Anglican Use/Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter

[Gnarwhal]

I just started looking more deeply into this yesterday and it seems really beautiful. I like the idea that at least in some ways it's akin to Catholicism as it was in England prior to the English Reformation. The beauty of the Latin Mass but in Elizabethan English. Coming from a family of literature buffs, I can doubly appreciate that.

Has anyone on here ever gone to such a parish?

Is the Church's stance on it similar to the Orthodox Church's stance on the Western Rite? That is, that many in the EO see the Western Rite as merely a stepping stone to facilitate people's accepting Eastern liturgy. Does the Church kind of look at the Anglican liturgy as being a stepping stone to the Novus Ordo or the TLM (as examples)?

 

[Padres1969]

I just started looking more deeply into this yesterday and it seems really beautiful. I like the idea that at least in some ways it's akin to Catholicism as it was in England prior to the English Reformation. The beauty of the Latin Mass but in Elizabethan English. Coming from a family of literature buffs, I can doubly appreciate that.

Has anyone on here ever gone to such a parish?

Is the Church's stance on it similar to the Orthodox Church's stance on the Western Rite? That is, that many in the EO see the Western Rite as merely a stepping stone to facilitate people's accepting Eastern liturgy. Does the Church kind of look at the Anglican liturgy as being a stepping stone to the Novus Ordo or the TLM (as examples)?

My understanding is that the Anglican Use parishes aren't being used as stepping stones to Roman Rite OF or EF parishes. Rather that they're simply their own distinct flavor of the Roman Rite with the Divine Worship Missal.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Not much discussion over this topic, rather than making a new thread about the same thing I thought I'd just revive my old one. I'm interested in learning more about the Ordinariate. I've read just about everything there is to read online (which isn't much). First, I think it's amazing that there are so many Episcopal/Anglican parishes coming into the Catholic Church. Second, I love their liturgy - that it's basically the Latin Mass in form, but substituting Elizabethan English, I'm kind of an anglophile and a literature nerd, so this strikes me on multiple levels. Not to mention the English choral tradition, I'm enamored with how amazing that is.

Has anyone here attended an Ordinariate/Anglican Use parish? If so, thoughts?

Since one of my hopes after graduating is to land a job in DC, I'm definitely excited at the prospect of attending St Luke's at Immaculate Conception.

I've heard some chatter about Continuing Anglicans showing a lot of interest in joining the Ordinariate. Obviously this is a lengthy process but it's compelling to see these communities feel so convicted to join the Church that they're doing so en masse.

 

[WarriorAngel]

My understanding is that the Anglican Use parishes aren't being used as stepping stones to Roman Rite OF or EF parishes. Rather that they're simply their own distinct flavor of the Roman Rite with the Divine Worship Missal.

And someday - perhaps - i would like to attend.
IF any were near me - that i knew of.

 

[Paidiske]

What I've been told by people close to the process of setting the Ordinariate up is that it is intended as a stepping stone, although it's not being - for want of a better word - marketed that way. Quote from a Catholic bishop: "In a generation there will be no Ordinariate."

 

[Padres1969]

What I've been told by people close to the process of setting the Ordinariate up is that it is intended as a stepping stone, although it's not being - for want of a better word - marketed that way. Quote from a Catholic bishop: "In a generation there will be no Ordinariate."

Wonder if everyone choosing to join from the Anglican Continuing Movements is aware of this particular fact. It's not one I've heard voiced before, the idea that it's just a stepping stone and that the RCC will eventually fold the Ordinariate into the mainline Catholic Church.

Makes me wonder what the logic of the long term goal of eliminating the Ordinariate would be too. I mean the RCC has allowed the Eastern Churches to retain their identities, practices, etc... for centuries in many cases. Why not extend the same idea to the Ordinariate?

 

[Gnarwhal]

Some might perceive it as a stepping stone, but I have a feeling it won't be. There's such a positive response to offering the Roman Catholic Mass in the Anglican Use, that it's hard to imagine it disappearing. If the Western-Rite Orthodox parishes can persist, surely Anglican Use Catholic parishes will as well.

Technically the Anglican Use has been permitted since the early 80's by Pope St John Paul II, and it's been well-received enough to the point that Benedict XVI saw merit in establishing the Ordinariate.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but it seems to hearken back to an age before the Church of England broke from Rome.

