Advice On Marriage: Can We Be Married In God's Eyes If We Aren't Officially Married By The State?

[Jody McKinniss]

I have been considering this question of late, as I am a 43-year-old male who is deeply in love with a wonderful woman. We've been together for 3 and a half years now, and we want to get married. The problem is that if we do marry legally in the eyes of our state, we're going to suffer financially for it. We are both totally blind, both receiving Social Security Disability. Finding a job has proved to be extremely difficult, despite what should be an employee market, considering the current state of things. The job I had before is no longer viable, given the extremely low pay and lack of benefits (this would be even more so if we were to marry legally through the state, as you will see). If we marry according to state law, one or both of us will lose a chunk of the Social Security we receive. More than likely it will be a rather sizable chunk, as this state offers income to the visually impaired that isn't offered in any other state, and while it's not a massive amount (It's certainly not enough to offset the Social Security loss), it will affect Social Security and the amount that they choose to take from us. Given the current state of our finances, losing that chunk would be a sizable detriment to us moving forward. Whether intentional or not, the effect is that we would be penalized and adversely affected, simply for doing the "right" thing by following the laws of the state and allowing them to oversee, or know of, our marriage. Therefore, I have been wondering whether we would be considered married in the eyes of God if we had a Christian minister willing to perform the ceremony without the legal license. He would marry us, we would stand before him and before God and exchange vows as is normal; we just wouldn't get an official license or let the state know. I don't really care about "pleasing" the state, especially when doing so means that we are penalized in this way. However, I do want to please God, so this is an issue for the both of us. I know that the Bible says that we are to honor the laws of our government, but given the current state of this nation, I am willing to posit that most of those who currently sit in their positions of government authority weren't put there by God. It feels to me as if this country has gotten so far away from God since it was founded that we're like the Israelites lost in the wilderness, and at the moment, we don't even see that we're lost, or perhaps, it is simply that we do not care. The result is the same. We're not looking for either the cloud or the pillar to guide us home. That being the case, why should I concern myself with honoring a governmental structure that has so clearly removed God from itself? At this point, there is clear and cogent evidence that makes me believe that marriage licenses issued by the state have nothing to do with recognizing God or the solemnity of the covenant into which the parties are entering, and are solely a way for the state to make money by overseeing what is nothing more to them than a business contract, a contract that, by what I've seen, holds less value to them than one drawn up between two corporations. The largest evidence of this can be found by looking at the stance that this country takes on divorce as a whole. As of 2019, all 50 states have allowed no-fault grounds for divorce. This means that a couple can simply divorce without showing any legitimate grounds such as adultery, physical or mental abuse, etc., which is in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ on the matter. A lot of states allow divorces to be filed with specific grounds as well, but only if the parties wish it; it is not required, and the parties are simply allowed to divorce without any sort of proof of wrongdoing. Furthermore, there are 17 states that are known as "true" no-fault states. This means that there is no option to show legitimate grounds for divorce, and couples can only file on no-fault grounds. One of these 17 happens to be the state in which we live. Moreover, While it is true that having the legal license from the state offers some protections, there are laws that allow some, if not all, of those same protections without a marriage license.
For me, the question becomes, why should I honor a government that doesn't in any way at the present honor God? Not only do they not honor Him, they take it a step further; they actively seek to remove Him at every turn. Further, why should I honor a government that is going to make things more financially difficult for the both of us, simply for obeying its laws? Finally, wouldn't God be more pleased if we were to marry, even without the blessing (I believe oversight is the better word in this case) of the state? As it stands now, we are currently living together even though we aren't married. While a part of this is, of course, borne of love and a desire to be together, it is also very much borne of financial necessity and practicality. It seems to me that it would be better to make the covenant with each other and with God, even if we didn't share our acceptance of the covenant with the state, as opposed to continuing with the current status quo. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Respectfully,
Seeking Answers

 

[Albion]

You might be able to find a minister to do that, but I'm not sure the technicality would put you right with God, especially since you'd have to lie to every civil and secular authority you do business with. Jesus was living under one of the most unjust governments most of us could image and you know what his advice was concerning obeying (or not) that authority.

However, that's just one thought. I'm more concerned for the moment about the loss of SS benefits which you call "sizable."

I am wondering if you have the financial consequences of this potential marriage on the SS benefits of both of you (and, by the way, upon IRS returns, too), straight from "the horse's mouth," or are you going by what you've heard somewhere.

