Bare Knuckle Boxing vs Gloved Boxing

[SuperCloud]

Branching off from the Dressing Modestly thread which veered off topic:



Okay... fighting is such as sport or non-sport that people across countries and cultures give and take, teach and learn. Modern MMA (Mixed Martial Arts grew out of that). Muay Thai has grown in popularity in the West due to MMA but apparently also due to a famous kickboxing fight (shown below in 3rd video) between a Western style vs that Thai style.

But bare knuckle boxing--going back even before the Brits to ancient times (maybe Greeks and Egyptians)--arguably spurred it all. Along with grappling Pankration, bare knuckle boxing may be the original seed or root to gloved fighting sports.

Is one more ethical than the other or are both unethical to you or both equally ethical to you?

1st video shows Irish Travelers tradition of bare knuckle boxing.

2nd video claims the Brits where the mother of bare knuckle boxing (at least in the modern West).

3rd video with Rick Roufus (his brother Duke in his corner) who came from a kick boxing family, has local roots/connection here in Milwaukee, WI. And his fight with this Thai guy would change American kickboxing history.

The 1st and 3rd video shows true heart, true grit in all the competitors.

 

[SuperCloud]

^Notice in the 1st video with the Irish... there are a lot of children in the audience.

 

[RC1970]

Personally, I would use a baseball bat because it's quicker. But, since I'm a peaceful person, I think it should all be abstained from.

 

[SuperCloud]

Personally, I would use a baseball bat because it's quicker. But, since I'm a peaceful person, I think it should all be abstained from.

Well... I eat meat. So, I don't criticize hunters and hunting in and of itself. As long as a person is vegetarian then there really is no hypocrisy in them objecting to all and every hunting of animals.

I think that is analogous to those that profess to be so peaceful they object to all violence. As long as they refuse to call the police or any other person to do the fighting for them... then there is no real hypocrisy in being a pacifist.

Boxing can be a test of endurance--like being sodomized. Punches, at least hard one, as they accumulate actually begin to sap your energy. You can quickly--depending on how good or lacking your conditioning is--begin to pant for oxygen. This often accompanies panic, anxiety for many.

Those that experience these things--boxing for instance--develop an appreciation for those that develop great endurance and learn to handle the anxiety well. Such people (today that includes women as well because they are involved in combat sports) make videos like the 1st and 3rd video above and give accolades to the gentleman combatants.

It's akin to those that never studied sciences and think all or most medical doctors are stupid people that breezed through medical school (which must not be hard). If you study the sciences you inevitably develop and appreciation for what it takes for a person to make it through medical school (with its advanced science courses).

Military combat can be more dangerous and maiming. Things like landmines (which I'm against but the US Government refuses to agree to ban) can blow off a young man's sexual organs, his genitals. Boxing, especially with gloves, while it does come with risks, it does not come with flying bullets, landmines, and the host of other things that make war or combat disturbing. You don't have to pick up pieces of children scattered around as the soldier might because "those against doing violence" demanded the government send in Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen to do violence on other men on their behalf.

 

[loveofourlord]

I think there are some studies that are showing that protection such as boxing gloves and such actually increase injury, because it gives the impression of it being safer, but your still hitting almost as hard, just your fists arn't being hurt, so your getting far more lighter hits but almost as much kinetic force, and since your fists arn't taking any damage you can throw them more often.

It's the same thing coming up with football, has proctive gear may have INCREASED injuries, because people are hitting harder and with more force, that while are usually protected, but when the protection doesn't work for one reason or another your taking a much bigger hit now, then you would have 10-20 years ago.

it's somthing that needs to be lookd at.

 

[bhsmte]

I think there are some studies that are showing that protection such as boxing gloves and such actually increase injury, because it gives the impression of it being safer, but your still hitting almost as hard, just your fists arn't being hurt, so your getting far more lighter hits but almost as much kinetic force, and since your fists arn't taking any damage you can throw them more often.

It's the same thing coming up with football, has proctive gear may have INCREASED injuries, because people are hitting harder and with more force, that while are usually protected, but when the protection doesn't work for one reason or another your taking a much bigger hit now, then you would have 10-20 years ago.

it's somthing that needs to be lookd at.

I agree.

 

[SuperCloud]

There is some truth to that, loveofourlord.

There are variables, so, it's not universal.

Yes, as a rule of thumb you can't hit as hard bare knuckle or you're far more likely to break your hand. Some within old school MMA have brought that up--that the tiny gloves used in MMA actually allow you to punch harder and really only protect the fighters hands and not his or hers opponents head/brain.

Largely the same rules apply to boxing with some exceptions due to variables. There are a number of different sized (weighted) boxing gloves. On top of that you have your traditional American/European boxing glove versus the Mexican style boxing gloves known as "The puncher's gloves."

In the past I had a pair of Everlast brand gloves that were Mexican style. And I think 14 oz. Man! the padding was hard. So, it was not soft padding hitting an opponents face.

But a soft 16 oz. pair of traditional American gloves--let alone some puffier 18 oz gloves--is much different. Some people, when wearing 10 oz. gloves, might be able to knock tough opponents out. But if their put in puffier, softer, 16 oz. gloves they may not be able to do it.

