And I will raise him up at the last day?

[Christophercbm]

Ok, I have been studying the pre-tribulation rapture lately and I have come across some good reasons to believe it (maybe). However, what does Jesus mean by the "last day" in the following verse's?

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

I know that there will be a resurrection at the rapture when the "dead in Christ" are raised, but if this occurs at the "last day", wouldn't that mean that the rapture occurs after the tribulation?

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

Yes, the rapture occurs after the resurrection on the last day.

The last day is exactly that...the final day of this age.

Here are some more scriptures:

John 11:24
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

 

[1Timothy316]

Hey, Christophercmb, first I'd like to say you bring up a good point, but I also don't think the Bible contradicts itself, so, below are some verses that seem to point to an earlier rapture:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

As shown in Matthew 24, it seems the gathering happens at the sixth seal:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Compared to Rev 6 -

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Also, at the end of Rev 6, it says the day of wrath has come:

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So, it could be thought that the "immediately after the tribulation of those days" in Matthew 24 is speaking of the tribulations that history has been experiencing since Jesus Christ was crucified. Not the "Great" tribulations.

Maybe the name "pre trib" is better called "pre great trib" ?

 

[Partaker of Christ]

[FONT=&quot]The last day, is the day immediately before the day of the Lord [/FONT]

 

[Christophercbm]

Hey, Christophercmb, first I'd like to say you bring up a good point, but I also don't think the Bible contradicts itself, so, below are some verses that seem to point to an earlier rapture:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

As shown in Matthew 24, it seems the gathering happens at the sixth seal:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Compared to Rev 6 -

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Also, at the end of Rev 6, it says the day of wrath has come:

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So, it could be thought that the "immediately after the tribulation of those days" in Matthew 24 is speaking of the tribulations that history has been experiencing since Jesus Christ was crucified. Not the "Great" tribulations.

Maybe the name "pre trib" is better called "pre great trib" ?

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I must point out that just because we are kept from something, doesnt necessarily mean we are taken from the earth

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

.................................................

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I'm not fully convinced that the above verses are talking about anything more than eternal wrath.

I am however, convinced that there will be a future Millennial Kingdom that will consist of flesh beings (Isaiah 65:20) and if the rapture occurs after the tribulation, then that will not leave any flesh beings to enter into the millennium because all believers will be transformed into spiritual bodies, and all the wicked will be destroyed.

Plus, the following verse's in John 14 strongly suggest that Jesus is coming back to take us to Heaven, and we know in the second coming he is coming to earth to set up his kingdom.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[Christophercbm]

[FONT=&quot]The last day, is the day immediately before the day of the Lord [/FONT]

Is there some kind of Judgment on that day? I dont see that mentioned anywhere in the rapture passages

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Laurabenson]

The last day is the 1000 years when Christ reigns, the final day in a series of seven days. This is when all the judgments occur. The church is the first to be judged. (1 Peter 4:17) We are judged by the blood of the Lamb, but no one else gets that honor. The beast and the false prophets are judged next. Then the people who are beheaded by the beast are judged during the first resurrection of the 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years, the devil is judged. Also, at the end of the 1000 years, everyone else is resurrected and judged. Judgement is final and for eternity.

Meanwhile, there is a separation that occurs, sheep from goats. The goats are thrown into hell to await final judgment at the resurrection and judgment at the end of the 1000 years. The gog armies that invade Israel are goats. Those who take the mark of the beast are goats. They are separated and will be thrown into the lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years.

 

[1Timothy316]

[FONT=&quot]The last day, is the day immediately before the day of the Lord [/FONT]

Hello, Partaker of Christ, do you think the day of the Lord occurs at the end of Rev. 6?

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[1Timothy316]

The last day is the 1000 years when Christ reigns, the final day in a series of seven days. This is when all the judgments occur. The church is the first to be judged. (1 Peter 4:17) We are judged by the blood of the Lamb, but no one else gets that honor. The beast and the false prophets are judged next. Then the people who are beheaded by the beast are judged during the first resurrection of the 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years, the devil is judged. Also, at the end of the 1000 years, everyone else is resurrected and judged. Judgement is final and for eternity.

