Are we in the 7 year tribulation?

Strong in Him said:

Yes but when prophecy in the OT is being fulfilled, we are always told - "this was to fulfil what was said ...." Or "as it is written ....", etc.
When it comes to end times, many people seem to take quotes from Daniel/Ezekiel and say "this DOES mean this ....". Many people quote Scripture to support their view, those views contradict one another and any attempt to set a date is always wrong. That would not happen if it had been prophesied in the OT.

So the question "on what authority do WE take a verse from the OT and apply it now?" is perfectly valid.

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But what is being fulfilled in the NT by dropping Da 7:35 into it?

Strong in Him said:

Yes but when prophecy in the OT is being fulfilled, we are always told - "this was to fulfil what was said ...." Or "as it is written ....", etc.
When it comes to end times, many people seem to take quotes from Daniel/Ezekiel and say "this DOES mean this ....". Many people quote Scripture to support their view, those views contradict one another and any attempt to set a date is always wrong. That would not happen if it had been prophesied in the OT.

So the question "on what authority do WE take a verse from the OT and apply it now?" is perfectly valid.

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It is absolutely absurd to argue that over 1/3rd of scripture is OT and then suggest that its inappropriate to cite it in ration to the great tribulation. Most of Daniel deals with the end times as do many of the prophets both major and minor prophets. Large volumes of Isaiah, Daneil, Micha Amos, Zechariah...

Clare73 said:

But what is being fulfilled in the NT by dropping Da 7:35 into it?

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Nothing, as far as I can see; that was my point. I was agreeing with you.
If Jesus had wanted us to know, he could have easily said "this is to fulfil what the prophet Daniel said .....". He didn't. Neither, I think, did Paul.

BukiRob said:

It is absolutely absurd to argue that over 1/3rd of scripture is OT and then suggest that its inappropriate to cite it in ration to the great tribulation. Most of Daniel deals with the end times as do many of the prophets both major and minor prophets. Large volumes of Isaiah, Daneil, Micha Amos, Zechariah...

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I'm saying that Matthew, John, Jesus, Peter etc always told us when an OT prophecy was being fulfilled - "this is to fulfil what the prophet said" or "today, this prophecy has been fulfilled".

Today, we seem to get people quoting verses from the OT and teaching "this is happening today; this prophecy is being fulfilled by .....".
It seems to happen a lot with regard to end times - and many people are wrong, and/or contradict themselves. Since I've been on the forums, Jesus' return has been predicted a number of times, for specific days - all backed up by Scripture. All have been wrong. People have said that certain events were fulfilling certain Scriptures, which meant X was going to happen - they've been wrong too. Only recently, someone said the "Bible codes" proved that Easter this year was really in May and Christ's return would be at Pentecost, 50 days afterwards. It remains to be seen if he is correct.

So when humans attempt to apply a Bible prophecy to a modern day event, they seem to always get it wrong.
Hence agree with Claire's question, what authority do WE have to take an OT verse and drop it into the NT?

Strong in Him said:

So when humans attempt to apply a Bible prophecy to a modern day event, they seem to always get it wrong.
Hence agree with Claire's question, what authority do WE have to take an OT verse and drop it into the NT?

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IMHO we can look at what happened in the OT to understand what's happening now. For it is written:
Ecc. 1:9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

However, I find that a lot of people do not want to consider the past. But Lord Jesus says in the NT
Matt.24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

IMHO this speaks of His imminent return. Right now we don't know. But when He comes, everyone will know.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

IMHO we can look at what happened in the OT to understand what's happening now.

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Reading the OT to see how God worked in the past, learn lessons and so on is one thing.
Looking at a prophecy in Daniel and deciding that it applied today, is something else.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

IMHO this speaks of His imminent return. Right now we don't know. But when He comes, everyone will know.

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That is the main, and most important, point - we don't know.