In boxing what really helps you hit harder is actually your hands being wrapped. And a good wrapping not only protects your hands but can make you feel like you can punch through a wall.

Those bare knuckle fighters in the 1st video were using hand wraps*. So, they hand their hands protected (better than being truly bare knuckle at least) and could hit harder. They were also fighting on cement or asphalt (God forbid one fell and hit the back of their head against the pavement). And there's greater risk of getting thumbed in the eye. So, it's hard for me to say which is worse. I've had street fights but never an actual "top floor" bare knuckles fight like those Irish and Brits. And the quality of those Irish fighters was something impressive I'll tell ya.



Boxing is so corrupt--at least at the professional level--that I've been told there have been coaches that have put plaster (or something like that) in the hand wrapping of their fighters. And by the time the fight starts it is dried and harden to stone-like quality.

 

[SuperCloud]

Currently I have a pair of these from a Canadian company. I'm impressed with them. The padding is pretty soft, but to me it still has that good fit of a Mexican style glove.



http://www.gorillagear.ca/boxing-mma-gloves/boxing-gloves/HitmanSparringGloves

Gorilla Fight Gear's "Hitman" Sparring gloves are our version of what a Mexican style puncher's glove should be. These gloves were designed to be very comfortable for making a tight natural fist. The foam is of medium density which is not to soft but not to hard that you'll feel bad sparring in them. They are the hardest sparring gloves in our lineup but they are alot softer then some other big brand name sparring gloves we have seen on the market.

 

[loveofourlord]

other thing was, while I can hit you 30*'s as much with 'padded' boxing gloves, most gloves arn't difusing as much of the force, so it feels like your not being hit as hard, but your brains still being rattled about as bad, and for longer. And like I said there is the theory that you might punch harder with boxing gloves then you would without because your going to hurt your hand.

 

[SuperCloud]

I've been recently told by a knowledgeable person, that England is on an upswing back in boxing gyms. That's to say old school quality coaching/gyms. If these crazy people in Ireland are any indication I can see why. LOL.

The same person told me Russia and Eastern Europe still produces the most spartan boxers from spartan boxing gyms. And he's said what I've heard from others, that America's gym are in major decline. He says it will be long time before America ever rebounds again.

These Irish seem to me to be second only to the Chechen (Muslims) in spartan warrior culture.

I have no idea what these people are saying 99% of the time in the below videos. But the back and forth arguing is almost comical.

1st video a good show of young Irish men. Good sportsmanship. What they were arguing about I have no idea. Can't understand their English.

Last 3 videos old men like they're 19.

A few curse words. I have no idea what at all the 80 year-old man is saying. But by title and his raised fist he apparently wants to bare knuckle box fat Joe in the 2 videos above. LOL I've never seen anything like this. Wild. LOL.

 

[KitKatMatt]

As long as:

The people involved are consenting to the fight and are aware of the risk of injuries and accept them,

and

The people involved in bare knuckle boxing* do not carry any blood borne illnesses that could get transferred to each other or to other people because of injuries,

Then I don't see a problem at all.

*I don't know much about regular gloved boxing. Is blood usually spilled? If there is, then this needs to apply to them too of course.

 

[Holoman]

The thing to remember about bare knuckle boxing is that boxing gloves are designed to allow a boxer to do more damage to their opponent. It is in fact much more brutal to fight with gloves.

 

[bhsmte]

The thing to remember about bare knuckle boxing is that boxing gloves are designed to allow a boxer to do more damage to their opponent. It is in fact much more brutal to fight with gloves.

This is correct.

There is a thing called; "boxers break" which is a bone on the outside of the hand, which is easily broken, when the hand impacts something firm, with enough force.

What bare knuckle boxing promotes, is the ability to more easily open cuts on your opponent, vs the more forceful blows, that would knock someone unconscious.

Similar to what we see with football being played with protective helmets vs without a helmet. With a helmet, a player feels he is free to impart a great deal more force in their blows, without risk of injury to themselves.

 

[SuperCloud]

The thing to remember about bare knuckle boxing is that boxing gloves are designed to allow a boxer to do more damage to their opponent. It is in fact much more brutal to fight with gloves.

That's true in MMA due to the tiny size of the gloves.

To some extent it can be true in boxing but due to glove differentials its not a universal truth.

Furthermore, it's not really the gloves protecting your hands as much as the hand wrapping.

When boxers train they have wrapped hands. Those wrapped hands you insert in the glove. Absent hand wrapping you'd probably break your hand.

Those bare knuckle fighters in the video wore hand wraps. Those hand wraps protected their hands. Allowing them to hit harder. However, their hard, boney knuckles made contact with the fighters face (or ribs). Depending on the boxing gloves worn, and depending on how soft or hard the padding is, the opponents face is hit with more cushion (more give in the glove, more give when your face is hit. Like the difference between falling on dirt or falling on concrete, or the difference between your face hitting a car bag versus going through a window and your face hitting a steel fire hydrant.)

People have different ways of wrapping their hands. However, the better wrapped they are the harder you can hit.

