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An honest reason behind Christian's sympathy towards Jews

Carl Emerson

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"Forgive them Lord - for they know not what they do..."

The prayer was answered.

The church was born among Jews.

Paul was a murderous Roman.

No Nation on Earth was excluded from His forgiveness.
 
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com7fy8

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There are people who love the Jews because they were brought up to love them. And for others it could be a fad thing to love and sympathize with the Jews.

Jesus wants us to love any and all people because He wants us to . . . not only in order to be religious, or going with what is popular.

So, what has happened more publicly could all have been a show and going along with what is good diplomacy for business and for getting along with whoever might cut off your head or get you cancelled.
 
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Ted-01

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Geesh... the misunderstanding of history in this thread is frightening and alarming! The categorizing "what some Christians did/thought" into "what all Christians did/thought is the same kind of thinking that's at the root of all stereotyping and prejudicial hatred.

The concept of Jews are the Christ-killers may have started in the 2nd century with Justin Martyr but didn't really develop into the outright hatred of Jews until the Crusade era. It just wasn't a widely held concern until the RCC spurred folks into consolidated action.

Also, it's not the Jewish Dysphoria, though there might have been some "profound sense of unease or dissatisfaction", it was the Jewish Diaspora.
 
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Yusuphhai

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In the Book of Acts, Middle Eastern peoples prioritize the acceptance of Yeshua. Judah-Samaria (the disappearing Ephraim) and Edom (Esau) formed the contractual alliance first. God wants more people to hear God, and God also wants to hear more people's suffering, just like Ish-Shema-El(from left to right, man hears God; from right to left, God hears man).

Amos 9:11-12
9:11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
9:12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

Acts 15:15-18
15:15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
15:16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
15:17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
15:18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

What is the relationship between the Gentiles seeking the Lord and rebuilding the collapsed tent of David?

The Book of Acts Here tells the story of the Gentiles seeking the Lord, while Amos Here tells the story of Israel acquiring Edom and the Gentiles. It seems that the same paragraph has two ways of reading: right to left and left to right.
 
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Yusuphhai

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Lutheranism around the world has issued many statements on the relationship between Christianity and Judaism.

Wallmann, Johannes. "The Reception of Luther's Writings on the Jews from the Reformation to the End of the 19th Century", Lutheran Quarterly, n.s. 1 (Spring 1987) 1:72–97. Wallmann writes: "The assertion that Luther's expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment have been of major and persistent influence in the centuries after the Reformation, and that there exists a continuity between Protestant anti-Judaism and modern racially oriented antisemitism, is at present wide-spread in the literature; since the Second World War it has understandably become the prevailing opinion."

In the Driebergen Declaration (1991), the Lutheran Church and the Jewish European Council (LEKKJ)... rejected the traditional Christian doctrine of "contempt for Jews and Judaism," particularly Martin Luther's anti Semitic writings, in which the Church needed to reform its operations. In this context, LEKKJ welcomes the promulgation of "Truth: A Jewish Declaration about Christians and Christianity.". We see in this statement its affirmation of our past work... We know that we must re-examine the themes in Lutheran theology, which have repeatedly brought hostility towards Jews in the past... We are fully aware that the Dabru Emet (Truth) was the first dialogue that Jews invited us to have, and we also see in this statement that it can help us express and live out our faith, Enable us not to denigrate Jews, but to respect their uniqueness, allowing us to more clearly articulate our own identity through the eyes of others.

Road to Jerusalem - Germany?

 
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Carl Emerson

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In the Book of Acts, Middle Eastern peoples prioritize the acceptance of Yeshua. Judah-Samaria (the disappearing Ephraim) and Edom (Esau) formed the contractual alliance first. God wants more people to hear God, and God also wants to hear more people's suffering, just like Ish-Shema-El(from left to right, man hears God; from right to left, God hears man).

Amos 9:11-12
9:11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
9:12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

Acts 15:15-18
15:15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
15:16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
15:17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
15:18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

What is the relationship between the Gentiles seeking the Lord and rebuilding the collapsed tent of David?

The Book of Acts Here tells the story of the Gentiles seeking the Lord, while Amos Here tells the story of Israel acquiring Edom and the Gentiles. It seems that the same paragraph has two ways of reading: right to left and left to right.

The promise was given to Abraham (The Father of all who have faith) from which we derive our salvation as members of the true Israel - includes all believers. There is no longer Jew and Gentile in the New Israel.
 
