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Almost have Protestant friend converting - Need Quick Help

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NewMan99

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Judaica,


I see that you are new to CF. Perhaps you are unaware of it, but this is a congregation forum. There is no debate allowed here. You are welcome here to fellowship or to ask questions of our beliefs.


Like it or not, Luther did effect some massive changes to the canon...and inserting the word "alone" where the text itself did not is hardly the lone example of him tinkering with the Sacred Text. The author of this thread has a right to find, and share, evidence that Luther made significant changes to the Bible.


I agree with you that speaking of the splendor of the Catholic faith is a more positive approach to evangelization than speaking ill of Luther and the other so-called "Reformers" - however - you will have to forgive us if we point out some problematic areas of Luther's ministry, and his absolutely devastating effect on the Body of Christ. One can be truthful and unpolemic and still point out certain facts that many Protestants are unaware of.

Again, you are welcome to participate here, but you cannot debate. There are other forums set aside for that sort of thing.

Thanks! :wave:

God's Peace,

NewMan
 
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BigNorsk

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By the way, the epistle of straw statement is in the forward to the Book of James in the New Testament of Luther's translation. It's a pretty difficult interpretation that he was trying to throw out the Book of James when the very statement used to support that idea is right there in the Bible. Important to read things in context.

I don't know of a complete copy on the web. You can get it in Luther's Works. Luther quite softened on James in later years and preached sermons from James and the like. It appears that he came to realize that James uses words differently than Paul and his early misinterpretations were in keeping in line with how it was being taught in his time.

Hope that helps, if you're going to spend a lot of time on Luther getting Luther's Works on CD is a good investment.

Marv
 
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judaica

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I wasn't trying to debate. Didn't I say that that was all I was going to say on the matter? I'm sorry. I'll go somewhere else, and will not participate on this forum any longer. You'll have to forgive me, but it makes me ill, not only in the sense that fellow christians are being taken a swipe at, but that the RC is being degraded and cheapened, by a poster who in the name of his Church (ie conversion), wants "ammo". I am not defending Luther. He did alot of things I do not agree with, and ya'll can discuss that all day long, and I wouldn't say a word. But this poster should have enough respect for his fellow christians as well as his Church, to be able to discuss it in the spirit of true inquiry and not winning one for the "home team". Your Church and His Church, the RC, has gone through hell and back, through their ecumenical efforts to bring all christians into a common fellowship and communion. They have purposely been trying to use the very opposite in tatics. Forgive me, if it angers me, that one of her members could potentially be underminding her efforts. This may be a congregational forum, that's fine. But people from all different denominations come here everyday and read what is being said. I do not, and I will not tolorate the RC's efforts, and the ecumenical movement being underminded, because of the comments of some posters. And that's exactly what will happen, if a Lutheran for instance, comes here, and reads what this poster wrote. They'll think, well, the RC is just as I expected. They're not trying to reach out to us, I don't think I want to have anything to do with them. Everything you guys say here, as professed Roman Catholics is for those not of your religion, deflected back onto your Church, just like many people are not Christians, because of their experiences with actual Christians. I have seen this happen too many times, to not say anything. And seen all the hard work and labor the RC has put into trying to reunify the Church, and cannot stand it, when I see that underminded.

If I can't argue FOR the RC in that manner, if posters here are allowed to undermind their Church, and as professed christians, take a swipe at other christians, then I'll stay away.

God bless,
Judaica
 
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Rising_Suns

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Judacia,
I would ask you to please remain, as I sense your heart is in the right place. As Catholics, sometimes it's easy to become a little frustrated over time, dealing with the same misconceptions and slander on a daily basis. So if a handfull of our members come off as brash or rude, then please understand what may have led up to such a perspective. (this is not to excuse it, however). Also, private pm's usually work better with hashing out personal issues than in the public forum.