 

[eleos1954]

I have been considering this question of late, as I am a 43-year-old male who is deeply in love with a wonderful woman. We've been together for 3 and a half years now, and we want to get married. The problem is that if we do marry legally in the eyes of our state, we're going to suffer financially for it. We are both totally blind, both receiving Social Security Disability. Finding a job has proved to be extremely difficult, despite what should be an employee market, considering the current state of things. The job I had before is no longer viable, given the extremely low pay and lack of benefits (this would be even more so if we were to marry legally through the state, as you will see). If we marry according to state law, one or both of us will lose a chunk of the Social Security we receive. More than likely it will be a rather sizable chunk, as this state offers income to the visually impaired that isn't offered in any other state, and while it's not a massive amount (It's certainly not enough to offset the Social Security loss), it will affect Social Security and the amount that they choose to take from us. Given the current state of our finances, losing that chunk would be a sizable detriment to us moving forward. Whether intentional or not, the effect is that we would be penalized and adversely affected, simply for doing the "right" thing by following the laws of the state and allowing them to oversee, or know of, our marriage. Therefore, I have been wondering whether we would be considered married in the eyes of God if we had a Christian minister willing to perform the ceremony without the legal license. He would marry us, we would stand before him and before God and exchange vows as is normal; we just wouldn't get an official license or let the state know. I don't really care about "pleasing" the state, especially when doing so means that we are penalized in this way. However, I do want to please God, so this is an issue for the both of us. I know that the Bible says that we are to honor the laws of our government, but given the current state of this nation, I am willing to posit that most of those who currently sit in their positions of government authority weren't put there by God. It feels to me as if this country has gotten so far away from God since it was founded that we're like the Israelites lost in the wilderness, and at the moment, we don't even see that we're lost, or perhaps, it is simply that we do not care. The result is the same. We're not looking for either the cloud or the pillar to guide us home. That being the case, why should I concern myself with honoring a governmental structure that has so clearly removed God from itself? At this point, there is clear and cogent evidence that makes me believe that marriage licenses issued by the state have nothing to do with recognizing God or the solemnity of the covenant into which the parties are entering, and are solely a way for the state to make money by overseeing what is nothing more to them than a business contract, a contract that, by what I've seen, holds less value to them than one drawn up between two corporations. The largest evidence of this can be found by looking at the stance that this country takes on divorce as a whole. As of 2019, all 50 states have allowed no-fault grounds for divorce. This means that a couple can simply divorce without showing any legitimate grounds such as adultery, physical or mental abuse, etc., which is in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ on the matter. A lot of states allow divorces to be filed with specific grounds as well, but only if the parties wish it; it is not required, and the parties are simply allowed to divorce without any sort of proof of wrongdoing. Furthermore, there are 17 states that are known as "true" no-fault states. This means that there is no option to show legitimate grounds for divorce, and couples can only file on no-fault grounds. One of these 17 happens to be the state in which we live. Moreover, While it is true that having the legal license from the state offers some protections, there are laws that allow some, if not all, of those same protections without a marriage license.
For me, the question becomes, why should I honor a government that doesn't in any way at the present honor God? Not only do they not honor Him, they take it a step further; they actively seek to remove Him at every turn. Further, why should I honor a government that is going to make things more financially difficult for the both of us, simply for obeying its laws? Finally, wouldn't God be more pleased if we were to marry, even without the blessing (I believe oversight is the better word in this case) of the state? As it stands now, we are currently living together even though we aren't married. While a part of this is, of course, borne of love and a desire to be together, it is also very much borne of financial necessity and practicality. It seems to me that it would be better to make the covenant with each other and with God, even if we didn't share our acceptance of the covenant with the state, as opposed to continuing with the current status quo. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Respectfully,
Seeking Answers

well .... adam and eve didn't have "paper certification" and for sometime after .... depending on the state in which you live ..... common law could come into play .... might be wise to keep finances/property separate.

When one gets married and they are people of faith are their vows to the state or to God?

Pray about it and proceed as you feel led.

 

[Albion]

well .... adam and eve didn't have "paper certification"

and at that time there was no state to deal with, so that's not a good comparison.

depending on the state in which you live ..... common law could come into play

Only eight states still recognize Common Law marriages now, but to the extent that they might still be available, for them to be recognized the parties have to present themselves to society as being married, which apparently isn't the situation we're being asked about here.

Pray about it and proceed as you feel led.

