Are you Vineyard?

[Jim B]

I would like to open a thread for users who are Vineyard or interested in Vineyard churches or for those who may have questions about the Association of Vineyard Churches. While I am no authority on the Vineyard movement, I know that there are many who are and who would be able to shed some light on one of the fastest growing church planting denominations in the USA.

If you are Vineyard or have an observation or opinion about the movement, I would love to hear from you on this thread.

 

[Godzman]

I would like to open a thread for users who are Vineyard or interested in Vineyard churches or for those who may have questions about the Association of Vineyard Churches. While I am no authority on the Vineyard movement, I know that there are many who are and who would be able to shed some light on one of the fastest growing church planting denominations in the USA.

If you are Vineyard or have an observation or opinion about the movement, I would love to hear from you on this thread.

I am Assembly of God, but I have gone to the Vinyard Bible Study on sunday nights at the church in my hometown, and I really enjoyed it. I think the Vinyard seems to be more seeker friendly, which isn't neccesarily a bad thing all the time.

I like the church, its not as pentecostal as I am but I still enjoy it alot

 

[Lottedah]

I went to a vineyard a few times.. they are very cool but spiritually they are just in the milk stage..
i think its a good place for baby christians

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I was part of Vineyard for about 15 years. . .I was a worship leader at a small fellowship and also the Childrens worship leader at a larger one.. .Loved it.

 

[Jim B]

Hi Lottedah (I love your handle).

You said

I went to a vineyard a few times.. they are very cool but spiritually they are just in the milk stage..
i think its a good place for baby christians

Baby Christians need a church, too!!

I have heard this before, and actually said it myself before becoming a Vineyardite (or is it Vineyardian) myself. However, on closer inspection I have discovered that there is a lot of depth in many Vineyard churches. As a rule, they are not as focused on “doctrine” as they are on, say, “values,” but there is a new emphasis on theology among the Vineyard pastors I associate with who read some pretty deep stuff (ie, George Eldon Ladd, N.T. Wright, etc.)

You can’t always judge the whole by the part, of course. Remember the story of the blind men who were trying to figure out what an elephant was: one thought it was a snake because he felt its trunk; another thought it was a tree because it felt its leg; one though it was [something I can’t remember] when he felt its tail? In other words, it is impossible to see an entire denomination by only attending only one or two churches.

Try again. We’re trying to do better.

 

[Lottedah]

True.. my parents go there now so I wouldnt set foot in the place. lol.
They were blessed happy people but I am called to the deep fighting interceeding level they are apparently not called to yet. Though at their church there are some prophets and closet charismatics lol who are going to bring something out soon that will bless them more. So I am hopeful for them.

But I do enjoy the sermons the pastor does on movies he sees sometimes as illustrations.. I think its a brilliant idea. I just want to see more intercession, and deliverance, healing and prophetic going on with all that joy and dancing and playfulness. I think theres a balance to attain.

 

[Shannonkish]

I attend Vineyard Christiand Fellowship of Milan. I attended Vineyard in Tyler for a while... In Tyler it was very much the milk stage... however in Milan it is very much meat.. I love it. it is the first church that I have attended that actually requires me to use my college education to think and to learn for myself... It is awesome!

 

[victoryword]

Never been to a Vineyard church but I have read some of the books by Wimber, Jack Deere, Ken Blue, and some of the position papers by people like Rich Nathan. I have even read many of the writings in "The Kingdom and the Power" written by Vineyard pastors.

Jack Deere has written an excellent book refuting cessationism that seems to be the standard textbook used by Vineyarders and Pentecostals (See Is The Miraculous For Today: Four Views edited by Wayne Grudem for an example of how Deere's book is always referenced among the Third Wavers and Pentecostals). Rightfully so since most Pentecostals have not produced a decent apologetic work against cessationism since Carl Brumback's classic work, "What Meaneth This".