I hope you enjoy your stay here. :wave:

Blessings,

-Davide
 
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NewMan99

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Judaica,

First of all you are more than welcome to remain here in this forum. The ironic thing is that you are critical of the OP for taking a "wrong" approach to evangelization (i.e., focusing on the negatives of Luther instead of the positives about the CC). Perhaps if you really wanted to reach him a better way would have been a less in-your-face approach with him yourself. You are guilty of the same negative "wrong approach" with him that you are angry about with his approach. Do you see what I am saying?

Additionally, how do you know that he has not already spoken to his Protestant friend about the postive attributes of the Catholic faith, or that his friend doesn't really want to know the truth about the Protestant canon and other matters pertaining to Luther's use of the Bible? You make a lot of assumptions here without a lot of information to go by. It is entirely possible that both he and his friend are approaching this in a "true spirit of inquiry" - after all - doesn't the word "inquiry" presuppose a desire to gather information (i.e., evidence to support a case...or ammo as some might call it)?

I totally agree that it is better to speak of the positives of the CC. That being said, and I say this as a convert myself, being able to step back and re-think ones own theological perspective takes courage and a willingness to seek out evidence (the OP's word choice of "ammo" was unfortunate since that evokes a certain image) both positive and negative...and there is NOTHING wrong with seeing what is wrong about the Reformation from the Catholic standpoint -- and vice versa.

The other thing you forget is that his friend is asking for the information...it isn't as if it is being force-fed down his throat. There is a difference between trying to gather information to provide to someone who is an inquirer and trying to gather information to blast non-seekers with.

All I am asking you to do, is to please be as gentle with the OP as you would have him be with his friend. Speaking of how your perception of his approach makes you ill and angers you is not very gentle. That's all. Again, you are welcome to stay here and I do appreciate what you have said about the Catholic Church in general.

God's Peace,

NewMan
 
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Dominus Fidelis said:
Well, let's look at his words...he seems quite arrogant in his assertion that "alone" belongs in there because he says so...

"You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text" (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

Good day, Dominus Fidelis

Indeed n looking at his words, one can see that it is in fact a "German" issue and poper usage of the German.

I also know that in Rom. 3, the word "solum" is not present in
either Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me
that - it is fact! The letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these
knotheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same
time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text -
if the translation is to be clear and accurate, it belongs there.
I wanted to speak German since it was German I had spoken in
translation - not Latin or Greek. But it is the nature of our
language that in speaking about two things, one which is affirmed,
the other denied, we use the word "solum" only along with the word
"not" (nicht) or "no" (kein). For example, we say "the farmer
brings only (allein) grain and no money"; or "No, I really have no
money, but only (allein) grain"; I have only eaten and not yet
drunk"; "Did you write it only and not read it over?" There are a
vast number of such everyday cases.

In all these phrases, this is a German usage, even though it is
not the Latin or Greek usage. It is the nature of the German
tongue to add "allein" in order that "nicht" or "kein" may be
clearer and more complete. To be sure, I can also say "The farmer
brings grain and no (kein) money, but the words "kein money" do
not sound as full and clear as if I were to say, "the farmer
brings allein grain and kein money." Here the word "allein" helps
the word "kein" so much that it becomes a clear and complete
German expression.

We do not have to ask about the literal Latin or how we are to
speak German - as these a**es do. Rather we must ask the mother
in the home, the children on the street, the common person in the
market about this. We must be guided by their tongue, the manner
of their speech, and do our translating accordingly. Then they
will understand it and recognize that we are speaking German to
them.

For instance, Christ says: Ex abundatia cordis os loquitur. If I
am to follow these asses, they will lay the original before me
literally and translate it as: "Out of the abundance of the heart
the mouth speaks." Is that speaking with a German tongue? What
German could understand something like that? What is this
"abundance of the heart?" No German can say that; unless, of
course, he was trying to say that someone was altogether too
magnanimous, or too courageous, though even that would not yet be
correct, as "abundance of the heart" is not German, not any more
than "abundance of the house, "abundance of the stove" or
"abundance of the bench" is German. But the mother in the home
and the common man say this: "What fills the heart overflows the
mouth." That is speaking with the proper German tongue of the
kind I have tried for, although unfortunately not always
successfully. The literal Latin is a great barrier to speaking
proper German.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-translate.txt


Would you haven to know of any early German speaking people who took exeption to this argument on the needed "German" construction used by Luther?

