Awake Or Asleep?

[Mark Quayle]

I haven't done the bible study on this topic, but it's one I said one day I would like to do with more time. There appears to be enough evidence to support both views. When I come across this I realize that it's neither one or the other, but how one fits into the other.

I have my perspective, but it is not one where I've completed a bible study on it.

Of now i believe when we die our spirits are joined with the Lord. I believe our bodies are resurrected when he returns and rules in the new heaven and earth. All things made new.

As i said though, haven't done the prayerful study as not on my priority list now, but I would just recommend to understand the scriptures in regards to how they fit within each other.

We so often want to take what fits our view and disregard the others that don't, but it is more a matter of how they fit together.

Kind of reminds me of a call to a radio talk-show where the caller said something like, "We have these different views, and there's the left and the right views, when actually the truth is probably somewhere in the middle." Fact is, that thinking is wrong. The truth is only what it is, and all opinion arrays itself around the truth.

Neither opinion is right, but both are only ways to look at the question. PARTICULARLY concerning scripture, our understanding necessarily falls short, and what's more, our descriptions don't quite even do our comprehension justice, nor does what the reader gleans from what we write or say going to be quite what we meant.

We won't KNOW "until we see him as he is".

 

[Jo555]

I haven't done the bible study on this topic, but it's one I said one day I would like to do with more time. But now there appears to be enough evidence to support both views. When I come across this I realize that it's neither one or the other, but how one fits into the other.

I have my perspective, but it is not one where I've completed a bible study on it.

Of now i believe when we die our spirits are joined with the Lord. I believe our bodies are resurrected when he returns and rules in the new heaven and earth. All things made new.

As i said though, haven't done the prayerful study as not on my priority list now, but I would just recommend to understand the scriptures and regards to how they fit within each other

Kind of reminds me of a call to a radio talk-show where the caller said something like, "We have these different views, and there's the left and the right views, when actually the truth is probably somewhere in the middle." Fact is, that thinking is wrong. The truth is only what it is, and all opinion arrays itself around the truth.

Neither opinion is right, but both are only ways to look at the question. PARTICULARLY concerning scripture, our understanding necessarily falls short, and what's more, our descriptions don't quite even do our comprehension justice, nor does what the reader gleans from what we write or say going to be quite what we meant.

We won't KNOW "until we see him as he is".

Kind of reminds me of a call to a radio talk-show where the caller said something like, "We have these different views, and there's the left and the right views, when actually the truth is probably somewhere in the middle." Fact is, that thinking is wrong. The truth is only what it is, and all opinion arrays itself around the truth.

Neither opinion is right, but both are only ways to look at the question. PARTICULARLY concerning scripture, our understanding necessarily falls short, and what's more, our descriptions don't quite even do our comprehension justice, nor does what the reader gleans from what we write or say going to be quite what we meant.

We won't KNOW "until we see him as he is".

Well, if you want to take apart what i said. Of course one can have a wrong view. One without the other is a wrong view, but i often find there to be truth in both views ... Not that it is COMPLETELY true, but truth can be found in both views.

Can one view can be completely off. Of course. Think you missed my point, but that's ok.

 

[Jo555]

Thanks for being honest about your knowledge of scripture.
Perhaps you can study right now.
Is it the body that God resurrects, or the person?
The answer can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:35-49

I'll be back later, to see what you found.
Thank you.

Looked at the scripture and it is a bit confusing. I'll have to look at it with more time and in context. Right now I'm short on time and don't care to rush these things if i haven't taken the time for prayerful study. Appreciate the reference and will look into it with more time to see if He lights the bulb

 

[Mark Quayle]

I haven't done the bible study on this topic, but it's one I said one day I would like to do with more time. But now there appears to be enough evidence to support both views. When I come across this I realize that it's neither one or the other, but how one fits into the other.

I have my perspective, but it is not one where I've completed a bible study on it.

Of now i believe when we die our spirits are joined with the Lord. I believe our bodies are resurrected when he returns and rules in the new heaven and earth. All things made new.