 

[Michie]

Are only Anglicans allowed? What I mean, is Cradle Catholic or any Catholic allowed to participate. Could a RCC go to an Ordinariate and still be considered a Catholic in good standing? I really do not understand this as I probably should.

 

[Albion]

I'll tell you what I know about it, FWIW.

Not much discussion over this topic, rather than making a new thread about the same thing I thought I'd just revive my old one. I'm interested in learning more about the Ordinariate. I've read just about everything there is to read online (which isn't much). First, I think it's amazing that there are so many Episcopal/Anglican parishes coming into the Catholic Church.

Well, the first thing is .... there aren't "so many." The idea stirred a lot of interest when Pope Benedict advanced it, but by the time the details became known, most of those parishes that were interested backed out. There appears to have been a better response in England than in North America, but it the whole thing would be considered a minor blip on the religious radar screen if studied by anyone who doesn't have a personal interest.

Second, some of the "Anglican Use" parishes now part of the Ordinariate have complained, rather pointedly, that they've been treated badly and almost ignored. I am sure that others do not feel this way, however.

I love their liturgy - that it's basically the Latin Mass in form, but substituting Elizabethan English, I'm kind of an anglophile and a literature nerd, so this strikes me on multiple levels. Not to mention the English choral tradition, I'm enamored with how amazing that is.

IMHO, this would be the main reason for wanting to locate one of these parishes, but you can see that your POV isn't enough to satisfy most of the Anglicans/Episcopalians who were certain--at first--that this was the answer to their prayers.

I've heard some chatter about Continuing Anglicans showing a lot of interest in joining the Ordinariate.

That was mainly centered in the Anglican Church in America, but it made a decision to remain a Continuing Anglican body. One diocese, I believe, did go to Rome and a handful of small Canadian parishes and missions, but that's about all.

this is a lengthy process but it's compelling to see these communities feel so convicted to join the Church that they're doing so en masse.

No, that's not happening.

 

[Paidiske]

Wonder if everyone choosing to join from the Anglican Continuing Movements is aware of this particular fact. It's not one I've heard voiced before, the idea that it's just a stepping stone and that the RCC will eventually fold the Ordinariate into the mainline Catholic Church.

Makes me wonder what the logic of the long term goal of eliminating the Ordinariate would be too. I mean the RCC has allowed the Eastern Churches to retain their identities, practices, etc... for centuries in many cases. Why not extend the same idea to the Ordinariate?

I don't think it's so much a matter of eliminating the Ordinariate, as it is not providing for its sustainability.

What I mean is, for example, when it was first announced, there was talk that the Ordinariate would have its own seminaries, that Ordinariate clergy would be allowed to marry or be married, that in effect it would be much like the Eastern churches. (Hence the interest Albion mentioned).

But as far as I'm aware, that's not how it's shaken out. There are no Ordinariate seminaries (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best of my knowledge that's the case), so unless there is a steady stream of ex-Anglican clergy, there will not be renewal of the ministry. There is not general permission for married clergy, so the attraction for many of the guys - including existing Catholics - who might have gone that way is now gone.

My understanding - informed, as I said, by a colleague who was very much up close to the process - is that this is a half way house for those who would not have gone all the way to Rome but were willing to go this far. (To be honest, it's a problematic thing, and I suspect those who have gone will not be as happy with it as they thought they would be, but that's possibly another thread). In many ways that momentum was driven by conflict in the Anglican church, and as we get past this current moment, I don't expect the interest to last.

It might have been different if the numbers had been much larger, but as it is, as the current converts die, I don't expect the Ordinariate to continue.

 

[Gnarwhal]

And someday - perhaps - i would like to attend.
IF any were near me - that i knew of.

I'm not sure where you live, but you can search their website for all of their parishes and see if one is anywhere close to you:

http://www.ordinariate.net/parishfinder

Are only Anglicans allowed? What I mean, is Cradle Catholic or any Catholic allowed to participate. Could a RCC go to an Ordinariate and still be considered a Catholic in good standing? I really do not understand this as I probably should.

Yes. It is entirely a part of the Catholic Church, fully in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Any Catholic can attend the parish, from what I've read so far though they restrict membership to those who migrated from the Anglican church, new converts, and those who marry someone already in the Ordinariate. That may be subject to change in the future, but who knows for sure. Someone suggested that they're limiting it now because of the possibility that a lot of cradle Catholics might like the prospect of the Anglican Use and seek out those parishes on a larger scale if they could become members of them. Still though, any Catholic can attend, receive the Eucharist, etc.