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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NewMan99

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Hi Bill,

Mind if I take a stab at your question? It is a very fair question to ask.

Please consider that Luther's was NOT the first German translation of the Bible (merely the first to be translated from the Greek). In none of those other German translations did the word "alone" appear. Therefore all other translators "took exception" to Luther's addition of a word that did not exist in the original text.

If the word "alone" was so proper from a German language perspective, why then was Luther the only one to do it?

There is really only one reason why he inserted the word into a BIBLICAL TRANSLATION: in order to promote his novelty of "faith alone."

This is an all-important distinction from other translators (as well as the fathers and doctors of the Church), and something that Luther is rightly condemned for. For, it is abundantly true, as I said before, that no one else ever did this --that is, change the words in scripture itself. When Catholics criticize Luther, it is for intentionally changing the words in Scripture itself.

And while the term "faith alone" was used by Catholic fathers and doctors before Luther (as Fitzmyer's book correctly noted) , the historical reality is that NOT ONE OF THEM ---not even in one isolated case --meant by "faith alone" what Luther meant by "faith alone."

It is quite true that before the Council of Trent a wide range of opinions existed in Catholicism on the issue of justification. This is true, but only insofar as all binding dogmas (e.g. the authoritative decision of Trent) develop from competing theolegoumena (theological opinions), and so of course undeveloped theolegoumena existed in the Church before the dogmatic proclamation ended the debate. Yet, what is all-telling here is that NOT ONE of the pre-Tridentine theolegoumena on justification reflects the "faith alone" novelty of Luther! ...and this only hammers home the reality that NO ONE in the Church read Romans 3:28 as he did --ergo, no one shared his particular interpretation of Rom 3:28 or perceived the "implication" that Luther did. Luther introduced something that had never existed before; and an honest analysis of this history must recognize this.

Indeed, even if Luther were (which he was not) part of the valid, organic Catholic debate on justification prior to Trent, what this would mean is that he was merely presenting one possible opinion (theolegoumena) among others ---that he was merely putting forward his perceived interpretation of Romans 3:28 and what it (supposedly) implies. Ah! But, the fact that he made a biased translation of Romans for his followers, and so tampered with the words of Scripture itself shows that Luther was NOT merely offering an opinion, but was stacking the deck and eliminating any competing opinion. In other words, by changing the words OF SCRIPTURE ITSELF (something no father or doctor ever did), Luther was forcing Christians to adopt his interpretation ALONE --- that is, he was robbing Christians of the freedom to interpret Romans 3:28 in any other way, and so taking a mere theolegoumenon (theological opinion) - a novel and unprecedented one at that (his "faith alone" theory) - and making it MORE than a theolegoumenon. Luther was unilaterally proclaming his theolegoumenon to be a DOGMA --to be the Word of God itself! Yet, Luther had no magisterial authority to do such a thing, but was forcing his own opinion on the rest of the Church. And THIS is why we rightly criticize his action.

And, if you have any question about Luther's self-righteous opinion about this, consider his own testimony on the matter:

"Because I am certain of my teaching, with it I will judge over the angels, so that whoever does not accept my teaching cannot attain heaven, because it is God's, not mine." (Luther, WA 10II, 107, 9).

...and ....

"....I am not put off at all by passages of Scripture, even if you were to produce six hundred in support of the righteousness of works and against the righteousness of faith, and if you were to scream that Scripture contradicts itself." (Luther, LW 54, 20).

...and ....

"If the Papist make much fuss about the word sola (alone), tell him at once: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,' and says, 'Papist and donkey are one thing ...For we do not want to be pupils and followers of the Papists, but their masters and judges." (Luther, LW 13, 66;54, 74).

Real open-minded guy, wasn't he? He continues, mimicing the style of St. Paul ....