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Yusuphhai

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The promise was given to Abraham (The Father of all who have faith) from which we derive our salvation as members of the true Israel - includes all believers. There is no longer Jew and Gentile in the New Israel.
British missionary Samuel Pollard emphasized during his preaching of the Hmong(Miao) people in China that he did not want to destroy their culture, but only hoped that the Hmong people would change their bad social customs. He helped the Hmong create a new national script by Symbols on their clothing . Similarly, Jews, Westerners, Middle Easterners, East Asians, Africans and others can still maintain their cultural characteristics in the unity of Christ.
 
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Rose_bud

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British missionary Samuel Pollard emphasized during his preaching of the Hmong(Miao) people in China that he did not want to destroy their culture, but only hoped that the Hmong people would change their bad social customs. He helped the Hmong create a new national script by Symbols on their clothing . Similarly, Jews, Westerners, Middle Easterners, East Asians, Africans and others can still maintain their cultural characteristics in the unity of Christ.
:wave:

I would add that where said culture contradicts the teachings of Jesus. The teaching of Christ always take precedence.
 
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Carl Emerson

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British missionary Samuel Pollard emphasized during his preaching of the Hmong(Miao) people in China that he did not want to destroy their culture, but only hoped that the Hmong people would change their bad social customs. He helped the Hmong create a new national script by Symbols on their clothing . Similarly, Jews, Westerners, Middle Easterners, East Asians, Africans and others can still maintain their cultural characteristics in the unity of Christ.

:wave:

I would add that where said culture contradicts the teachings of Jesus. The teaching of Christ always take precedence.

Yep... aspects of culture are not spiritually neutral.
 
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Yusuphhai

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Jesus fully complied with 613 of the Law(Torah) of Moses. The Jewish people who followed Jesus had an advantage in understanding the Bible. Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Gentiles have no obligation to live according to Jewish customs. On the contrary, Jews do not have the obligation to live according to Gentile customs. The Samaritans seemed to be in a buffer zone, making the conflict between Jewish and Gentiles less intense. In Acts, The tolerance of the Jerusalem Council towards Gentiles customs was not indulgence, Jesus knew it was difficult to have a deeper understanding of Torah in terms of different cultural customs.
 
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stevevw

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Most Christians would say that Bible condemns antisemitism. Yet, starting from second century all the way throughout middle ages all the way till 19-th century and even beginning of 20-th century antisemitism was a mainstream belief among Christians. So the question is why did things change? Yes, we have antisemites now, but nowdays they are a minority, while in the past they were vast majority. The typical Christian answer is that "they were not true Christians". But this doesn't address the question of a timeline. Why would Christians in the middle ages not be true Christians, while Christians in 21-st century be true Christians, when Bible prophesizes the opposite, that there would be falling away of the church at the end times.

I think the real honest reason why Christians have sympathy towards Jews is simply because they feel bad for the Jews after the holocaust. As much as Christians will deny it, this is something that objective look at the timeline, and objective use of secular psychology would tell us. And whether the Bible supports antisemitism or not is a separate question. I am not discussing whether Bible supports antisemitism -- I am only discussing the psychology of people that cause them to choose one interpretation of the Bible over the other. Right or wrong, it was traditional to choose antisemitic interpretations of the Bible. But then the holocaust made them feel bad for the Jews, so they decided to rethink their interpretation of the Bible and choose less antisemitic ones.

This being said, lets ask ourselves a different question. On the one hand, Christians can't bear the idea that 6 million holocaust victims deserved it. Yet, on the other hand, Christians are okay with an idea that people that are in hell deserve it. But you see, the 6 million Jews only suffered for limitted period of time, while hell suffering is eternal (the reason I say they suffered for limitted period of time is because Christians are not comfortable in saying Anne Frank or any other holocaust victim is in hell, even though they don't believe in Jesus; or even if we do say they are in hell, they would have been in hell with or without Hitler; the amount of suffering Hitler ADDED to it is finite). So why is it finite suffering of 6 million Jews is harder to bear than infinite suffering of a lot more people in hell? I think its because Christians haven't actually seen hell, yet they seen the suffering of 6 million Jews. Yes, they say they believe in hell. But its one thing to simply believe, and its another thing altogether to actually see it.