 

[Silverback]

I have been considering this question of late, as I am a 43-year-old male who is deeply in love with a wonderful woman. We've been together for 3 and a half years now, and we want to get married. The problem is that if we do marry legally in the eyes of our state, we're going to suffer financially for it. We are both totally blind, both receiving Social Security Disability. Finding a job has proved to be extremely difficult, despite what should be an employee market, considering the current state of things. The job I had before is no longer viable, given the extremely low pay and lack of benefits (this would be even more so if we were to marry legally through the state, as you will see). If we marry according to state law, one or both of us will lose a chunk of the Social Security we receive. More than likely it will be a rather sizable chunk, as this state offers income to the visually impaired that isn't offered in any other state, and while it's not a massive amount (It's certainly not enough to offset the Social Security loss), it will affect Social Security and the amount that they choose to take from us. Given the current state of our finances, losing that chunk would be a sizable detriment to us moving forward. Whether intentional or not, the effect is that we would be penalized and adversely affected, simply for doing the "right" thing by following the laws of the state and allowing them to oversee, or know of, our marriage. Therefore, I have been wondering whether we would be considered married in the eyes of God if we had a Christian minister willing to perform the ceremony without the legal license. He would marry us, we would stand before him and before God and exchange vows as is normal; we just wouldn't get an official license or let the state know. I don't really care about "pleasing" the state, especially when doing so means that we are penalized in this way. However, I do want to please God, so this is an issue for the both of us. I know that the Bible says that we are to honor the laws of our government, but given the current state of this nation, I am willing to posit that most of those who currently sit in their positions of government authority weren't put there by God. It feels to me as if this country has gotten so far away from God since it was founded that we're like the Israelites lost in the wilderness, and at the moment, we don't even see that we're lost, or perhaps, it is simply that we do not care. The result is the same. We're not looking for either the cloud or the pillar to guide us home. That being the case, why should I concern myself with honoring a governmental structure that has so clearly removed God from itself? At this point, there is clear and cogent evidence that makes me believe that marriage licenses issued by the state have nothing to do with recognizing God or the solemnity of the covenant into which the parties are entering, and are solely a way for the state to make money by overseeing what is nothing more to them than a business contract, a contract that, by what I've seen, holds less value to them than one drawn up between two corporations. The largest evidence of this can be found by looking at the stance that this country takes on divorce as a whole. As of 2019, all 50 states have allowed no-fault grounds for divorce. This means that a couple can simply divorce without showing any legitimate grounds such as adultery, physical or mental abuse, etc., which is in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ on the matter. A lot of states allow divorces to be filed with specific grounds as well, but only if the parties wish it; it is not required, and the parties are simply allowed to divorce without any sort of proof of wrongdoing. Furthermore, there are 17 states that are known as "true" no-fault states. This means that there is no option to show legitimate grounds for divorce, and couples can only file on no-fault grounds. One of these 17 happens to be the state in which we live. Moreover, While it is true that having the legal license from the state offers some protections, there are laws that allow some, if not all, of those same protections without a marriage license.
For me, the question becomes, why should I honor a government that doesn't in any way at the present honor God? Not only do they not honor Him, they take it a step further; they actively seek to remove Him at every turn. Further, why should I honor a government that is going to make things more financially difficult for the both of us, simply for obeying its laws? Finally, wouldn't God be more pleased if we were to marry, even without the blessing (I believe oversight is the better word in this case) of the state? As it stands now, we are currently living together even though we aren't married. While a part of this is, of course, borne of love and a desire to be together, it is also very much borne of financial necessity and practicality. It seems to me that it would be better to make the covenant with each other and with God, even if we didn't share our acceptance of the covenant with the state, as opposed to continuing with the current status quo. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Respectfully,
Seeking Answers

This is how I see it

If you know that getting married legally would cause you to lose certain entitlements, and you try to circumvent that by entering into a non binding marriage simply to avoid this, then at best it's deceptive.

Other than maintaining your entitlements, what else would you gain by doing this? I don't see how you would gain anything over your current situation.

 

[Dave G.]

So you expect God to honor your marriage when you didn't do it above reproach or to make it official, legal and binding. At that, over money. Have you considered that it's He who provides, why do you think He would not be faithful to do so in some way that He already knows but you don't ? If you do this underhanded how can you bring your marriage before God to be blessed while living a lie ? You may lose more than you gain . No, do this above reproach and you may suddenly find that job or other means of support that more than gains for the loss. But it seems unlikely the other way.

And I'm not speaking for God but I doubt He would want a marriage to start out in deceit. Besides that I question if you could find a legit minister of God's to perform this marriage under those circumstances.

 

[Blade]

Told this to my son..its not the paper that makes you married. Now that being said.. for ME I live in the USA so I must if I want to be married have that paper and God is 100% in agreement. That does not go against the word of God in any way. That is a law I must obey in Gods eyes.