 

[SuperCloud]

^boxing gloves are wider inside as they're meant to accommodate wrapped hands. Sparring and competition gloves I'm speaking about. But the same is true for most (not all) "bag gloves" (gloves to be used only for punching bag and mitt work).

With out wrapped hands your hands can be floating a bit loosely inside the gloves, and you can injury your hands on something as simple as hitting mitts. I did in the past doing JKD work, where we had to repidly jump from one thing to another, so, we had not time to wrap our hands before hitting the mitts (pads). I asked someone in boxing about this and they said, "Oh! NO you always wrap your hand before hitting anything."

Some boxers will at times only wrap their hands when working the heavy bag, and won't wear gloves. Their hands are protected. And they get greater "feed-back" because their is no gloved padding. "Feed-back" on impact allowing you to know if your knuckles are properly hitting the target. You can lose some of this fee-back with gloves on. Especially bigger 16 oz. or 18 oz. gloves.

 

[SuperCloud]

Here: A case example of knuckles (wrapped) vs padded gloves:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1207649/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl

Cornered: A Life Caught in the Ring (2008)

· On June 16, 1983, in front of a capacity crowd of 25,000 at Madison Square Garden, the lives of two young men were forever changed during a controversial boxing match. A tough club fighter from Puerto Rico named Luis Resto fought Billy Collins Jr., an Irish golden boy, for ten grueling rounds. Resto was declared the winner, but within minutes, was accused of tampering with the padding in his gloves - in effect brutalizing Collins Jr. with his bare fists for thirty minutes. More than two decades later, Luis Resto is still a broken man shouldering the burden of his opponent's death; a prison sentence; and a lifetime ban from boxing. Resto relives that infamous night in New York City and exposes the sport's dark side - unfolding an emotional story which finally reveals the truth.

- Written by Anonymous

Trailer.

Full.

 

[Ajax 777]

Boxing can be a test of endurance--like being sodomized.

Just out of morbid curiosity, how in the @$&?!!?! do you compare boxing to sodomy???

I'm almost afraid to ask, but outrage got the better of me. Sorry.

 

[bhsmte]

Just out of morbid curiosity, how in the @$&?!!?! do you compare boxing to sodomy???

I'm almost afraid to ask, but outrage got the better of me. Sorry.

I agree.

 

[FreeSpirit74]

I had a friend who used to compete in Martial Arts tournaments in Asia 40-50 years ago. No protection except for a cup. He also trained in Shotokan Karate in Okinawa - very tedious, technical training. Not like over here, where you can gain the next belt level months after earning your present one.

 

[SuperCloud]

Just out of morbid curiosity, how in the @$&?!!?! do you compare boxing to sodomy???

I'm almost afraid to ask, but outrage got the better of me. Sorry.

Been there done that. On both.

The analogy was for the leftist sodomy supporters. Injury occurs with sodomy too. Just ask proctologists. So, to support consensual anal violence whilst condemning consensual boxing violence hits with a little irony. The irony is increased when one appeals to justifying sodomy, anal violence, with the Theory of Evolution (e.g., anal violence was commissioned by "mother nature" [apparently an intelligent design entity] to keep human population growth under control etc.). And yet reject or dismiss fist violence, the development of karate or boxing techniques, as having any connection or explanation within the Theory of Evolution its (e.g., why certain traits survive or even thrive among a particular species).

So, for those that love, clap, and cheer for the consensual anal violence carried out in hetero or gay romances, and connect such "love" to a testament of endurance, then the Shoalin Buddhist monk with his Kung Fu violence is kind of similar in his feats of endurance. The boxer in his or her feats of endurance.



I can't say what it feels like to fly a plane (though I can say how it feels to fly as a passenger). Never done it. I've never scuba dived, so, I can't much speak on that either. Even though I've street fought with bare knuckles, it was never against high quality opponents like Irish bare knuckle fighters with wrapped hands. So, I can't speak much on bare knuckle fighting. I've never had both legs amputated and been confined to a wheelchair for years. So, I can't speak much on that.

What have I experienced that I can speak on?

Well... being sodomized. Many, many, many times wrapping my hands and putting on boxing gloves (although, my handwraps have been cotton and not the Mexican style with some elastic quality--therefore I personally can not review the difference). Wearing boxing gloves without handwraps and striking. Being shot multiple times with one in the abdomen (I know what that recovery from an ab gun shot feels like. Specifically from a .40). And for the record... what you see on TV shows, sitcoms or movies, pertaining to recovering from gun shot injuries is nothing even close to real life. At least not ab shots. But 9 out of 10 Western adults would probably vehemently object and accuse any person that actually recovered from ab gun shot surgeries of trying to be a "know it all." In real life you end up with a long vertical scar down the center of your abs. I know in my case they had me "under" for several days they said, and had my intestines pulled out. It's not simply taking prongs, putting in a hole, going 1 inch deep and pulling out a bullet. Wrapping the dude up and he jumps back on his feet and runs after bad guys again.

I know as a fact wrapping your hands--at least with a good wrapping--protects your hands. And not only that it allows you to punch harder. Been there done that (numerous times in this case--even with very novice experience).