Meanwhile, there is a separation that occurs, sheep from goats. The goats are thrown into hell to await final judgment at the resurrection and judgment at the end of the 1000 years. The gog armies that invade Israel are goats. Those who take the mark of the beast are goats. They are separated and will be thrown into the lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years.

Hi, laurabenson, how do you think the rapture fits into the Revelation timeline?

 

[Laurabenson]

Hi, laurabenson, how do you think the rapture fits into the Revelation timeline?

Jesus said in Matthew 24 that he will send out his angels to gather the elect (the elect for whom the great tribulation is cut short) at the sound of a great trumpet when the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky.

In Revelation 6, at the time of the 6th seal, the people of the earth are hiding from the face of God and the Son of Man, so that's when Jesus has just appeared. It makes sense when you look at Revelation 7 and see the multitude who have come out of the great tribulation are wearing white robes that are given in the 5th seal. Both the end of the great tribulation and the white robes are immediately before the 6th seal.
The great tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect and the elect are gathered by angels immediately after the great tribulation is cut short, at the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, when Jesus appears in the air. After the church is removed, the tribes who mourn will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and glory later. We've all been enduring the tribulation for two millennia. It's the wrath that we will be saved from.



Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shakenMat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6:12 ¶ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[zeke37]

Ok, I have been studying the pre-tribulation rapture lately and I have come across some good reasons to believe it (maybe). However, what does Jesus mean by the "last day" in the following verse's?

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

I know that there will be a resurrection at the rapture when the "dead in Christ" are raised, but if this occurs at the "last day", wouldn't that mean that the rapture occurs after the tribulation?

Yes that is what it means
Christ comes at the last day, and still has the wrath of God with Him,
ergo, the wrath of God is NOT the tribulation.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I must point out that just because we are kept from something, doesnt necessarily mean we are taken from the earth

completely correct.
don't let a pre tribber or "pre wrather" tell you differently

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

.................................................

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I'm not fully convinced that the above verses are talking about anything more than eternal wrath.

God has two kinds of wrath.
He has a wrath that is poured out on folks, at His Coming
that is a refining wrath for some....but not for all.

but at the end of the last day,
His final wrath is poured out at the final Judgement

I am however, convinced that there will be a future Millennial Kingdom that will consist of flesh beings (Isaiah 65:20)

i'm not...because of 1Cor15's mystery change....
flesh and blood cannot inherrit the Kingdom of God.
and He IS setting up His Kingdom

Christ, coming here in His Glory, is too much for flesh and blood to handle
so, as 1Cor15 says, we shall all be changed, even animals as described in Isa.
meat eaters lying down with plant eaters,
children playing with the most dangerous animals etc.

that particular chapter is badly translated...
it's full of hebraisms, and other figures of speech

and if the rapture occurs after the tribulation, then that will not leave any flesh beings to enter into the millennium because all believers will be transformed into spiritual bodies, and all the wicked will be destroyed.

imo of scripture, the Millennium is a time of refinement.
All of Ez 40-48 is about the Millennium
Ez44 describes the scene from two points of view
from the bad teachers point of view, and from the good teachers point of view

huge difference, but those deceived, even the teachers, are not going to be destroyed...
limited, but not destroyed

Plus, the following verse's in John 14 strongly suggest that Jesus is coming back to take us to Heaven, and we know in the second coming he is coming to earth to set up his kingdom.

John14 has nothing to do with His 2nd Coming per say.
All we need to do is continue to read the chapter and learn that
because he goes to His Father, we can do amazing things.

that is true for us today, and them way back then.
Christ already went to the Father, and sits there today making intercession for us.
ONLY through Him, are we a part of God's house
ONLY through Him, do we find "rest" in God

but anyway, just continue to read the chapter,
and then realize that the statement is not about the end times,
because it is true for them back then, and us today.

it's one of the many pre trib supposed proofs, that has no merit.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

He did not mean a literal place, or mansion,
He meant that He would make it possible for us to get into God's house.
we can be under His roof so to speak, with Him as head of the household.

remember what things had progressed to in Christ's day,
let alone in our Babylonian churchology

Is there some kind of Judgment on that day? I dont see that mentioned anywhere in the rapture passages

1Thes4:13 continues until 1Thes5:11, talking about that same last day.
the thought continues past the chapter break.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

what if that judgement begins at His Coming,
and lasts until final judgement at the end of the Millennium.
that's enough time for the seduced/deceived Christians
to be refined, as precious metal is refined

 

[1Timothy316]

Hey zeke37, where do you find the Matt 24/Rev 6 parallel fitting?

