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Baptismal Regeneration

Schroeder

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Then let it be taught as written and taught for 1500 years before the German wackadoodles invented an odd theory.
nothing to do with german wackadoodles it is about reading decerning scripture through the spirit. I dont need high priest or professors telling me what scripture says. who told them and them and so on. Is not the same spirit in me as in them. scripture interprets scripture.
 
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godenver1

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Agreed. No one to my knowledge is claiming that. However, through Baptism we receive many gifts from God, and to refuse Baptism after conversion is a sign of unbelief..

Hi, Tangible. :)

Would you agree with the following?

John Wesley retained the sacramental theology which he received from his Anglican heritage. He taught that in baptism a child was cleansed of the guilt of original sin, initiated into the covenant with God, admitted into the church, made an heir of the divine kingdom, and spiritually born anew. He said that while baptism was neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it was the "ordinary means" that God designated for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives.

From: By Water and the Spirit: A United Methodist Understanding of Baptism
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I've heard it said that Baptism is necessary, or essential, but not absolutely so. Baptism is the normal means of initial justification, but God has other means at his disposal, and Baptism is Gospel, not Law.
 
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godenver1

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"baptism in and of itself is not essential to salvation, however is 'apart' of salvation"

"It is the faith in baptism that saves (the Word), not the water"

and from Wesley (although I'm not a Methodist or Wesleyan)

"while baptism was neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it was the "ordinary means" that God designated for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives."

These statements are reconcilable with 'Luther's small cathechism'?
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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"baptism in and of itself is not essential to salvation, however is 'apart' of salvation"

"It is the faith in baptism that saves (the Word), not the water"

and from Wesley (although I'm not a Methodist or Wesleyan)

"while baptism was neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it was the "ordinary means" that God designated for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives."

These statements are reconcilable with 'Luther's small cathechism'?

Basically, yes. I think my only caveats would be 1. that it is both the Word and the element (the water) that makes a sacrament, which is an external, objective means of grace, as opposed to the Word alone which is also a means of grace but is applied subjectively through hearing, and 2. baptism is sufficient for salvation in infants, whose faith is entirely dependent on baptismal grace.
 
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MKJ

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"baptism in and of itself is not essential to salvation, however is 'apart' of salvation"

"It is the faith in baptism that saves (the Word), not the water"

and from Wesley (although I'm not a Methodist or Wesleyan)

"while baptism was neither essential to nor sufficient for salvation, it was the "ordinary means" that God designated for applying the benefits of the work of Christ in human lives."

These statements are reconcilable with 'Luther's small cathechism'?

I may be astray here, and if so I hope one of the Lutheran posters will correct me. But when I look at a question like this I think it is important to consider who the statement was made to, and for what purpose. Is it supposed to be a theological description of how we can be saved and the role baptism has in that? Or is it meant to give practical direction to an active Christian congregation?
 
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MKJ

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What would be the difference?

It is like the difference between given an explanation of a car engine to someone who was going to learn to be a mechanic, or even to a physicist, and setting down the rules for the kids in your home regarding them.

The rule for the kids is "don't touch them".

The explanation for the people who are interested in how they work or will be repairing them not only involves touching them, they actually get to take them apart.

In this case, the document, if it is meant for people in the Church, is giving them specific directions meant for their own use. What kind of church member would refuse baptism? It isn't necessarily meant to cover all of the theology of baptism, or tell what the fate of someone born on an island in teh middle of the Pacific Ocean would be.
 
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Tellastory

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So I was reading Ephesians 2 and came to the part about Christ putting to death "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" and so making peace between the Jew and the Gentile. Immediately, my Evangelical upbringing piped up and said, "See? Jesus put rtual to death! How can you say that baptism effects spiritual rebirth in the face of this? Faith, not works, remember?"

I answer myself that,
1. This is speaking precisely about the Mosaic law and its ordinances. It says nothing at all about the New Covenant.
2. The Bible does indeed say faith is the sine qua non of salvation. This does not mean that it is not worked out through anything, or that God cannot use tangible means to effect his purposes.
3. Faith is most certainly active in baptism. The convert is moved by faith to be baptized for the forgiveness of his sins, being buried with Christ and simultaneously putting him on in the washing of rebirth. Faith is also active when parents bring their babies for baptism to give them the same benefits, like the men lowering their friend through the roof.

Is this right? What do you all think?

Paul would have a problem with that.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God....21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Peter would agree with Paul.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Peter validated that it is by believing in Him is how one receives the remissions of sins and thereby granted the promise of the Holy Ghost which happened before they were baptized by water.

Alot of believers will point to Mark 16:16 for proof of the necessity of water baptism but they keep forgetting that the baptism with the Holy Ghost that Jesus gives at our salvation is the baptism Mark was referring to.

Even Peter referenced to baptism was not of water, but the answer of a good conscience which is by believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Peter's reference to water was symbolic and thus not actually referring to water baptism because water is used to put away the filth of the flesh and so it is the answer of a good coscience towards God which is believing the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To infer that Jesus cannot save anyone until they are water baptised is to declare Jesus as not the actual Saviour but Jesus & water baptism is, and if we lean on Him to get past centuries of church traditions, we can see that eorr as well as the truth that Jesus is able to save anyone without water baptism just by them believing in Him which He has said numerous times on how one is born again to Nicodemus.