As i said though, haven't done the prayerful study as not on my priority list now, but I would just recommend to understand the scriptures and regards to how they fit within each other



Well, if you want to take apart what i said. Of course one can have a wrong view. One without the other is a wrong view, but i often find there to be truth in both views ... Not that it is COMPLETELY true, but truth can be found in both views.

Can one view can be completely off. Of course. Think you missed my point, but that's ok.

No, I don't think I missed your point. Nor did I intend to take it apart. In fact, I pointed out that if one view is wrong, so is mine, though there may be something to any of them.

That doesn't mean they are all equally good —after all, I like mine better than I like yours! — but that all of them fall short of God's view.

But actually, I liked your post, where you admit that your view may not be right, and I took that occasion to agree with the sentiment —in fact that all views fall short.

If there's anyone here I can't agree with to some degree as to their presentation of the facts, it is @CoreyD , who seems locked into "temporal integrity." I don't think God operates according to our notions of basic fact, and in particular, in this context, our notions of time.

 

[eleos1954]

Soul sleep. Are you for, or against it?
Which side is Jesus for, and does the Bible support soul sleep?

Matthew 9:18-25
While He was saying these things to them, a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.”
So Jesus got up and went with him, along with His disciples.

When Jesus came into the official’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd in noisy disorder, He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.
After the crowd had been put outside, Jesus went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.

John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.”
However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,"

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Acts 7:58-60
When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their cloaks at the feet of a young man named Saul.
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
Then he fell on his knees and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Jesus said that the person - soul (nephesh), (psuché) - that has died, is asleep - sleeping, in death.
Various other scriptures in the Bible refer to the the state of the person whom have died, as being asleep - sleeping in death.

I think we can put this one to rest.

We are MORTAL (subject to death) until Jesus returns, the bible is very clear on this. We do not possess a "immortal spirit" of some kind.

We are subject to 2 deaths ... the 2nd death is for death (non existence) for eternity, if we are in Christ we are covered by His blood and will not suffer the 2nd death ... but rather resurrected unto eternal life.

Death is described as a sleep ... because one day ALL will be resurrected some to eternal life ... some to eternal death.

It's about life or death for eternity. The word of God is very clear about it.

 

[CoreyD]

I never claimed they were in heaven.

Sorry. Can you please explain why you quoted Paul, about being absent from the body, and present with the Lord.

If I do, will you answer my questions?

Are you saying you do not want to answer this question either?
Remember that your answering the question, demonstrates you do not see the contradiction in your statement and the scriptures.
So to not answer the question is an admittance, that you do see the contradiction, but do not want to acknowledge it.

Regarding your question, you will recall that in post #5, in response to your stating that sleep is just a metaphor, and adding that 'Paul says, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."', I asked...
Are you saying that "sleep is just a metaphor" for being present with the Lord?
Did Jesus say that? Or did Jesus say sleep is equivalent to death?

Do you recall that you did not answer either of those questions.
If anyone deserves an answer to their question, it would be me, wouldn't it.

In fact they were four more questions that carried the same relevance, and you chose to answer none.
However, my question, and the answer to it, answered any question you would raise about your opinion on what you believe Paul meant at 2 Corinthians 5:8, because Jesus explained the use of the term sleep, and he said, it is death.

A metaphor is defined as a figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in “a sea of troubles” or One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol.
If you are saying that death was not the equivalence of sleep, then you need to tell us outright that you do not agree with Jesus, and the scriptures in the OP has no significance.

Along with that, I want to get back to "your question".
Is this the question you want me to answer?
So, there is an apparent contradiction in how you interpret scripture. How do you resolve this conflict?
I answered that question.

So, did you want me to answer another question?
I will answer any question you have, after you answer every question you did not answer.
That would be fair. Would you agree?

 

[CoreyD]

1 Corinthians 15:45-46
"So it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual."

How do you suppose our body is changed into a spiritual body if the physical body is destroyed? What is there to replace the physical body?