In fact lets ask ourselves a famous question as to how Hitler could go to heaven if he accepted Jesus right before his death and how Anne Frank could go to hell for not believing in Jesus. But, instead of trying to answer this question, lets ask ourselves a different question. Regardless if its true or not, why would it be more appealing to our sensitivities to see Anne Frank in heaven and Hitler in hell? In other words, we are not asking who is actually in heaven or in hell, we are only asking the question about ourselves: namely our own sensitivities. And it is a valid question. Because you see, if Anne Frank were to go to heaven and Hitler were to go to hell, then Hitler would suffer in hell a lot more and a lot longer than Anne Frank suffered in the real life. So, since the honest reason for sympathy towards Anne Frank is that she suffered more (see above), then this reason is no longer true, since now Hitler suffered more. Yet, I still claim that the reason that Anne Frank suffered more is real honest reason. Because, again, people haven't seen hell. So even though they conceptually know that Hitlers suffering in hell are a lot more severe and a lot longer, still deep down on a more intuitive level they feel that Anne Frank's suffering are worse, because its here in the tangible, while hell isn't.

A counter-argument to this is a statement "yes Hitler suffered more but he deserved it while Anne Frank didn't". I don't buy this either. Because one can claim that Jews deserved it too, since they killed Jesus. If you say "Romans killed Jesus", again, let me ask you to be honest with yourself and others. What would have happened if for the past 2 millenia people were to persecute Italians instead of Jews beause Romans killed Jesus, and then Hitler were to kill 6 millions Italians instead of 6 millions Jews for that same reason. Then everyone would feel bad for Italians and would say "Jews killed Jesus" not because they hate Jews but simply because they want to redeem Italians who were victims of all that persecution. But since in actuality it were the Jews that were persecutted and not the Italians, thats why nowdays so many people want to say that Romans killed Jesus out of sympathy towards Jews. But if we were to be more honest then yes Bible teaches Jews killed Jesus or at least strongly suggests it.

Then the other argument is that its unfair to nowdays Jews to be punished for what their ancestors did 2 millenia ago. Well, by the same token, it is also unfair to punish humankind as a whole for what Adam and Eve did in even more distant past. Yet, most Christians feel like punishing Jews for their ancestors is objectionable while the belief in original sin isn't. Again, I think it is because they wittnessed the holocaust so they feel a lot of sympathy towards the Jews. But wait a second: wouldn't the majority of mankind suffer for original sin a lot more severely and a lot longer than Jews suffered for the holocaust? Again: the holocaust happened in the tangible while the future hell for original sin isn't.

And also, as far as the idea that "unlike Anne Frank, it was Hitler's own choice", if you look at it from Calvinist perspective, Hitler was predestined to make the choices he did. I am not saying I am a Calvinist. But I can still ask a question: why is it, the people that are Calvinist, still act as if Hitler is responsible for what he did, yet Jews aren't responsible for how they were born, if neither of them had a choice (from Calvinist perspective)? Again, the answer lies in their sympathies towards Jews after the holocaust. And again I can ask why don't they have even more sympathies towards Hitler, given that he had no choice either (from their perspective), and he would suffer eternally? Again, the answer lies in the fact that they see Jewish suffering in the tangible while the suffering in hell is not tangible.

Now, if you look at all the bolded parts, you will see that the jist of why people changed their theology out of sympathy towards the holocaust victims yet they are okay in believing in hell and so forth, is really because, whether they admit it or not, they treat hell as less real than this tangible world. So the holocaust was really just a small glimpse of hell here in the tangible. And the glimpse of hell in the tagible is something they can't stand to the point of having to change their theology, while the full blown hell in the intangible is something they are willing to believe in, because even though they say they believe in it, deep down they treat it as intangible.


A lot of other social issues point to the same thing too. How come people are more mad at David Duke than they are at John Macarthur? David Duke never said Jews or blacks go to hell, he simply wants to change some policies here on earth, while John Macarthur says vast majority of people were predestined to hell from birth (even though this predestination is not related to skin color, how is it any better than if it was? whether its skin color or not, the bottom line is that they had no control over it). The reason David Duke is more offensive than John MacArthur is, again, because David Duke deals with the tangible while John Macarthur deals with intangible. People claim they treat hell as tangible, since they want to say they are Chrsitian. But the fact is they don't, as the above contrast illustrates.

