Bible Myth #4 The message is more important than the messenger

[Peter J Barban]

A lot of Christians think that the message is all important. The messenger doesn't matter. While I agree that the social importance of the messenger doesn't matter, the messenger's life must be in harmony with the message. The spiritual world cares more about the messenger than the message:

1.
Act 16:16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

The slave girl with the demon was promoting Paul and the gospel, but Paul rejected this and cast out the demon - at great cost to himself, demonstrating that the messenger is more important than the message.

2
Acts 19: 13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

The sons of Sceva used the same formula to remove demons that we use today,"In the name of Jesus, I command you to come out". This phrase works for believers (sometimes) but not for unbelievers. Even demons know that the messenger is more important than the message.

3
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Jesus says that we will know false prophets by their fruit (not their message). This is true of all messengers. If they have a good message but a bad life - do not trust their message.

 

[Eryk]

If they have a good message but a bad life - do not trust their message.

Indeed. Books like Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults taught us to focus on doctrinal orthodoxy, which is extremely important. But the shepherding movement took off in the 70s in many churches that had all the hallmarks of a cult, but their statements of faith looked normal.

 

[miknik5]

A lot of Christians think that the message is all important. The messenger doesn't matter. While I agree that the social importance of the messenger doesn't matter, the messenger's life must be in harmony with the message. The spiritual world cares more about the messenger than the message:

1.
Act 16:16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

The slave girl with the demon was promoting Paul and the gospel, but Paul rejected this and cast out the demon - at great cost to himself, demonstrating that the messenger is more important than the message.

2
Acts 19: 13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

The sons of Sceva used the same formula to remove demons that we use today,"In the name of Jesus, I command you to come out". This phrase works for believers (sometimes) but not for unbelievers. Even demons know that the messenger is more important than the message.

3
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Jesus says that we will know false prophets by their fruit (not their message). This is true of all messengers. If they have a good message but a bad life - do not trust their message.

What if the messenger has a "good life" known to all but a very new message?

 

[Peter J Barban]

If it was really new and important, I suggest we copy the Council of Jerusalem model. That is, gather all the wise spiritual leaders, listen to testimony and debate, then humble ourselves and listen to the Holy Spirit.

Of course at this point hardly any message is important, true and new. Years ago, I once discovered a Bible truth that I had never heard before. I developed it into a theology and was on fire at the importance and urgency of the message. Then on a whim, I looked up the topic online and found the exact same message in an online sermon from an early Boston Puritan preacher delivered hundreds of years ago. My ego was hurt, but it gave me confidence that my message wasn't completely off the wall.

 

[miknik5]

If it was really new and important, I suggest we copy the Council of Jerusalem model. That is, gather all the wise spiritual leaders, listen to testimony and debate, then humble ourselves and listen to the Holy Spirit.

Of course at this point hardly any message is important, true and new. Years ago, I once discovered a Bible truth that I had never heard before. I developed it into a theology and was on fire at the importance and urgency of the message. Then on a whim, I looked up the topic online and found the exact same message in an online sermon from an early Boston Puritan preacher delivered hundreds of years ago. My ego was hurt, but it gave me confidence that my message wasn't completely off the wall.

I suggest we don't listen to it

It's from the mouth of the wrong "messenger"

No one needs to add to THE FOUNDATION

And anyone who allows shifting sand (.manmade wisdom) to come between their feet and THE FOUNDATION, will fall

 

[Sola1517]

To a certain degree, yes. All messengers should be Born-again Christians that are growing in holiness.

The slave girl with the demon was promoting Paul and the gospel, but Paul rejected this and cast out the demon - at great cost to himself, demonstrating that the messenger is more important than the message.

How does that demonstrate that the messenger was more important than the message? If anything that ought to communicate that the messenger is nothing and the Gospel is everything.

Was the demon possessed girl doing the will of God?

The sons of Sceva used the same formula to remove demons that we use today,"In the name of Jesus, I command you to come out". This phrase works for believers (sometimes) but not for unbelievers. Even demons know that the messenger is more important than the message.

Okay, now I'm tracking. The point is you must have your identity based in Christ in order to have spiritual authority.

Jesus says that we will know false prophets by their fruit (not their message). This is true of all messengers. If they have a good message but a bad life - do not trust their message.

When does a person reach that stage of perfection in their Christian walk?

 

[Peter J Barban]

How does that demonstrate that the messenger was more important than the message? If anything that ought to communicate that the messenger is nothing and the Gospel is everything.

Was the demon possessed girl doing the will of God?

The demon possessed girl had the right message. What she said was true and important. But since the messenger was demon-possessed and the message was coming from a demon, Paul rejected the demonic promotion of the gospel and removed the demon well in order to stop her. Good message + bad messenger = not doing the will of God.

As a traveling missionary, eventually Paul would move on, but the demon possessed girl would remain and have the ability (from a position of trust) to corrupt the message and destroy the local fellowship.

 

[miknik5]

[

If it was really new and important, I suggest we copy the Council of Jerusalem model. That is, gather all the wise spiritual leaders, listen to testimony and debate, then humble ourselves and listen to the Holy Spirit.

Of course at this point hardly any message is important, true and new. Years ago, I once discovered a Bible truth that I had never heard before. I developed it into a theology and was on fire at the importance and urgency of the message. Then on a whim, I looked up the topic online and found the exact same message in an online sermon from an early Boston Puritan preacher delivered hundreds of years ago. My ego was hurt, but it gave me confidence that my message wasn't completely off the wall.

The demon possessed girl had the right message. What she said was true and important. But since the messenger was demon-possessed and the message was coming from a demon, Paul rejected the demonic promotion of the gospel and removed the demon well in order to stop her. Good message + bad messenger = not doing the will of God.