But that doesn't stop people acting like they DO know. Years ago on these forums, there was a guy who was "98% certain" that Tony Blair was the antichrist and that various things would happen, because they were prophesied in Scripture. When I said that we'd have to wait and see he got quite irate and said that Scripture could not lie. When Tony Blair was shown not to be the antichrist and the sequence of events didn't happen he disappeared from the forum. He later wrote on his website that Sarkozy was the antichrist, and later took his website down.
Before the London 2012 Olympics there were clips on YouTube, and discussions on these forums, about the "false flag event" and "Illuminati bloodbath" that would happen at the opening ceremony - all prophesied in Scripture. Nothing happened.
We've had Harold Camping, and others, saying that the Lord would return on a certain day - because it's been prophesied in Scripture.
People claim that Scripture shows that there will/won't be a rapture - and no doubt other things too.

If verses from Daniel, and elsewhere, prophesied the Lord's return, then I believe Jesus would have told us. If we were supposed to be able to work out, with Bible codes or anything else, the day of his coming, a) we would have been told and given the formula for doing so, b) everybody would agree.
But when I look at end times teaching, especially on these forums, all I see is contradiction and confusion. Plus, it seems, people want to prove Jesus wrong and show that we can know something which not even he knew - as long as Daniel is interpreted the "right" way.

Scripture does not contradict itself. Nor does God try to tie us in knots, nor catch us out. Jesus gave us parables which taught that we should be ready; prepared. And when we are ready, by accepting Christ and belonging to him, then we go and teach others to be ready too - preach the Gospel, make disciples etc.

Strong in Him said:

24
Matthew 24:15
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
Reading the OT to see how God worked in the past, learn lessons and so on is one thing.
Looking at a prophecy in Daniel and deciding that it applied today, is something else.

Strong in Him said:

If verses from Daniel, and elsewhere, prophesied the Lord's return, then I believe Jesus would have told us.

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Well, He has not changed. The book of Daniel, imho, is pivotal to understanding, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and, Revelation.
Lord Jesus did tell us to look to Daniel.
Matthew 24:15
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

Matt Bruns said:

How will we know when the great tribulation will start?

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For starters, Babylon (America) will have been utterly destroyed at the time of the rapture and the world will be in extreme chaos. Then as the scriptures state, the AC will make or confirm a treaty and as Daniel states, through peace he will destroy many. For those of us in America, the vast majority won't be around to see the Trib, being either killed or raptured by that point.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Well, He has not changed. The book of Daniel, imho, is pivotal to understanding, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and, Revelation.
Lord Jesus did tell us to look to Daniel.
Matthew 24:15
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

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Did he tell US, or did he tell his 12 disciples?
Was he referring to his second coming - when they didn't even understand that he was going away - or the destruction of the temple, Matthew 24:1-2?

Strong in Him said:

Did he tell US, or did he tell his 12 disciples?
Was he referring to his second coming - when they didn't even understand that he was going away - or the destruction of the temple, Matthew 24:1-2?

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What??? Yes He told the twelve, but,the scripture is meant for all of His disciples. Those with the indwelling Holy Spirit know this.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

What??? Yes He told the twelve, but,the scripture is meant for all of His disciples. Those with the indwelling Holy Spirit know this.

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Yes, but look at the context.
They were leaving the temple and the disciples were admiring the beautiful stones, Matthew 24:1.
Jesus said the stones would all be thrown down; not one left upon another, Matthew 24:2.
If someone talks about the stones of a building being thrown down and scattered, I don't see what else that can mean except that the building will be destroyed. The temple was vital to a Jew. It was God's house, they went there to offer sacrifices, take their tithe, keep the feasts and festivals - all religious life centred around the temple. They had already had their temple destroyed once, when they were in exile in Babylon - and it had been a tragedy for them.
If this temple was destroyed, it could well seem like the end of the age for them. They may have thought that the Lord's day - when Israel was rewarded and vindicated - was near.

So how do WE understand that? Do we say, "yes, the Lord is prophesying the destruction of the temple" - which happened in 70 AD? Or, "the end of the age has to refer to the end of human history; we are alive now and when we read "end of the age", it means "end of OUR age"?
What would people in the 1700s have understood by "end of the age"? What about the 2nd world war? Christians in the Ukraine? Russia?
It's important to know what those words would have meant to the disciples who heard them and to Matthew's readers when they read them several years later. It's important to know what they mean for us, and to ask the Spirit how they apply to us - if at all.

I know it says that they disciples asked about signs of his coming, but what DID they mean? They didn't even know he was going away. They were scared and heartbroken at the crucifixion, were not expecting the resurrection and afterwards, had Jesus on earth for 40 more days before the ascension.