By the way, I am a Christian. If you ask me what I believe Bible wants us to believe about those issues, I would be a lot more honest than most and say I don't know: Bible has many interpretations. But the above secular analysis should be considered, if you want to be honest with yourself.
I think enlightenment allowed us to become more aware of ourselves, our evil nature and how people can abuse power and treat others badly. Up until then it seems it was either powerful Empires, States or the Church that dictated and treated people badly. Were more interested in power than people. People were just the tools of power.

Though at the same time there was a movement within Christianity that promoted treating people fairly and humanely. The Church could justify slavery to hide their true motives for money and power while at the same time also being the leader in stopping slavery. So the church was not immune to the same forces all humans are subject to, our evil nature.

But I think perhaps thanks to more enlightened thinking we have become more aware of our evil nature and instigated laws to prevent such things. Though we may have always known this we were less organised and more primative perhaps. But certainly we have become more aware of our human nature and how we can harm others.

The Jews seems a strange case. It seems like there is some spiritual aspect to why people always target the Jews. They havn't done anything that other groups have done so its hard to work out why they were picked on more even by the church. The crusaders killed many Jews because they blamed them for Christs crucifixtion. So maybe theres this underlying resentment.

But even modern day antisemetism has no logic. Protestors get more passionate and angry at the Jews as opposed to any other people. We know many Islamist hate the Jews but that is a religious thing that goes way back. So did the Romans but then they didn't like Christians either.

But I think Christians today are warming to the Jews as Gods people even if they reject Christ. Christ was a Jew so of all nations he came as a Jew. There must be something to that.
 
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ViaCrucis

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as the vast majority of them hated Jews, to the point of seeing nothing wrong with Jews being isolated from the rest of society all those centuries.

That's quite the claim.

But let's ignore the truthfulness or lack thereof of the statement for the time being: Is hatred of the Jewish people something acceptable for followers of a certain Jewish carpenter to feel and act upon?

I can't help but think that you're telling on yourself here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Roman57

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That's quite the claim.

Historically its true though. Can you find examples from the middle ages of Christian countries that didn't hate Jews? If you try hard enough, you might, but this would be an exception to the rule rather than a rule. Such as one pope decided not to hurt Jews too much, in the context of popes before and after being more than happy to hurt them.

Is hatred of the Jewish people something acceptable for followers of a certain Jewish carpenter to feel and act upon?
I didn't say its acceptable. What I said is: if they didn't see an elephant in the room for 2 millenia but then suddenly they saw it, then one can legitimately ask: what allowed them to see it if they didnt sed it before?
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Holocaust was the culmination of centuries of antisemitism in Europe, which the Nazis found easy to exploit. When the rest of the world discovered just how awful the Holocaust was, the sort of cruelty and inhumanity with which the Nazis engaged in; there was--rightfully--a repulsion and horror.

It is true that the Holocaust played a role, it forced Christians in the West to confront something insidious and ugly.

Antisemitism has always been evil. Atrocities committed against Jewish people, by Christians, has always been evil and antichrist. The Holocaust did not make antisemitism evil and unacceptable; it showed that antisemitism--in fact, bigotry and hatred of any kind--is horrific, and it forced Christians from across denominations and traditions to re-think and re-evaluate historic attitudes toward our Jewish cousins.

It is the spirit of antichrist, not the spirit of Christ, that leads men to hate their fellow man and commit evil against them. For the way of Christ is peace, love, gentleness, mercy, and justice. The way of Christ takes up the cross, it does not crucify others.

We are, therefore, compelled by Christ our God and Lord, to live in accordance with His way; to regard all people in love, showing compassion, seeking the good of others--even if it costs us everything.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Carl Emerson

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The Jews seems a strange case. It seems like there is some spiritual aspect to why people always target the Jews.

Yes - the refusal to accept that God has the right to choose one people over another.

That is why Christians are also being targeted.

This hatred is Satanic.
 
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dispensationalism become prominent?

It was after the creation of the state of Israel. There were a few dispensationalists prior but Israel as a nation/state made the belief very much more widely accepted.

Then in the 80's and 90's some popular fiction hit the book stores about the end times and the belief system exploded into more of a cultural phenomenon.

I'm not a dispensationalist but I support Israel's right to both exist and defend itself. You don't even have to be Christian to do that, though I am now.

It's just a matter of right and wrong and Israel isn't in the wrong.
 
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stevevw

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Yes - the refusal to accept that God has the right to choose one people over another.

That is why Christians are also being targeted.