I'll tell you what I know about it, FWIW.


Well, the first thing is .... there aren't "so many." The idea stirred a lot of interest when Pope Benedict advanced it, but by the time the details became known, most of those parishes that were interested backed out. There appears to have been a better response in England than in North America, but it the whole thing would be considered a minor blip on the religious radar screen if studied by anyone who doesn't have a personal interest.

That may be so at this point. @Rhamiel has mentioned that a friend of his, who is a Continuing Anglican rector, has told him that there are a number of parishes who are in the process of deciding right now, and that they already passed the first vote to join the Ordinariate. So within the next year or so they could be joining.

Second, some of the "Anglican Use" parishes now part of the Ordinariate have complained, rather pointedly, that they've been treated badly and almost ignored. I am sure that others do not feel this way, however.

I would bet that's because the whole Ordinariate is under the jurisdiction of one Bishop border-to-border/coast-to-coast, so maybe he's spread kind of thin if nothing else than geographically speaking.

 

[Rhamiel]

Makes me wonder what the logic of the long term goal of eliminating the Ordinariate would be too. I mean the RCC has allowed the Eastern Churches to retain their identities, practices, etc... for centuries in many cases. Why not extend the same idea to the Ordinariate?

well between the time of the Reformation and Vatican II, a lot of local or particular liturgies have been done away with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_liturgical_rites#Defunct_Catholic_Western_liturgical_rites

the idea has been to streamline the Latin Rite

and historically, England has been under the Latin Rite and not its own proper Church such as the See of Alexandria or Constantinople

so there is an argument for letting the Anglican Use fade away after a generation or so

but the argument could also be made that because of the geography (isolated from the rest of Europe)
and the history, both the very early history where the Church of England had a higher degree of autonomy as well as the centuries in Schism, that this faith community has its own distinct personality that should be honored, respected, and allowed to grow and evolve within the context of the Catholic Church

 

[Paidiske]

I would bet that's because the whole Ordinariate is under the jurisdiction of one Bishop border-to-border/coast-to-coast, so maybe he's spread kind of thin if nothing else than geographically speaking.

I would bet there's more to it as well.

This is, by and large, a group of people who have been used to a lot more, if not direct control, certainly say in their affairs than is customary in Catholicism (participation in synods etc). They've also been used to, if I can put it this way, getting away with a level of creative disobedience within the Anglican church. (Generalising, I know, but bear with me here). Now they're in a structure where they're not going to get that, and it's going to come as a bit of a culture shock.

I think many of the people going into the Ordinariate thought that they would basically get to be Anglicans in communion with Rome. But Anglican polity is really different to Catholic polity, and I'm not sure that they all thought all of the implications through. I can well understand that the adjustment would involve some grumbling along the way...

 

[Anhelyna]

I'm not sure where I read this - but I'm certain I did somewhere, that brand new folk converting from something other than the Anglican/Episcopal 'variants' could not actually be received into Catholicism via the Ordinariates

 

[Albion]

That may be so at this point. @Rhamiel has mentioned that a friend of his, who is a Continuing Anglican rector, has told him that there are a number of parishes who are in the process of deciding right now, and that they already passed the first vote to join the Ordinariate. So within the next year or so they could be joining.

Anything can happen, of course. And now that the Ordinariate has been established, new outrages within TEC could well send other people in this direction who wouldn't have considered it earlier. However, I have observed--from the very first mention of such a thing as an Ordinariate through to today--Catholics and Roman Catholic publications talking about swarms of former Anglicans supposedly going to the Ordinariate or about to do so as well as talk about the English Reformation itself about to be resolved! None of that is true or likely to become true.

The Ordinariate exists. It's essentially Roman Catholicism with a gesture towards Anglican terminology or wording and likely to remain so. It's not a Uniate jurisdiction or anything close to that. That's not a criticism but just a matter of fact.

 

[Rhamiel]

Catholics and Roman Catholic publications talking about swarms of former Anglicans supposedly going to the Ordinariate or about to do so as well as talk about the English Reformation itself about to be resolved! None of that is true or likely to become true.

you are right, some Catholics have been overly enthusiastic and this has led to some exaggeration on our part