Also, Rich Nathan's position paper in which he refutes John MacArthur's cessationist position is very good though I think he relied too much on D. A. Carson's Exegetical Fallacies. Nevertheless, he did a good job. Wayne Grudem's article in The Kingdom and the Power dealing with common objections to the gifts was great. There were one or two others in the book that I liked, like one that showed the truth that John 14:12 indeed dealt with MIRACLES, refuting the watered down interpretation of some cessationists. I could have done without most of the other writings in the book though.

Now that was the good, here is the negative ...

Many in the Vineyard seem to want to compromise the truth concerning healing and deliverance in order to appeal to the Evangelical community. As many of them claim, they want to be evangelical while still believing in the miraculous for today. The implication of course is that other Charismatics, especially ones of a certain movement, are NOT Evangelical.

People like Ken Blue and others in the Vineyard like to take shots at the Word-Faith Movement in some wild attempt to validate their own [unscriptural] position on divine healing. This stuff about "It's always God's will to heal, but sometimes the ultimate healing is only when you get to heaven" cannot be validated by the Word and is nothing more than a COMPROMISE to excuse our lack of faith and power. They may think it brings comfort to some but what it really does is cause some to lose their zeal to fight for their healing. Those who lose a loved one through sickness can become angry with God for waiting until that loved one got to Heaven before God healed him/her.

But I want to end this post on a POSITIVE. I believe that John Wimber was truly a man of God, used by God to help thousands. I truly thank God for him and believe that he did make a difference in this world. May God richly reward him for his service done on the earth.

 

[Jim B]

Wow, victoryword, I can see you are an openminded seeker. The Vineyard is a realatively yourng group that probably still has a lot of kinks to work out, but I think we are really trying to find the “radical middle” between Evangelicals and Charismatics who do not always understand each other as well as they should. I really do think we are trying and it is the niche to which God has called us. No church or denomination is for everybody, of course, and we may appear to be compromising to some but we are continuing, I think, to find our way.

I for one appreciate honest people like you who offer your objections in such a welcoming manner and do not forget to mention the good along with the bad things you see.

 

[victoryword]

Thanks for the kind response Jim B.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

When I left the AG, it was to Vineyard I went. The music was what drew me the most. The Pastor at the time was John McClure and the church was probably over 1000 in attendance. The teaching was meat and I learned a lot.

I became aquanted w/Vineyard through my foot doctor who had invited me to a Kinship (home fellowship) at his home. I attended that for about 3 months before I made the change from AG to there. My first visit to the main service itself I knew it was where God was leading me. I remember approaching Pastor John after the service to ask him some questions. He was an extremely gracious man and to this day I think of him highly.

I had attended there for about a year, when Pastor McClure felt the leading of the Lord to take the Pastorship at another Vineyard. Remembering back to the horrific ordeal I had experienced in the AG church with one Pastor resigning and another coming in, I thought "Oh, no. . .what kind of uproar is this gonna be". However, I was pleasently surprised when Pastor McClure simply handed it over to the Asst. Pastor Bob Oliver. I thought, "geeze, how easy was that?" I found Pastor Oliver to be equilly as gracious. It was under his pastoring that I led the children's worship and did a few children's musicals.

When I had to move too far to attend there anymore, the new town I moved to had a very small and struggling Vineyard. It was there that I helped on a worship team.

I have high regards for Vineyard. If I lived near enough to the one in Orlando, and the Lord would let me that is where I would be.

Two of my room-mates at the time attended the Anaheim Vineyard where John Wimber was the Pastor. I would occasionaly attend there. I can't say I remember a whole lot about doctrine but it was there that I first was introduced to the idea of "demonization". Being a good AG I rejected it immediately. . .it just took awhile for me to understand what was actually being said and not what my immediate thought of what was being said. I don't think any church I've ever attended did I totally agree with everything. And that's OK.

I do recommend Vineyard to a lot of people.