"Are they doctors? So am I. Are they learned? So am I. Are they preachers? So am I. Are they disputators? So am I. Are they philosophers? So am I. Are they writers of books. So am I? And I shall further boast: I can expound Psalms and Prophets; which they cannot. ....Therefore, the word "alone" shall remain in my New Testament, and though all the Pope-donkeys should get furious and foolish, they shall not take it out." (Ibid).


It is true that Luther wrote those words in anger against certain Catholic critics (whether or not his anger was justified in some cases is up for debate since some of the very people who criticized Luther's actions also took his translation and used it as their own -- with a few modifications of course...such a striking out the word "alone" in Rom 3:28). However, the bottom line here, aside from any bombastic rhetoric by Luther, is that he pointed to himself as the authority on the issue above and beyond whatever magisterial and historical opinion had to say on the matter. Simply stated, he inserted the word "alone" into the biblical text NOT because the German language demanded it, but rather because promotion of the novel doctrine of sola Fide, an invention of Luther's alone, was aided by the insertion of the word.

God's Peace,

NewMan


 
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NewMan99

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I would like to state for the record that my earlier critical observations of James Swan's blog in no way meant to impugn his character as a Christian or an apologist. I did not mean to imply that Mr. Swan was trying to mislead any of his readers or intentionally (key word) misrepresent the works of Fitzmyer.

That being said, I will reiterate that I disagree with Mr. Swan's conclusions on the subject matter. Once one analyzes the totality of Fitzmyer's work (and not just the brief excerpt in Mr. Swan's blog), it becomes apparent the Fitzmyer falls far short of saying that Luther's use of the phrase "faith alone" was in lock-step with the more ancient patristic use of it.

If Mr. Swan's point was to illustrate (via Fitzmyer's book) that Luther was not the first to use the phrase "faith alone" - then I agree. If, however, the point was to imply that the patristic use of it was the same as Luther's use of it - then I disagree...and so does Fitzmyer. Whether Mr. Swan intended for his readers to "connect the dots" or not is something only his readers can speculate for themselves about. I merely wanted to illustrate for those in this thread that Fitzmyer never intended to convey that the patristic use of the phrase and Luther's use of it were the same.

But I am perfectly content to say for the record that Mr. Swan and I merely disagree as to the conclusions we draw on the topic at hand. I do not doubt his integrity nor did I intend to convey any disrespect for him personally. I apologize to him if my words seemed too critical of him or his work.

God's Peace,

NewMan
 
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D'Ann

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NewMan99 said:
Hi Bill,

Mind if I take a stab at your question? It is a very fair question to ask.

Please consider that Luther's was NOT the first German translation of the Bible (merely the first to be translated from the Greek). In none of those other German translations did the word "alone" appear. Therefore all other translators "took exception" to Luther's addition of a word that did not exist in the original text.

Good Day, Newman99

Thanks for your response. I agree that Luther's was not the first german translation, but was the first in a common dielect for german people.

The previous translation like the The Nuremberg Bible of 1483, was done in "high" german and did at Roman 3:28 translate "allein durch den glauben," Which in that dielect is the same gramaticly as Luther's translation in his dielect.

Some one before Luther took execption before Luther ever wrote, that is a novel idea. Seeing that other's were based on differing German as noted above.

If the word "alone" was so proper from a German language perspective, why then was Luther the only one to do it?
There is really only one reason why he inserted the word into a BIBLICAL TRANSLATION: in order to promote his novelty of "faith alone."

I think Luther answered you question, because in order to make sence to the German (common) speaking people it was neeeded. That is why I was asking for some one during his time that may have addresses this, but I stilll wait.

I do not understand why this is hard to understand, we have thise sorts of things in english today, that is what makes our "english" diverse and in some cases completly differnet from state to state.

This is an all-important distinction from other translators (as well as the fathers and doctors of the Church), and something that Luther is rightly condemned for. For, it is abundantly true, as I said before, that no one else ever did this --that is, change the words in scripture itself. When Catholics criticize Luther, it is for intentionally changing the words in Scripture itself.

I have provide the "allein durch den glauben," from the
Nuremberg Bible of 1483, and will sumbit the
Italian Bibles of Geneva in 1476 and 1538 had "per sola fide."

