they are in the Bible too, yet many countries of early church history don't have those anymore. So the names for certain positions change to reflect better the meaning of the original Greek and Hebrew as has been demonstrated here.

 

[seajoy]

The only Lutherans that seem valid to me are the Missouri-Synod.

What do you mean by 'valid'? An inquiring WELS member would love to know.

 

[Aibrean]

Considering having a bishop has nothing to do with salvation, our faith, or Christ - I see no reason why you build such importance upon it (or are so stuck on the title).

 

[Luther073082]

As Lutherans do not accept Apostolic succession, we don't consider the title of Bishop to be a necessary one.

The LCMS has district presidents which fulfill the role of bishops as spritiual overseer's but have far more limited power then Orthodox or Roman Catholic Bishops.

Now personally I kind of prefer the bishop title because the District president title just seems kind of secular to me. But that having been said . . . dude its not that big of a deal doctrinally speaking from a Lutheran perspective.

 

[DaRev]

Now personally I kind of prefer the bishop title because the District president title just seems kind of secular to me.

Well, the position of "district president" is a man made office, so it could indeed have a secular sounding title, just as congregation president is man-made with a secular-like title. The title of "bishop" (episkopos) is used in the NT (along with presbuteros - "elder") to denote the one divinely instituted office in the Church, that of "pastor". The term "bishop" has been elevated by those churches with a magisterial hierarchy to refer to the position of overseer above congregations and pastors. This position is basically the same as what the LCMS calls "district presidents". They are man-made positions. The confusion comes because these man-made offices have been given a name used in the NT for "pastor".

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

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"Bishop" (largely the transliteration of a Greek word) refers to one of several church offices - the exact identify and function of which cannot be determined......

Whatever it may have meant or been in the First Century, the term came to be associated with an office of supervision - especially clerical supervision.

In that sense, does the LCMS has bishops? Yes. We call them District Presidents (and the Circuit Counselors that minister with them).






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[Luther073082]

Well, the position of "district president" is a man made office, so it could indeed have a secular sounding title, just as congregation president is man-made with a secular-like title. The title of "bishop" (episkopos) is used in the NT (along with presbuteros - "elder") to denote the one divinely instituted office in the Church, that of "pastor". The term "bishop" has been elevated by those churches with a magisterial hierarchy to refer to the position of overseer above congregations and pastors. This position is basically the same as what the LCMS calls "district presidents". They are man-made positions. The confusion comes because these man-made offices have been given a name used in the NT for "pastor".

Ok so riddle me this.

Basically the position of what we call today as a pastor, used to be called either Bishop or Elder and is translated in 1 Tim 3 as "overseer" correct??

What about the other office mentioned, translated to "deacon." First of all is the deacon menioned in the ESV the same office as we understand a deacon to be today? And secondly does it being mentioned directly in scripture as a church office make it also divinely instituted? And if no why not?

I know also we are sort of talking about one of the few doctrinal differences between Missouri and Wisconsin here so it would help for me to understand what the argument is about. (And maybe you could edjamacate me as to why its that big of a deal? I mean if Wisconsin and Missouri where one on all other doctrines (which I know they arn't) would they still be out of communion with eachother over what offices are divinely instituted?