 

[cherokeehippie]

I've been in a Vineyard fellowship, but briefly, and I loved it. I especially loved the alternative, nonreligious way of loving the Lord. There was a Vineyard in Tucson that had everyone sit at tables, instead of rows of chairs or pews. I loved the cell groups. They had a cell group somewhere in town that met all thru out the week, I would visit 2 of them. (Just a little on my background: I came out of evangelical into charismatic, and I enjoyed Vineyard because to me they weren't religious or like the people on tbn, just 'normal people' who flowed in the gifts. I even got to visit MetroVinyard in Kansas City(when Mike Bickle was pastor)-at a conference and I loved it. To me, that was meat! Later I was in a very prophetic Messianic congregation--but that's getting on a different subject altogether. Later, I realize there's different Vineyards, some are more meatier than others. Lara

 

[Jim B]

I have attended no less than a dozen Vineyards myself before launching our new V. church plant here in East Texas (Nacogdoches) last year and you are right, they are different, but not radically so. Just like any child in a family, each is unique but they all seem to share some similarities (after all they have a similar DNA!) If you were dropped into a Vineyard church you could probably tell within minutes that it was a Vineyard. It might look different from other V’s but you could tell. Perhaps the one uniting factor in most (if not all) Vineyard churches is the unique style of worship – contemporary, vertical, and user-friendly.

FYI, c.hippie, the Metro Vineyard and Mike Bickle is no longer in the Vineyard. The church is now called Metro Christian Fellowship. Their leaving, I think, was friendly. It had something to do with some philosophical difference between him and John Wimber or the AVC. I'm not sure what it was all about but it was all covered objectively in Bill Jackson's book, The Quest for the Radical Middle, A History of the Vineyard.

 

[altya]

I haven't seen a Vineyard in SA but I do buy their music and love it. They surly do know how to praise and worship God!

 

[Jim B]

altya wrote:

I haven't seen a Vineyard in SA ...

If SA is San Antonio, there’s a Vineyard in your city. There website is http://www.vineyardsa.org/. Check 'em out.

The easiest way (online) to find a Vineyard church near you is at http://www.vineyardusa.org/churches/churches_index.htm.

 

[altya]

No, South Africa. Thanks anyway

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I have attended no less than a dozen Vineyards myself before launching our new V. church plant here in East Texas (Nacogdoches) last year and you are right, they are different, but not radically so. Just like any child in a family, each is unique but they all seem to share some similarities (after all they have a similar DNA!) If you were dropped into a Vineyard church you could probably tell within minutes that it was a Vineyard. It might look different from other V’s but you could tell. Perhaps the one uniting factor in most (if not all) Vineyard churches is the unique style of worship – contemporary, vertical, and user-friendly.

FYI, c.hippie, the Metro Vineyard and Mike Bickle is no longer in the Vineyard. The church is now called Metro Christian Fellowship. Their leaving, I think, was friendly. It had something to do with some philosophical difference between him and John Wimber or the AVC. I'm not sure what it was all about but it was all covered objectively in Bill Jackson's book, The Quest for the Radical Middle, A History of the Vineyard.

This is true. Since I was part of the worship team at both Vineyards that I attended, and participated in worship conf and such I personally knew several of the main worship leaders. I can spot hear Vineyard whenever it's played. Like when someone at church buy's a new Vineyard tape and plays it, I say, "that sounds like Vineyard. And they say it is. The music is very distinctive, wonderful, and spontanious. The only other that I like as well is MorningStar music.

 

[Jim B]

(altya) No, South Africa. Thanks anywayNo, South Africa. Thanks anyway

Altya, In that case you might try this link http://www.avc.org.za/.

 

[cherokeehippie]

Hey Jim, I got a question for you. Being in East Texas, do you ever experience opposition from the 'religious' types? Lara

 

[Jim B]

Hey Jim, I got a question for you. Being in East Texas, do you ever experience opposition from the 'religious' types? Lara

You are right, Lara, East Texas is a pretty traditional, conservative-fundamentalist, religious area, but, surprisingly, we are finding no opposition to our new church and contemporary style. In fact, there seems to be a real hunger for “church done different” in our part of the world. Oh, there are a few people who are labeling us a “cult” because they don’t understand or want to resist anything done differently. But for the most part, the community is very accepting and we are growing fast. We are mostly attracting unchurched Christians who had grown dissatisfied with church as usual.