This hatred is Satanic.
This is interesting as when you trace the history going right back to the tribes of Isreal and throughout the many conflicts between people within the early formation of nations in that area and even beyond you see this constant and repeating battle between gods and the God of Isreal, the one true God.

The pagan and self made gods and the Pharohs and Kings that made themselves gods as opposed to the Living and only God of the Isrealites. This theme seems to repeat itself throughout time over and over.

So it seems this spirit of rebellion is still like the primitive defiance of God but with modern versions of false gods being used to deny the one true God. Almost like any god but the one true God.

I think the Jews represent God and so they become the tangible target. But its really the God behind the Jews that they reject.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I think modern Christians sympathise with the Jews mainly because of the Holocaust. Older episodes of anti-Semitism are too far back in history to have any real impact on the modern imagination. But the Holocaust is there for all to see - some camps still stand as mute testament of the evil of men. There are television shows about the Holocaust, and morbid scenes are available on YouTube anytime we want to watch them.

The Catholic Church incidentally saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Jews during World War II.


During the Holocaust, the Catholic Church played a role in the rescue of hundreds of thousands of Jews from being murdered by the Nazis. Members of the Church, through lobbying of Axis officials, provision of false documents, and the hiding of people in monasteries, convents, schools, among families and the institutions of the Vatican itself, saved hundreds of thousands of Jews. The Israeli diplomat and historian Pinchas Lapide estimated the figure at between 700,000 and 860,000, although the figure is contested.[1]
But they are not the only people to have suffered in modern history. The Armenians suffered a genocide in 1915-16; the Ukrainians had their Holodomor in 1932-33; the Cambodians witnessed the killing fields of Pop Pot; and the Communists killed millions.

Then there were the non-Jewish victims of the Nazis.


Five million is frequently cited as the number of non-Jews killed by the Nazis. The figure is inaccurate and was apparently an invention of famed Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal. According to historian Deborah Lipstadt, he began to refer to “eleven million victims” of the Holocaust, six million Jews and five million non-Jews in the 1970s. Wiesenthal later admitted making up the figure to promote interest in the Holocaust among non-Jews. Lipstadt, says “he chose five million because it was almost, but not quite, as large as six million.”

The number of non-Jewish civilians murdered for racial or ideological reasons in concentration camps, historian Yehuda Bauer estimates, was no more than half a million. As many as 35 million non-Jews were killed by the Nazis in the course of the war, he said.
For the Communists the figures vary - Mass killings under communist regimes - Wikipedia
  • In 2017, historian Stephen Kotkin wrote in The Wall Street Journal that 65 million people died prematurely under communist regimes according to demographers, and those deaths were a result of "mass deportations, forced labor camps and police-state terror" but mostly "from starvation as a result of its cruel projects of social engineering."[79][80]
But for some reason all the attention seems to be given to Jewish suffering while the others seem to be swept under the carpet. We don't hear much about them, despite the fact they vastly outnumber the Jewish deaths in total if not as a proportion.

What was the purpose of the Jews? It was to pave the way for Christ, the Son of God. When the Roman Empire arrived, so did He which meant his disciples could carry the Christian message to the edge of the known world of the time.


The tradition of Europe repeatedly affirms that Britain was the first country to receive the gospel, the British Church being the most ancient. When Augustine came to convert the pagan Saxons, the British Churches refused to accept him. Their argument was that they could not depart from their ancient customs. The British historian Gildas (AD 516-570) wrote that Christianity was introduced into Britain in AD 38, during the last year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (Morgan. 63-69).

in that respect they've served their purpose. I make no claim to know what God's plans are, but I do believe He's going to drive us off the planet. It's one of my crank opnions, although technology seems to be moving that way - space travel, robotics, artificial intelligence, space medicine, space stations, quantum entanglement, quantum computing - and our potential capacity to wreck our home planet seems to be more and more likely to become a reality the way things are going.

I don't know if a small nation on a remote planet is going to have a great deal of importance to future generations, but that's just my opinion.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Jeremiah 31

5 This is what the Lord says,
He who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
The Lord of armies is His name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
From Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the descendants of Israel also will cease
To be a nation before Me forever.”
37 This is what the Lord says:
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also reject all the descendants of Israel
For everything that they have done,” declares the Lord.
 
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Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The descendant of Israel and for that matter Abraham is the Church.

The great crowd of witnesses that Paul wrote about will by and large be Christians, not Israelites.

The Messiah has come. They're wasting their time waiting for another.
 
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