Why did you quote those verses in response to the question - Is it the body that God resurrects, or the person?
Are those verses where you find the answer to the question, or are you seeking an answer to a question of your own?

Can I answer your question, after you answer the question?
Can we do that? Is that okay with you?

 

[CoreyD]

Disclaimer: In my years of knowing God, I constantly see in my descriptions of how I see things, in spite of all the logical necessities and mental structures I build, that there is always more that I didn't know than what I had thought before. I may be right, but if so, only in part. What I try to present here is only another way to look at it, and necessarily falls short of the facts.

I appreciate that.
It's always good when trying to work things out on our own, to recognize our limitations.

Scriptures are replete with metaphor and symbolism. These aren't lies.

Funny thing about scriptures, that often the things we take for metaphor and symbolism and even anthropomorphism, are actually true as written. The problem is that we see them backwards. For example, we hear of the pearly gates, and imagine a great pearl. Maybe it is a great pearl, and OUR silly little things are only symbolic of it. After all, we already should know that if God is the Father, our fathers only in part resemble him. Do we know what the "hand of God" is?

What makes us think we know what sleep is? All we have is our experience of it.

Say you were walking with Jesus, and he said “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.”, or “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.”, would your mind wander off into a fantasy world of what sleep is, or would you relate it to sleep?

Why did Jesus use things people can relate to?
Was it not to help them grasp the concept of what he equates it with?
So, when he then says out right... “Lazarus is dead,", would you not then get the connection?

Your questions were circular. You ask a question that still depends on time, as though it is self-contradictory to deny the point. It only is self-contradictory if one assumes a logistical validity to the 'before and after' of the two events. Your question is mistaken. The little girl died and came back to life, 1) from our point of view with a period of time between the two events, but 2) from God's point of view, just as instantaneous as for him to speak it into fact. God is not subject to time, nor is what he does, unless he makes it subject to time.

And God can do that. My guess is that, for example, when Jesus is transfigured on the hill, those he spoke with were brought back from Heaven and not from 'sleep' nor instantaneously from the moment of their passing. Also, hard to say about dead Samuel when he shows up to tell King Saul what's what. He seemed rather grumpy about it, to me.

Consider that for Lazarus, more than 3 days gone, it was gone-and-back, with no time passage. "Sleeping in death" is a good way to think of it, if we can't quite fit it into our heads that time is only a tool God uses to accomplish his purposes.

A sort of parallel, to show that "sleep" is only a concept we use to describe our experience of it: The anesthesiologist put me out, and when I woke up, I felt no time had passed, although I was not puzzled, but only curious. I didn't sleep —I was OUT!

If that works for you, I do not want to interject.
Just remember that it is your opinion, as the scriptures do not say these things. ...and that's okay, if we are struggling on our own, but willing to get help, and allow for adjustment... from the scriptures.

You said at the start "there is always more that I didn't know than what I had thought before. I may be right, but if so, only in part". So, if that means you are willing to be corrected... by the scriptures, then certainly, I commend you for leaving the door opened.

According to the scriptures, you are partially right, but still wrong.
I hope that helps a bit, but where there is time, there is hope.

 

[CoreyD]

Kind of reminds me of a call to a radio talk-show where the caller said something like, "We have these different views, and there's the left and the right views, when actually the truth is probably somewhere in the middle." Fact is, that thinking is wrong. The truth is only what it is, and all opinion arrays itself around the truth.

Neither opinion is right, but both are only ways to look at the question. PARTICULARLY concerning scripture, our understanding necessarily falls short, and what's more, our descriptions don't quite even do our comprehension justice, nor does what the reader gleans from what we write or say going to be quite what we meant.

We won't KNOW "until we see him as he is".

I just want to be sure.
Are you saying that these statements in the following scriptures, are not quite accurate, or not what they are really conveying as read by us?
John 8:31, 32, John 17:17; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 2:3, 4;

I'm trying to understand what you are saying precisely, so that I may respond, not to what I think you are saying, but what you are saying exactly.