These are both Roman Catholic translations before Luther that contained the phase you condem Luther for, even though he explained it's need in the german which he wrote. I also suspect the "gloss" of the 9 th centruy may have the same implications in it.



And while the term "faith alone" was used by Catholic fathers and doctors before Luther (as Fitzmyer's book correctly noted) , the historical reality is that NOT ONE OF THEM ---not even in one isolated case --meant by "faith alone" what Luther meant by "faith alone."
It is quite true that before the Council of Trent a wide range of opinions existed in Catholicism on the issue of justification. This is true, but only insofar as all binding dogmas (e.g. the authoritative decision of Trent) develop from competing theolegoumena (theological opinions), and so of course undeveloped theolegoumena existed in the Church before the dogmatic proclamation ended the debate. Yet, what is all-telling here is that NOT ONE of the pre-Tridentine theolegoumena on justification reflects the "faith alone" novelty of Luther! ...and this only hammers home the reality that NO ONE in the Church read Romans 3:28 as he did --ergo, no one shared his particular interpretation of Rom 3:28 or perceived the "implication" that Luther did. Luther introduced something that had never existed before; and an honest analysis of this history must recognize this.

This is true to some extent, but to deny that Luther's view is out side the realm of beliefs pre-trent is to restrict the true range of beliefs. I would suggest Luther falls in line with Clement of Rome, even though Clement was inconsistant at times, Luther was not.

And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen. What, then, shall we do, brethren? Shall we cease from well-doing, and abandon charity? May the Master never allow that this should happen to us! but let us rather with diligence and zeal hasten to fulfil every good work. For the Maker and Lord of all things rejoiceth in his works. By his supreme power he founded the heavens, and by his incomprehensible understanding he ordered them. The earth he separated from the water that surrounded it, and fixed it on the firm foundation of his own will. The animals which inhabit therein he commanded to be by his ordinance. Having made beforehand the sea and the animals that are therein, he shut them in by his own power. Man, the most excellent of all animals, infinite in faculty, he moulded with his holy and faultless hands, in the impress of his likeness. For thus saith God: Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness. And God made man. Male and female made he them. When, therefore, he had finished all things, he praised and blessed them, and said, Be fruitful, and multiply. Let us see, therefore, how all the just have been adorned with good works. Yea, the Lord himself rejoiced when he had adorned himself with his works. Having, therefore, this example, let us come in without shrinking to his will; let us work with all our strength the work of righteousness." (First Clement, 32-33)

Indeed, even if Luther were (which he was not) part of the valid, organic Catholic debate on justification prior to Trent, what this would mean is that he was merely presenting one possible opinion (theolegoumena) among others ---that he was merely putting forward his perceived interpretation of Romans 3:28 and what it (supposedly) implies. Ah! But, the fact that he made a biased translation of Romans for his followers, and so tampered with the words of Scripture itself shows that Luther was NOT merely offering an opinion, but was stacking the deck and eliminating any competing opinion. In other words, by changing the words OF SCRIPTURE ITSELF (something no father or doctor ever did), Luther was forcing Christians to adopt his interpretation ALONE --- that is, he was robbing Christians of the freedom to interpret Romans 3:28 in any other way, and so taking a mere theolegoumenon (theological opinion) - a novel and unprecedented one at that (his "faith alone" theory) - and making it MORE than a theolegoumenon. Luther was unilaterally proclaming his theolegoumenon to be a DOGMA --to be the Word of God itself! Yet, Luther had no magisterial authority to do such a thing, but was forcing his own opinion on the rest of the Church. And THIS is why we rightly criticize his action.

And, if you have any question about Luther's self-righteous opinion about this, consider his own testimony on the matter:

"Because I am certain of my teaching, with it I will judge over the angels, so that whoever does not accept my teaching cannot attain heaven, because it is God's, not mine." (Luther, WA 10II, 107, 9).

...and ....