 

[zeke37]

Hello, Partaker of Christ, do you think the day of the Lord occurs at the end of Rev. 6?

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev repeats itself....shows things from one angle or another....
the wrath of God is a very good way to build a "timeline" in Rev.

remember that the rapture has not happened yet.
let's look at the wrath of God timeline, and see what we find.

in this expose,
the trib is over, it is the last day, and the rapture is about to happen.

Rev19, a declaration that the bride is ready, is made in heaven.
Christ leaves heaven with the clouds of armies of heaven (righteous dead),
and comes to earth to get the bride and have supper.
note that He has the wrath of God with Him as He is Coming in Rev19,
and Rev19 is regarded as His post trib Coming, even by pre tribbers.

so we'll start there and cover the mentionings of "the wrath of God" in Rev, in the order that is obvious

Rev19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

now we see that same Coming, at that same time
from the "deceived" ones, as they hide from His Coming at the 6th seal.

Rev6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

they know it's THAT DAY.
so, here's the trumpet blast that announces our King...(coming with wrath)

Rev11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

so, the wrath of God is at the time of the dead.
well, that's the Resurrection at the last day that Jesus taught about, right?
that's the same Raising that we see in 1Thes4, and in 1Cor15,
that has to happen before the rapture happens.

so, now in this timeline, is when I think the rapture actually happens...
Rev14 describes the 144,000 ON Mt Zion with Him
imo they represents the righteous alive at His Coming, who get GATHERED to HIM

so, right after they are gathered to Christ at the beginning of chapter 14,
the wrath of God is about to happen.

Rev14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

iow, that's why it's important to remain faithful, and not worship the beast

Hi, laurabenson, how do you think the rapture fits into the Revelation timeline?

so you know, this poster is obv. one of many sock accounts, of a banned person.
you prob know who

 

[zeke37]

Hey zeke37, where do you find the Matt 24/Rev 6 parallel fitting?

hi
at the last day

edit, I thot you meant the signs.
since they are mentioned at the 6th seal, as He is seen descending,
and also in Mat24, as He is seen Coming
they obv speak of the same time.

astronomical events at the last day.

but basically, ya, I think Rev6 is even in the same order as Mat24, point for point.

 

[Laurabenson]

So does that mean that you don't see how Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 fit together?

 

[1Timothy316]

Zeke37, you sure do make long confusing posts... I still don't understand your point

To me, your point should be simple and with scriptural support?

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

It's not a secret code. The last day is exactly that...the last day...it's the final day of this age when Christ returns; then the resurrection and judgement takes place and Christ ushers in the age to come.

 

[1Timothy316]

It's not a secret code. The last day is exactly that...the last day...it's the final day of this age when the resurrection and judgement takes place and Christ ushers in the age to come.

Hi PCC, you seem to be the only one implying any secret code?

What do you think about the Matt 24/Rev 6 parallel that seems to show Jesus stating in Matt 24 that his angels would gather his elect during the events that match Rev 6?

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

Hi PCC, you seem to be the only one implying any secret code?

I'm not implying a secret code. I said that "it wasn't a secret code". Others were implying that last day was some sort of secret code by suggesting that it means something other than the final day.

What do you think about the Matt 24/Rev 6 parallel that seems to show Jesus stating in Matt 24 that his angels would gather his elect during the events that match Rev 6?

So, what's your point? The dead saints are in heaven and the angels gather them from the four winds of heaven for the resurrection of the dead.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ok, I have been studying the pre-tribulation rapture lately and I have come across some good reasons to believe it (maybe). However, what does Jesus mean by the "last day" in the following verse's?

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

I know that there will be a resurrection at the rapture when the "dead in Christ" are raised, but if this occurs at the "last day", wouldn't that mean that the rapture occurs after the tribulation?

Correct, Scripture never says there is a "rapture" before Christ's coming in glory. The resurrection of the dead happens on the last day, with last day meaning last day. There's no secret rapture, or anyone getting zapped up into heaven; when Christ comes, it's in Judgment, to raise the dead, and make all things new. Scripture is consistent about these things.

-CryptoLutheran