Are independent fundamental baptist churches a cult?

[GeorgeJ]

Here's an IFB preacher who settin' himself up to be a cult leader:

"PASTOR SEEKING CHURCH:
I am looking for a Separated Baptist Church that understands the
Biblical doctrine of a pastor led Church. I am not interested in a
deacon run Church. The Scriptures teach that a deacon is to be an aid
to the pastor in handling the regular, physical, and common duties
around the Church. In Acts 6 they were to tend to the widows in the
daily ministration of their needs. They are not the pastor nor the
Church guardians. They are there to allow the pastor to give himself to
study, prayer, and the ministry of the word of God. This is a Biblical
concept of a Baptist Church."
Independent Baptist Classifieds - Misc. For Sale

IOW, "I am the head of the church, and what I say goes."

 

[Paidiske]

Is it common for Baptist pastors to advertise for churches in that way? It strikes me as distinctly odd...

 

[Albion]

He is right, though, in describing the role of a deacon, George. That's clear from both history and scripture. I presume that he's saying he's available if some congregation calls him to be its pastor and that a deacon-run church isn't following the early church model, not necessarily that he thinks himself the absolute ruler of the congregation. That would be "unbaptistic."

To publish such a resume or whatever we'd call that does seem odd, but maybe among the INDEPENDENT Baptist churches it's not unheard of.

 

[GeorgeJ]

Is it common for Baptist pastors to advertise for churches in that way? It strikes me as distinctly odd...

Yes, it's common for Independent Fundamental Baptist pastors to do that.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not so sure he is right, Albion; he sees the role of the deacon, but not the deacon's place in a wider system of ministry and oversight. He wants menials but no collegiality.

 

[GeorgeJ]

He is right, though, in describing the role of a deacon, George. That's clear from both history and scripture. I presume that he's saying he's available if some congregation calls him to be its pastor and that a deacon-run church isn't following the early church model, not necessarily that he thinks himself the absolute ruler of the congregation. That would be "unbaptistic."

If you were talking about anything other than an IFB church, I would agree.

Let me ask...do you believe in an "elder-run" church?

 

[Albion]

Oh sure. He of course is not relating the diaconate to the presbyters and bishops of scripture or anything more detailed that what he wrote, but I kinda see where he's coming from. If there is some congregation run by a deacon, he's doing more--even as a Baptist--than the deacons of history.

 

[GeorgeJ]

Oh sure. He of course is not relating the diaconate to the presbyters and bishops of scripture or anything more detailed that what he wrote, but I kinda see where he's coming from. If there is some congregation run by a deacon, he's doing more--even as a Baptist--than the deacons of history.

IFBs (for the most part) don't believe in elder-run churches (or elders at all). The pastor is the head of the church, and in many cases refers to himself as the "under-shepherd".

 

[Paidiske]

My understanding is that in many Baptist churches, a group of deacons function to provide administrative oversight of the affairs of the congregation (including such matters as hiring of the pastor)? I think it's that, that he's objecting to; the idea of being accountable to the congregation through a formal structure. And that objection to accountability is something I tend to see as dangerous...

 

[Albion]

If you were talking about anything other than an IFB church, I would agree.

Let me ask...do you believe in an "elder-run" church?

Personally, I believe in the episcopal system. But if this pastor is complaining that the board or council of the congregation is letting one of its members, a deacon in the reformed sense of the word, run the day to day affairs of the church, celebrate the Lord's Supper, etc., I think he has a point.

 

[GeorgeJ]

My understanding is that in many Baptist churches, a group of deacons function to provide administrative oversight of the affairs of the congregation (including such matters as hiring of the pastor)? I think it's that, that he's objecting to; the idea of being accountable to the congregation through a formal structure. And that objection to accountability is something I tend to see as dangerous...

That's exactly what he means. Many IFB pastors don't believe they are accountable to anyone in their church. He is the "man of God", and not to be questioned.

 

[HereIStand]

It looks like some of you are familiar with Hyles-Anderson (HAC) college. I attended a summer secession there, and was raised in the church and school affiliated with the college. Sadly, the church became engulfed in scandals from the late 1980s onward.

Although before my time, and though the church was Independent Baptist, it was part of the Evangelism Explosion movement that was a movement throughout other denominations in the 1960s and 1970s. Gradually though, the church and HAC became more about numbers in evangelism than evangelism. This along with the various scandals led to the ministry's decline and isolation, which had adverse consequences throughout fundamentalism.