"....I am not put off at all by passages of Scripture, even if you were to produce six hundred in support of the righteousness of works and against the righteousness of faith, and if you were to scream that Scripture contradicts itself." (Luther, LW 54, 20).

...and ....

"If the Papist make much fuss about the word sola (alone), tell him at once: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,' and says, 'Papist and donkey are one thing ...For we do not want to be pupils and followers of the Papists, but their masters and judges." (Luther, LW 13, 66;54, 74).

Real open-minded guy, wasn't he? He continues, mimicing the style of St. Paul ....

"Are they doctors? So am I. Are they learned? So am I. Are they preachers? So am I. Are they disputators? So am I. Are they philosophers? So am I. Are they writers of books. So am I? And I shall further boast: I can expound Psalms and Prophets; which they cannot. ....Therefore, the word "alone" shall remain in my New Testament, and though all the Pope-donkeys should get furious and foolish, they shall not take it out." (Ibid).
It is true that Luther wrote those words in anger against certain Catholic critics (whether or not his anger was justified in some cases is up for debate since some of the very people who criticized Luther's actions also took his translation and used it as their own -- with a few modifications of course...such a striking out the word "alone" in Rom 3:28). However, the bottom line here, aside from any bombastic rhetoric by Luther, is that he pointed to himself as the authority on the issue above and beyond whatever magisterial and historical opinion had to say on the matter. Simply stated, he inserted the word "alone" into the biblical text NOT because the German language demanded it, but rather because promotion of the novel doctrine of sola Fide, an invention of Luther's alone, was aided by the insertion of the word.

God's Peace,

NewMan



Luther says the text demanded it, I see no reason to doubt that, seeing the lack of German sources that would refute his usage in the German. That is what I am looking for.

If it was to support Sola Fide' as you say, I am sure given the nature of his writing as it related to those he disagreed with, and they way he roundly berated them, I do not suppose he could of refrained from saying so, nor should he have IMHO.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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Dominus Fidelis

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NewMan99 said:
Judaica,

First of all you are more than welcome to remain here in this forum. The ironic thing is that you are critical of the OP for taking a "wrong" approach to evangelization (i.e., focusing on the negatives of Luther instead of the positives about the CC). Perhaps if you really wanted to reach him a better way would have been a less in-your-face approach with him yourself. You are guilty of the same negative "wrong approach" with him that you are angry about with his approach. Do you see what I am saying?

Additionally, how do you know that he has not already spoken to his Protestant friend about the postive attributes of the Catholic faith, or that his friend doesn't really want to know the truth about the Protestant canon and other matters pertaining to Luther's use of the Bible? You make a lot of assumptions here without a lot of information to go by. It is entirely possible that both he and his friend are approaching this in a "true spirit of inquiry" - after all - doesn't the word "inquiry" presuppose a desire to gather information (i.e., evidence to support a case...or ammo as some might call it)?

I totally agree that it is better to speak of the positives of the CC. That being said, and I say this as a convert myself, being able to step back and re-think ones own theological perspective takes courage and a willingness to seek out evidence (the OP's word choice of "ammo" was unfortunate since that evokes a certain image) both positive and negative...and there is NOTHING wrong with seeing what is wrong about the Reformation from the Catholic standpoint -- and vice versa.

The other thing you forget is that his friend is asking for the information...it isn't as if it is being force-fed down his throat. There is a difference between trying to gather information to provide to someone who is an inquirer and trying to gather information to blast non-seekers with.

All I am asking you to do, is to please be as gentle with the OP as you would have him be with his friend. Speaking of how your perception of his approach makes you ill and angers you is not very gentle. That's all. Again, you are welcome to stay here and I do appreciate what you have said about the Catholic Church in general.

God's Peace,

NewMan

Thanks.

I do focus on the postives of Catholicism.

I asked a specific question about a specific topic because my friend was concerned about it. He came to me with the question about the Bible editing, by the way....I didn't even bring it up.

Edited out PS remarks.
 
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NewMan99

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Hi Bill,

You have raised a number of questions and issues here. Since these are perhaps questions that others here might have – and as long as this doesn’t turn into a debate, I will respond as best I can.