Your parting comment about "those with the indwelling Holy Spirit" was unnecessary.

Strong in Him said:

Your parting comment about "those with the indwelling Holy Spirit" was unnecessary.

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Why?

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Why?

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You could have just left it as "Scripture is meant for all his disciples".
The implication was that if someone doesn't know, or understand, this, they don't have the Holy Spirit.

Strong in Him said:

The implication was that if someone doesn't know, or understand, this, they don't have the Holy Spirit.

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That is the way YOU took it. All scripture is for all of Lord Jesus's disciples. There is one Holy Spirit. He leads and guides all of His disciples. That is my point.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

That is the way YOU took it.

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That's the way I read it, yes; it wasn't clear.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

All scripture is for all of Lord Jesus's disciples.

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ALL Scripture?
The OT food + hygiene laws? Paul's personal greetings?
If so, what do you do with verses which teach that blasphemers and Sabbath breakers be stoned to death? Or that women are unclean at certain times of the month, and doubly so if they give birth to a daughter? Or that people with skin diseases are unclean?
What about the verses where Paul tells us how to treat our slaves - not paid employees, slaves? Or when he tells Timothy that women under 60 who have been widowed are idle gossipers and deserve no help from the church? Or where he asked people to bring his cloak and scrolls when they came to see him? Or told Timothy to stop drinking water but to drink a little wine for his stomach?
How do we, as the Lord's disciples, put those verses of Scripture into practice?

Handmaid for Jesus said:

There is one Holy Spirit. He leads and guides all of His disciples.

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Yes, he does; absolutely.
But we still need to read Scripture in context. otherwise we might make it say what it's authors never intended.
"Then Judas went and hanged himself", Matthew 27:5
"Go and do likewise", Luke 10:37
"What you have to do, do quickly", John 13:27.
Is the NT commending suicide?

Strong in Him said:

Is the NT commending suicide?

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Handmaid for Jesus said:

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Yes, it's ridiculous - but that's what happens when you take those Scriptures out of context.

Getting back to Matthew 24, the disciples, and Jesus, were clearly talking about the temple.
Every Christian since Matthew has read the words, "what will be the sign of the end of the age?" Has that Scripture been FOR them? What did it mean; why wasn't it fulfilled for them?

ADVISOR HAT ON


Thread moved from Current News & Events as this is a more appropriate forum.

ADVISOR HAT OFF

Matt Bruns said:

How will we know when the great tribulation will start?

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No, we are not in the great tribulation yet, nor the 7 years. Neither will happen until after the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39.

The great tribulation itself is not 7 years long. But it will be within 7 years.

It will begin when the abomination of desolation (a statue image of the beast king) is placed on the temple mount (the holy place that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:15).

Jesus also referred to what Daniel the prophet was told. In Daniel 12:11-12 there are two periods of time associated with the abomination of desolation. One is 1290 days, the other to the 1335th day.

The 1335th day is the day Jesus returns. So the great tribulation will begin 1335 days before then. Additional information below...

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The 7 years begin when the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant in Daniel 9:27 for the 7 year cycle required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The reason he is going to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years cycle - is because following the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39, the Jews with think he is their long awaited messiah. And acting out that role, the prince who shall come, will oversee the reading of the law of Moses from the temple mount. That event is what actually begins the 7 years.

Also, because the Jews will think he is their messiah - he will be anointed the King of Israel (coming in his own name). That is when the person officially becomes the Antichrist.

About 3 years into the 7 years, he will betray the Jews, by going into the temple and claim to have achieved God-hood (the 2Thessalonains2:3-4 act). End of his time as the Antichrist, phony King of Israel messiah.

God has him killed for the act, and then in disdain for him, does not let his soul remain in hell, and returns it to his lifeless body - when the person then becomes the beast.

The false prophet in Revelation 13 will have a statue image made of the beast person and places it on the temple mount. The 1335 days of great tribulation begin then.

Matt Bruns said:

How will we know when the great tribulation will start?

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When the Man Of Sin is revealed in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God Messiah to the Jews, and he's on every news channel, and has a guy (The False Prophet) before him performing false miracles calling fire down from heaven