 

[Albion]

That's exactly what he means. Many IFB pastors don't believe they are accountable to anyone in their church. He is the "man of God", and not to be questioned.

Then you've educated us on this point, George.

 

[381465]

Here's an IFB preacher who settin' himself up to be a cult leader:

"PASTOR SEEKING CHURCH:
I am looking for a Separated Baptist Church that understands the
Biblical doctrine of a pastor led Church. I am not interested in a
deacon run Church. The Scriptures teach that a deacon is to be an aid
to the pastor in handling the regular, physical, and common duties
around the Church. In Acts 6 they were to tend to the widows in the
daily ministration of their needs. They are not the pastor nor the
Church guardians. They are there to allow the pastor to give himself to
study, prayer, and the ministry of the word of God. This is a Biblical
concept of a Baptist Church."
Independent Baptist Classifieds - Misc. For Sale

IOW, "I am the head of the church, and what I say goes."

Yikes!

 

[GeorgeJ]

That's exactly what he means.

It looks like some of you are familiar with Hyles-Anderson (HAC) college. I attended a summer secession there, and was raised in the church and school affiliated with the college. Sadly, the church became engulfed in scandals from the late 1980s onward.

Although before my time, and though the church was Independent Baptist, it was part of the Evangelism Explosion movement that was a movement throughout other denominations in the 1960s and 1970s. Gradually though, the church and HAC became more about numbers in evangelism than evangelism. This along with the various scandals led to the ministry's decline and isolation, which had adverse consequences throughout fundamentalism.

Yep. Unfortunately, it seems that many IFB churches are more about the numbers...how many members, how many "souls were saved" during their weekly soul-winning marathons, etc. A bunch of sexual predators come from HAC, including the founder's son (David Hyles), Jack Schaap (disgraced pastor of First Baptist Church of Hammond that funds HAC - now in prison), and others.

Megachurch Connected To More Abusive Pastors Than Just Jack Schaap, Claims Report

 

[FenderTL5]

I "Our church is a friendly fundamental Bible-believing Independent Baptist Church. We would like to invite you to join us."

I have no idea about denominations. So looked up what independent fundamental baptist churches are. I got that it's a cult pop up..pages on their mind control and abuse...

Based on the website, the church looks okay. One thing I would be hesitant about is their King James Version (KJV) stance...

Independent, Fundamental, Missionary-minded, Baptist Church is the tradition I grew up in. My dad was a deacon. I saw how the sausage was made in the churches we attended when I was young.

There are definitely some quirks that may be unique to each congregation (that whole independent streak). The KJV only thing is quite common. I learned a lot of foundational lessons there that I'm grateful for (good and bad), that eventually led me to where I am today (Orthodox).

 

[GeorgeJ]

I saw how the sausage was made in the churches we attended when I was young.

Er....maybe I'm behind the times....what does this mean?

 

[com7fy8]

this is the website Rotorua Bible Baptist Church

I was going to phone the church, but it is in New Zealand and I'm in the United States.

I find that each Baptist church can be different; so it is wise to get to know people, and let each one and each group speak for themselves. But in order to do this reliably, you need to pray and trust our Heavenly Father to guide you; God knows who people really are, and He knows where He wants you. I would not center things around getting baptized, but do things with people you trust and share with personally.

But part of baptism can be making a public confession that Jesus is the Lord and how you intend to follow Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

I would think you would get baptized by people who are helping you grow in Jesus. So, I would not only go to strangers and just ask questions and go only by their say-so.

 

[FenderTL5]

Er....maybe I'm behind the times....what does this mean?

..or maybe I'm that far behind, it dates back at least as far as 1869..

The origin of the "how sausage gets made" idiom may be the proverb/quotation, "Laws are like sausages. It's better not to see them being made."
substitute 'church' for law and you get the meaning. Maybe it's a southern thing?

 

[GeorgeJ]

..or maybe I'm that far behind, it dates back at least as far as 1869..

The origin of the "how sausage gets made" idiom may be the proverb/quotation, "Laws are like sausages. It's better not to see them being made."
substitute 'church' for law and you get the meaning. Maybe it's a southern thing?

LOL....I'm from the south, and that's the first time I remember hearing that!