The first issue you raise is the question as to if others in Luther’s time took exception to his translation. When I replied that all other translators took exception you replied with:

Some one before Luther took execption before Luther ever wrote, that is a novel idea. Seeing that other's were based on differing German as noted above.

What I was getting at was that no other translations, in any language, had the word “alone” inserted in Romans 3:28…ergo…all other translators went a different direction with the text than Luther did. Hence, Luther’s work was an “exception” to the rule of how that verse had been translated by others. I will touch on the Nuremberg and Italian Bibles in a moment.

But…to more specifically address your question…it is incontrovertible that the Catholic Church vehemently took exception to Luther’s translation of Romans 3:28…so that is not even disputable. Therefore we can safely say that several biblical scholars and translators, etc…from that era took exception since several of them were Catholics.

So that leaves those who were not Catholic…would it be any surprise that those who were in Luther’s camp did not take exception to Luther’s insertion? I guess I don’t know exactly what you are asking. There were two primary camps in Germany in the early 16th century: Catholic and Lutheran. The Catholics took exception…and Luther’s translation was the exception to the rule compared to all other Bible translations.

Which brings us to these two statements by you:

The previous translation like the The Nuremberg Bible of 1483, was done in "high" german and did at Roman 3:28 translate "allein durch den glauben," Which in that dielect is the same gramaticly as Luther's translation in his dielect.

--- AND ---

I have provide the "allein durch den glauben," from the Nuremberg Bible of 1483, and will sumbit the Italian Bibles of Geneva in 1476 and 1538 had "per sola fide."

That's news to me, Bill. And here’s the problem with that. Not that I am an expert on this topic (compared to men like Fitzmyer), but if what you say here is true (I am NOT saying that you are lying…I simply believe that your information is not entirely accurate), that would be considered pretty big news, don’t you think? If that were true, Protestant apologists like James Swan, James White, Eric Svendsen, et.al. would never stop bringing it up.

The closest they can come is to bring up Fitzmyer’s list of patristic sources for the phrase “faith alone” (bearing in mind that the patristic use of the phrase was meant entirely differently than Luther’s use of it). They never bring up other “Catholic Bible translations” prior to Luther with the word “alone” in Romans 3:28…even though the standard Catholic position is that Luther was the first to insert it. And while this is an argument from silence, I would have to say that the silence is pretty deafening considering how noisy Protestant apologists would be if what you say is accurate.

So I guess I would be curious if you can find a source for me on this. I’ll be happy to re-visit this question again if you can point me in a direction on it.

What's more, even if it were true, it still doesn't matter or refute my point, since the Nuremberg Bible was a "scholarly novelty piece" and not an official text for the Catholic Church, whereas Luther's translation was created to be normative for his "church." Big difference. Also, I find it REALLY hard to believe that an Italian Bible in Geneva (1538) read "per sola fide." Maybe a latter PROTESTANT translation made for the Italian-speaking Swiss said that, but not in 1538. Also, your argument that the Nuremberg (Bavarian) dialect is the equivalent of Luther's (Franconian) statement is kind of a stretch. ;)

Now…new topic…

As for Luther’s assertion that the text demanded it for the common German language, well, I have to wonder then why German translations today do not have the insertion (neither Protestant nor Catholic). What more, I don’t know of any modern English Bibles (English is a Germanic language, and not a Romantic language like Latin, Italian, Spanish, French, etc…) that use it either (although I believe older KJV bibles did). That may be neither here nor there (since you are asking about the German language in the 16th century), but the supposed necessity to insert the word “alone” is something novel in Luther's translation. I know of no biblical scholar today who makes the claim that the German language demands its insertion into the text.

Also - if the German language "demanded it" - then why didn't Luther also insert "allein" in Galatians 2:16? If it was demanded in one case it would have been demanded in the other case too.

This is true to some extent, but to deny that Luther's view is out side the realm of beliefs pre-trent is to restrict the true range of beliefs.