 

[CoreyD]

Well, if you want to take apart what i said. Of course one can have a wrong view. One without the other is a wrong view, but i often find there to be truth in both views ... Not that it is COMPLETELY true, but truth can be found in both views.

Can one view can be completely off. Of course. Think you missed my point, but that's ok.

I believe you are saying there is some truth in both views. I hope I understand you correctly.
What if the two views conflict, or contradict, can there be truth in both views?

 

[Jo555]

I believe you are saying there is some truth in both views. I hope I understand you correctly.
What if the two views conflict, or contradict, can there be truth in both views?

I believe you are saying there is some truth in both views. I hope I understand you correctly.
What if the two views conflict, or contradict, can there be truth in both views?

Yes, but that would depend on how you see it. Some may see it wrong and want to toss it. And that may be necessary. Although, i often find that it doesn't have to be discarded, but understood in its place in Christ

For instance, some believe in freewill, others don't believe that we really have it.

The way i see it is that yes, we have freewill, but it can only be exercises within God's overall will.

So i see God's will like a large circle and man's will within that circle. We can only exercise our will within the boundaries of God's overall will, and how we exercise our will, will affect our lives, but only within the boundaries of God's overall will.

Some believe the law still applies, some don't. I say it's both. The law's jurisdiction is the carnal life. Believers are crucified with Christ and born anew. The law does not apply to life in the Spirit. Yet, if you give into your flesh and punch someone and they get hurt, they can press charges and you will have to answer to the law. It doesn't affect your spirit, but it will affect your physical life. You may even lose your freedom for awhile.

So i may have opened up a can of worms as i picked two heavily debated topics, but i can find truth in many things, as i see how it relates to our lives in Christ. Sure, if it doesn't find its home in Christ it is off. Everything needs to find its home in Christ.

 

[Jo555]

And i haven't done the prayerful study on sleep or straight to heaven when we pass, but have my perspective of now on that, which i understand may be off as, haven't done the study.

Can't speak on the opinions here as to on or off as haven't done the prayerful study. Just wanted to chime in with my view of now and encourage each other to not hastily toss out things that may fit, but needs to be properly fitted.

 

[CoreyD]

Looked at the scripture and it is a bit confusing. I'll have to look at it with more time and in context. Right now I'm short on time and don't care to rush these things if i haven't taken the time for prayerful study. Appreciate the reference and will look into it with more time to see if He lights the bulb

Bible study carries the idea of studying what the Bible says, and so while things can look confusing at first, it just takes time to look at it carefully, and study it.. like we would when fixing puzzle pieces laid out before us.
So, take as much time as you want.
Even if you don't get it at first, don't worry. With someone to assist you, you will get it.
I'd be more than happy to lend that assistance.

 

[Jo555]

Bible study carries the idea of studying what the Bible says, and so while things can look confusing at first, it just takes time to look at it carefully, and study it.. like we would when fixing puzzle pieces laid out before us.
So, take as much time as you want.
Even if you don't get it at first, don't worry. With someone to assist you, you will get it.
I'd be more than happy to lend that assistance.

Exactly. I was thinking of puzzle pieces too. The big picture is Jesus, in Him all things created. We need to take that puzzle piece and with the Lord, and as He would use others, see how it fits in Him.

Thanks Corey. Doing the last minute holiday prep, but hope to dive in soon.

 

[Jo555]

Exactly. I was thinking of puzzle pieces too. The big picture is Jesus, in Him all things created. We need to take that puzzle piece and with the Lord, and as He would use others, see how it fits in Him.

Thanks Corey. Doing the last minute holiday prep, but hope to dive in soon.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes, but that would depend on how you see it. Some may see it wrong and want to toss it. And that may be necessary. Although, i often find that it doesn't have to be discarded, but understood in its place in Christ

For instance, some believe in freewill, others don't believe that we really have it.

The way i see it is that yes, we have freewill, but it can only be exercises within God's overall will.

So i see God's will like a large circle and man's will within that circle. We can only exercise our will within the boundaries of God's overall will, and how we exercise our will, will affect our lives, but only within the boundaries of God's overall will.