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Believers need to place their hope on Jesus that He has saved them for that is the true testimony we are to have to the world & to those that err.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly,.....

As for infant baptism, I never understand why parents would never share the good news to their babies, seeing how they are a captive audience. They sing lullabyes to them but not "Amazing Grace" or "Jesus Loves me..." ? Is it not on God the Father to open their ears and eyes to understand the Good News to anyone?

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So having understanding of an adult is not a requirement for the Father to reveal His Son to us. May parents apply their faith in these passages and feel free to share the Good News to their infants because faith cannot come to an infant until by hearing the word of God.
 
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Schroeder

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Paul would have a problem with that.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God....21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Peter would agree with Paul.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Peter validated that it is by believing in Him is how one receives the remissions of sins and thereby granted the promise of the Holy Ghost which happened before they were baptized by water.

Alot of believers will point to Mark 16:16 for proof of the necessity of water baptism but they keep forgetting that the baptism with the Holy Ghost that Jesus gives at our salvation is the baptism Mark was referring to.

Even Peter referenced to baptism was not of water, but the answer of a good conscience which is by believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Peter's reference to water was symbolic and thus not actually referring to water baptism because water is used to put away the filth of the flesh and so it is the answer of a good coscience towards God which is believing the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To infer that Jesus cannot save anyone until they are water baptised is to declare Jesus as not the actual Saviour but Jesus & water baptism is, and if we lean on Him to get past centuries of church traditions, we can see that eorr as well as the truth that Jesus is able to save anyone without water baptism just by them believing in Him which He has said numerous times on how one is born again to Nicodemus.

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Believers need to place their hope on Jesus that He has saved them for that is the true testimony we are to have to the world & to those that err.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly,.....

As for infant baptism, I never understand why parents would never share the good news to their babies, seeing how they are a captive audience. They sing lullabyes to them but not "Amazing Grace" or "Jesus Loves me..." ? Is it not on God the Father to open their ears and eyes to understand the Good News to anyone?

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So having understanding of an adult is not a requirement for the Father to reveal His Son to us. May parents apply their faith in these passages and feel free to share the Good News to their infants because faith cannot come to an infant until by hearing the word of God.
good stuff but i have spoke this truth plenty. But they are thick headed. Ha ha.
 
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So I was reading Ephesians 2 and came to the part about Christ putting to death "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" and so making peace between the Jew and the Gentile. Immediately, my Evangelical upbringing piped up and said, "See? Jesus put rtual to death! How can you say that baptism effects spiritual rebirth in the face of this? Faith, not works, remember?"

I answer myself that,
1. This is speaking precisely about the Mosaic law and its ordinances. It says nothing at all about the New Covenant.
2. The Bible does indeed say faith is the sine qua non of salvation. This does not mean that it is not worked out through anything, or that God cannot use tangible means to effect his purposes.
3. Faith is most certainly active in baptism. The convert is moved by faith to be baptized for the forgiveness of his sins, being buried with Christ and simultaneously putting him on in the washing of rebirth. Faith is also active when parents bring their babies for baptism to give them the same benefits, like the men lowering their friend through the roof.

Is this right? What do you all think?

Rather than my opinion, what does Paul say?

Rom 6:3-4 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with
Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the
dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness
of life.

And that's about what you said.
 
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Rick Otto

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So I was reading Ephesians 2 and came to the part about Christ putting to death "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" and so making peace between the Jew and the Gentile. Immediately, my Evangelical upbringing piped up and said, "See? Jesus put rtual to death! How can you say that baptism effects spiritual rebirth in the face of this? Faith, not works, remember?"

I answer myself that,
1. This is speaking precisely about the Mosaic law and its ordinances. It says nothing at all about the New Covenant.
2. The Bible does indeed say faith is the sine qua non of salvation. This does not mean that it is not worked out through anything, or that God cannot use tangible means to effect his purposes.
3. Faith is most certainly active in baptism. The convert is moved by faith to be baptized for the forgiveness of his sins, being buried with Christ and simultaneously putting him on in the washing of rebirth. Faith is also active when parents bring their babies for baptism to give them the same benefits, like the men lowering their friend through the roof.

Is this right? What do you all think?
Well, it is a statement regarding the NT in my opinion.
And you're right tangible means are used, but instructively, not miraculously.
...That's what I think.
 
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Rick Otto

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Physical means used by God to convey his gift of salvation: Human vocal organs, sound waves, auditory organs, paper, ink, electrons, computer screens, water, bread and wine.
All creation declares the glory (gospel) of God:

Psalm 19:
1: The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
[2] Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
[3] There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
[4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
[5] Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
[6] His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
 
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Tangible

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All of creation declares the glory of God. This is law, not gospel. Ultimately natural revelation only reveals that God exists, and that we are sinners.

The gospel must be revealed to us from God.

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son...

Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ...

Take, eat. This is my body broken for you. Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
 
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