Oh? :) Well, why don't you document an example of Lutheranism prior to Luther, then? You cannot do this because Luther's doctrine did not exist. He himself invented it.

Not everyone will see it this way, but I will submit that it was the product of his own paranoid, guilt-ridden psychology --that is, a back-lash against his personal self-accusing "demons," which he could not question or modify because it would mean (for him) returning to a life of paralyzing guilt. This was not a matter of theology, but of personal mental health --a personal "defense mechanism" which he sought to force on the rest of the Christendom (this is a matter of some controversy among Luther scholars...not everyone will agree...and no offense intended for our Lutheran guests here :wave:). So, your implication that there was a wide "range of beliefs" which included Lutheran extremism is simply not the reality. His belief was a 16th Century novelty which had no precedent in the Apostolic Faith.

I understand that what I just posted above is not a popular way of looking at it by most Lutherans and Protestants, but that is what I believe. This is a very complex topic and there is much more that could be said. It isn’t quite as simple as what I just summarized, but that is the general idea.

Lastly, I would like to comment on Clement:

I would suggest Luther falls in line with Clement of Rome, even though Clement was inconsistant at times, Luther was not.

St. Clement was not "inconsistent." St. Clement was CATHOLIC in his view of justification. His statements mirror the supposedly "inconsistent" teachings of St. Paul (per Romans 3:28 vs. 1 Corinth 13:2 & Gal 5:6). Neither Paul nor Clement taught "faith alone" as Luther did. For example, Clement writes ....

"Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words" (The Epistle of Clement, Chapter 30, NPNF, Vol. 9, page 238).

And, immediately following this, in chapter 31, Clement uses Abraham's work of sacrificing Isaac as an example of the kind of work that justifies. Referring to this, he writes ....

"Let us cleave then to His blessing, and consider what are the means of possessing it....For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?"


What kind of works does Clement consider as not justifying us? The first answer to this comes in Chapter 30. He writes:

"Let our praise be in God, and not of ourselves; for God hates those that commend themselves. Let testimony to our good deeds be borne by others, as it was in the case of our righteous forefathers."

Notice how this matches the following statement in Chapter 32


"All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will."

In other words, the kind of works that Clement is against in regards to justification are the works of boasting in our own deeds. This is the contrast he sets up in the context. Again, this agrees with Catholic doctrine and Scripture, for it is works of boasting which Paul is against (cf., Romans 2:17, 23, 3:27, 4:2; Eph. 2:8-9, not works wrought in faith (cf., Romans 2:5-13; Gal. 5:6). This is why the Council of Trent, in its very first canon, said:

"If anyone shall say that man can be justified before God by his own works which are done either by his own natural powers, or through the teaching of the Law, and without Divine grace through Christ Jesus; let him be anathema."

When Clement says, "or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart" he is referring to works which WE have deemed as worthy of payment. It is when we have deemed ourselves holy in the eyes of God. But Clement warns in Chapter 34, "Let our boasting and our confidence be in Him."


He then, again, in Chapter 34 directly states ...

"And thus He forewarns us: “Behold, the Lord cometh, and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his works."

Thus, the idea that St. Clement of
Rome was anything but Catholic is totally incorrect.


I will be leaving on vacation tomorrow for about a week. I’ll check back here next week to see if there is anything else to respond to.

I would like, again, to remind our guests that OBOB is a non-debate Congregational Forum. We invite questions about our faith (as Bill has done here), but we cannot really debate here in this forum (although there are other forums at CF that we can go to for that purpose).

Have a nice week (and 4th of July for the US folks here).

God’s Peace,

NewMan
 
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Aprill

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I just want to say that I feel its unfair to say that it is ammo. I think that if you are going to be educated about the Catholic Church (which I pray you are), that you need to know how and the whys of the church's history including other churchs and how they came to be. That is not ammo. That is simply an explaination to me. If not for the Catholic Church's history and reading about the misconceptions of all christian churchs, I would not probably have become Catholic.

So, if this thread isn't dead, I purpose that someone post what positive effects Luther's documentation had on the Catholic Church...there had to be some!
 
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