Some believe the law still applies, some don't. I say it's both. The law's jurisdiction is the carnal life. Believers are crucified with Christ and born anew. The law does not apply to life in the Spirit. Yet, if you give into your flesh and punch someone and they get hurt, they can press charges and you will have to answer to the law. It doesn't affect your spirit, but it will affect your physical life. You may even lose your freedom for awhile.

So i may have opened up a can of worms as i picked two heavily debated topics, but i can find truth in many things, as i see how it relates to our lives in Christ. Sure, if it doesn't find its home in Christ it is off. Everything needs to find its home in Christ.

I don't blame you for thinking as you do. It's not your fault.
The fault lies with the churches that have not only failed to teach the truth, but have watered it down. In other words, diminished it's value.
Paul describes it as tickling the ear. 2 Timothy 4:3, 4

So, today, people do not believe that anyone knows the truth of God's word, so it's a case of "my truth and your truth... one is just as good as the other".
That thinking exists, not only among religious people, but it is actually a worldly philosophy.

Hence, we have all sorts of rights, and what was once considered, dead wrong, or perverted, has now become a "lifestyle choice". It would not surprise us if certain other things become a lifestyle choice for other, and be accepted.

That's another topic though.
The truth is, there are not many truths. There is only one.
While God wants us to come to that correct truth (1 Timothy 2:3, 4), it may take time getting there, but it does not mean there are many roads with that truth. There is just one road that leads to life. Matthew 7:13, 14
Those who are on that road, know the truth, because that is the only way to get on that road. John 8:31, 32

If we do not know the truth, and think we have to wait until the end to know it, we have actually misled ourselves into thinking that we are on the road to life. Matthew 15:14
Consider what God tells us about the truth, at 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12

Anyway, II don't want to go off topic, so let's get back to the subject of soul sleep.

 

[CoreyD]

And i haven't done the prayerful study on sleep or straight to heaven when we pass, but have my perspective of now on that, which i understand may be off as, haven't done the study.

Can't speak on the opinions here as to on or off as haven't done the prayerful study. Just wanted to chime in with my view of now and encourage each other to not hastily toss out things that may fit, but needs to be properly fitted.

I think that is a problem.
Bible study is not about giving different views, and seeing which sounds good, or is best.
Again, this is not your fault.

A proper Bible study takes this form:

1. Study a topic, or question on a topic
2. Find out the Bible's view regarding that topic is, by considering the scriptures on that subject
3. Once we have a conclusive answer, there, we have one block in place, on which we can build on.

That way, we aren't just throwing mortar and stone anywhere, and then moving them when they don't fit out perceived ideas.

So, for example, 1) Question: What is the state of the dead? 2) BOOM! Bible answer given. 3) Good. Now build on that.
Don't throw away the Bible's answer when we find something that fits what we believe.

Here is an example, that's quite common.

1. 
   Question: What is the state of the dead?
2. 
   BOOM! Bible answer: They sleep in the grave, and are not conscious of anything because their thoughts have perished. Daniel 12:2; Ecclesiastes 5:9, 10; Psalm 146:4
   
   • 
     Throwing the Brick away to fit our preconceived ideas: But wait, weren't the rich man and Lazarus alive and conscious? But wait, didn't Samuel rise up in the grave, and talk to Saul? So, the soul is conscious, and does not die.
3. Building on the foundation laid: Since the dead are asleep, and not conscious, but wait until they are resurrected...
   Samuel was dead. He could not talk to Saul. So look at the facts.. be a real detective.
   • Saul went to a sorcerer, which God condemns.
   • God did not speak to Saul. neither did Samuel, when alive.
   If you are a good investigator, you are on your way to understanding the truth of the Bible.
   The sorcerer communicated with a wicked spirit that then communicated with Saul. BOOM. That's what happens, when you get involved with what God tells you to avoid. You get misled. Case Closed
   
   As for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it's an illustration - an analogy. End of story.