As a traveling missionary, eventually Paul would move on, but the demon possessed girl would remain and have the ability (from a position of trust) to corrupt the message and destroy the local fellowship.

How does that work for a good messenger with a new message?

Shall we also gather the "wise" to review this new message?


And what characteristics would be needed for one to distinguish these "wise" councillors to this "new message" from this good messenger?

 

[ViaCrucis]

God's grace is efficacious in spite of sinful humans. That's why the Church has rightfully condemned the heresy of Donatism. Even a wicked pastor/priest can preach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments, the validity and efficacy of God's Word does not depend on the moral quality of the minister.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter J Barban]

God's grace is efficacious in spite of sinful humans. That's why the Church has rightfully condemned the heresy of Donatism. Even a wicked pastor/priest can preach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments, the validity and efficacy of God's Word does not depend on the moral quality of the minister.

Perhaps that is why the church allows child molesters to operate in the church unmolested. Me, I think otherwise.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Even a wicked pastor/priest can preach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments, the validity and efficacy of God's Word does not depend on the moral quality of the minister.

Yet these same churches will frown if I walk in and try to administer the sacraments or preach. They don't let just anybody do such things because they actually agree that the messenger is more important than the message.

 

[Jwlickliter]

A lot of Christians think that the message is all important. The messenger doesn't matter. While I agree that the social importance of the messenger doesn't matter, the messenger's life must be in harmony with the message. The spiritual world cares more about the messenger than the message:

1.
Act 16:16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

The slave girl with the demon was promoting Paul and the gospel, but Paul rejected this and cast out the demon - at great cost to himself, demonstrating that the messenger is more important than the message.

2
Acts 19: 13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

The sons of Sceva used the same formula to remove demons that we use today,"In the name of Jesus, I command you to come out". This phrase works for believers (sometimes) but not for unbelievers. Even demons know that the messenger is more important than the message.

3
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Jesus says that we will know false prophets by their fruit (not their message). This is true of all messengers. If they have a good message but a bad life - do not trust their message.

Yes I agree. I feel it's all important and any time in life if you think its unimportant you may blind yourself.

We need to learn to blind ourself from Satan's tricks.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yet these same churches will frown if I walk in and try to administer the sacraments or preach.

People don't usually take kindly to people coming into their home and raiding the fridge uninvited, no.

They don't let just anybody do such things because they actually agree that the messenger is more important than the message.

False.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter J Barban]

People don't usually take kindly to people coming into their home and raiding the fridge uninvited, no.



False.

-CryptoLutheran

Are you saying that churches should let anybody perform sacraments and deliver messages to the congregation? How about a non-Christian actor like Tom Cruise? How about atheists and Muslims? How about programmable robots?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are you saying that churches should let anybody perform sacraments and deliver messages to the congregation? How about a non-Christian actor like Tom Cruise? How about atheists and Muslims? How about programmable robots?

No. I've said two things here:

1) That the efficacy of God's word and promises do not depend on the moral character or quality of the person preaching or administering the Sacraments. Donatism is heresy.

2) Restricting who may officiate Word and Sacrament to an ordained minister does not make the messenger more important than the message.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter J Barban]

No. I've said two things here:

1) That the efficacy of God's word and promises do not depend on the moral character or quality of the person preaching or administering the Sacraments. Donatism is heresy.

2) Restricting who may officiate Word and Sacrament to an ordained minister does not make the messenger more important than the message.

2 problems
1. Churches don't ordain just anybody. They carefully screen the messengers before they trust them with the message. That is consistent with my thesis and the opposite of yours.

2. Your view implies that one's relationship with church leadership is more important than one's relationship with God. Once ordained, you get a free pass. And that is exactly why the Catholic Church has a pedophile problem. And why so many Protestant Churches fall into error. If a man's life is far from God, eventually his message will follow. And woe to the laymen who complain.

The number 1 reason that the messenger is more important than the message is that the God cares more about people than words. Words will pass away but people have an eternal destiny.

 

[Peter J Barban]

1) That the efficacy of God's word and promises do not depend on the moral character or quality of the person preaching or administering the Sacraments. Donatism is heresy.

2) Restricting who may officiate Word and Sacrament to an ordained minister does not make the messenger more important than the message.

Do you have any Bible examples to support this doctrine?

 

[pescador]

No. I've said two things here:

1) That the efficacy of God's word and promises do not depend on the moral character or quality of the person preaching or administering the Sacraments. Donatism is heresy.

2) Restricting who may officiate Word and Sacrament to an ordained minister does not make the messenger more important than the message.

-CryptoLutheran

There is nowhere in the Bible that says that the bread and wine should be "administered" by anyone. The ritual of the Sacrament is made up.

Likewise, there is nowhere in the Bible that says that sharing the Word of God should be limited to an ordained minister.

The bread and wine and God's word are living and active and should not be limited to a special class of "priests" who are somehow separated from the rest of the body of Christ. The church has one head, Jesus Christ, and none of the other parts are more important than another.

 

[unbelievable1]

I didn't hear this poster say anything that the two of you have suggested.

Pescador or peter j barans

In fact, I read Via Crucis post to mean that the messenger is not at all important but the message is

kind of like this:
he must increase, I must decrease.

I am not the Christ?

The message is much more important than the messenger.

unless it is THE messenger who is giving the message.

 

[Peter J Barban]

kind of like this:
he must increase, I must decrease.

John the Baptist proves how important the messenger is:
Matthew 11:10 This is the one about whom it is written:
“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’[a]
11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

There was literally no messenger better. Now if God sent a thief and a murderer, we could see that the messenger matters not. Instead, God sent the greatest man who ever lived to that point.