You think... That's not the end of the story for some. They will argue till the cows come home. Something must be wrong with the scriptures you presented. At that point, move on. You will get nowhere. They are fixed in their preconceived idea.

A proper Bible study get you the Bible's answer, rather than the multiplicity of ideas being thrown around, like if they came from heaven.

 

[CoreyD]

Exactly. I was thinking of puzzle pieces too. The big picture is Jesus, in Him all things created. We need to take that puzzle piece and with the Lord, and as He would use others, see how it fits in Him.

Thanks Corey. Doing the last minute holiday prep, but hope to dive in soon.

I think you need to start from scratch, if you are going to fix the puzzle correctly.
Someone may have squeezed a piece into place that does not belong there.

 

[All Becomes New]

Sorry. Can you please explain why you quoted Paul, about being absent from the body, and present with the Lord.

I am making a more modest claim than saying that if you die, you go to heaven. You have assumed my position and then are arguing against a straw man.

Are you saying you do not want to answer this question either?

You have not answered any of my questions.

Do you recall that you did not answer either of those questions.
If anyone deserves an answer to their question, it would be me, wouldn't it.

I went so far as to grant your point and then argue against that position.

Are you saying that "sleep is just a metaphor" for being present with the Lord?

Yes, as I have already said in my first post.

Did Jesus say that? Or did Jesus say sleep is equivalent to death?

Many metaphors in the Bible don't come right out and say, "This is a metaphor," and we should not expect the Bible to do that.

then you need to tell us outright that you do not agree with Jesus

I don't. You have your own version of what you think Jesus said. I don't disagree with anything that Jesus said.

I answered that question.

No, this is a lie.

 

[Jo555]

I think that is a problem.
Bible study is not about giving different views, and seeing which sounds good, or is best.
Again, this is not your fault.

A proper Bible study takes this form:

1. Study a topic, or question on a topic
2. Find out the Bible's view regarding that topic is, by considering the scriptures on that subject
3. Once we have a conclusive answer, there, we have one block in place, on which we can build on.

That way, we aren't just throwing mortar and stone anywhere, and then moving them when they don't fit out perceived ideas.

So, for example, 1) Question: What is the state of the dead? 2) BOOM! Bible answer given. 3) Good. Now build on that.
Don't throw away the Bible's answer when we find something that fits what we believe.

Here is an example, that's quite common.

1. 
   Question: What is the state of the dead?
2. 
   BOOM! Bible answer: They sleep in the grave, and are not conscious of anything because their thoughts have perished. Daniel 12:2; Ecclesiastes 5:9, 10; Psalm 146:4
   • 
     Throwing the Brick away to fit our preconceived ideas: But wait, weren't the rich man and Lazarus alive and conscious? But wait, didn't Samuel rise up in the grave, and talk to Saul? So, the soul is conscious, and does not die.
3. Building on the foundation laid: Since the dead are asleep, and not conscious, but wait until they are resurrected...
   Samuel was dead. He could not talk to Saul. So look at the facts.. be a real detective.
   • Saul went to a sorcerer, which God condemns.
   • God did not speak to Saul. neither did Samuel, when alive.
   If you are a good investigator, you are on your way to understanding the truth of the Bible.
   The sorcerer communicated with a wicked spirit that then communicated with Saul. BOOM. That's what happens, when you get involved with what God tells you to avoid. You get misled. Case Closed
   
   As for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it's an illustration - an analogy. End of story.

You think... That's not the end of the story for some. They will argue till the cows come home. Something must be wrong with the scriptures you presented. At that point, move on. You will get nowhere. They are fixed in their preconceived idea.

A proper Bible study get you the Bible's answer, rather than the multiplicity of ideas being thrown around, like if they came from heaven.

I agree it isn't about just my view. That is why i call it my perspective which i admit may be wrong as I haven't done a proper bible study with the Lord, and others on it.

No one is advocating for a multiple of ideas, but many do quote scripture that, initially, can appear to contradict other scripture. It just needs to be understood within context of the overall picture in Christ. And, we need to rely on the Lord and his Spirit to reveal it.