 

[walkswithFire]

I think you need to pray about this. God will bless your finances when you do the right thing. You need to know what the right thing is and you need to trust in him when he tells you. Whatever that may be.

 

[eleos1954]

and at that time there was no state to deal with, so that's not a good comparison.

Only eight states still recognize Common Law marriages now, but to the extent that they might still be available, for them to be recognized the parties have to present themselves to society as being married, which apparently isn't the situation we're being asked about here.

well living together isn't breaking any state laws ... yeah I know they didn't ask ...
there are bad and/or unfair laws (abortion) ... so ... seems to me if they were married without a state license .... God would honor their vows to one another (and they need to keep them with one another) ... really not sure if they would even need clergy, seems biblically is up to her father (if still alive) to give her.

So ... does God now recognize marriage between same sex couples just because the laws of the land says so? (rhetorical question).

They need to pray about it and follow God's lead.

Personally ... I think it is this biblically. If her father is alive he decides if
the woman can be given in marriage or not.

A marriage is valid in God’s eyes if a man has the permission of a woman’s father or if her father is gone and she is living on her own she consents to marriage. He can enter into a covenant of marriage with her in private and that marriage is just as binding in God’s eyes as if they had a public ceremony with a pastor or priest and state marriage license.

“16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.”

Exodus 22:16-17 (KJV)

2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.”

Deuteronomy 7:2-3 (KJV)

12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever.”

Ezra 9:12 (KJV)

“And that we would not give our daughters unto the people of the land, not take their daughters for our sons”

Nehemiah 10:30 (KJV)

“6 Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished.”

Jeremiah 29:6 (KJV)

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 22:30 (KJV)

 

[The Righterzpen]

I have been considering this question of late, as I am a 43-year-old male who is deeply in love with a wonderful woman. We've been together for 3 and a half years now, and we want to get married. The problem is that if we do marry legally in the eyes of our state, we're going to suffer financially for it.

First off, I would check and make sure your understanding of SSDI benefits is accurate. There are some instances where getting legally married is considered a "protected marriage" and there is no penalty on one's social security for it.

For example; my son is developmentally disabled and if he married another developmentally disabled person; their marriage is considered "protected" and would not affect their benefits. So, make sure you have a proper understanding of what SSDI law actually says. There are certain exceptions to the "rules".

From what I've been able to find; a "protected marriage" does not only cover adult children collecting on a parent's record; it also covers two individuals who receive SSDI on their own records. If two qualifying people get married; the marriage is considered "protected". If one qualifying person marries a non-qualifying person than the marriage is not considered protected.

What Happens When Persons Living with Disabilities Marry? [Guide]

Your Free Guide to Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) - OPG Guides

Also, certain means of collecting Social Security can affect one in different ways. I'm a service connected disabled veteran and my veteran benefits are not taxable. My son collects SSDI on his father's social security record and I get an allotment from Social Security on my former husband's record, (he is deceased) for caring for my son. Now I could collect SSDI for myself, but what I get as a "care giver" stipend for my son is not taxable, but my own SSDI could be, if I went to work and made over a certain amount of money. There are loop holes in the law that way; which "make X not applicable" because of "condition Y". So make sure you have the correct information.

That being the case, why should I concern myself with honoring a governmental structure that has so clearly removed God from itself?

Now as per what you said about government's rightful authority, God and issues of conscience? That's a harder one to navigate, because there is recognition in Scripture of unlawful civil authority. There's grounds to disobey civil authority when they are in violation of Scripture.

This question is particularly pertinent right now on multiple levels; in regards to vaccine mandates, public health, emergency use authorization of experimental (basically it's a gene therapy they are calling a "vaccine") options in absence of other effective treatments. None of which actually applies to this current pandemic, because there are effective treatments which makes the emergency use authorization illegal as "public health policy" in the realm of forcing a mandate. It's not in violation for those who opt for the vaccine under "right to try" laws; but because there are other effective treatments, the current administration is actually in violation of the Constitution.

And this only covers what's legal in regards to the civil authority's own laws and not even addressing Scripture as applies to safety, efficacy, religious exemptions, and the fundamental human right of not forcing someone to violate their own conscience. And THAT (forcing violation of one's own conscience) is violation of Scripture. Not even to mention the whole right to bodily autonomy. Which is also another Scriptural principle.

(But that's a whole other ball of wax and not the direct subject of this thread!)

"When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty" Thomas Jefferson

Yet there still remains the reality that human rebellion often gets in the way of what may be legally righteous grounds for civil disobedience. Thus a "check your heart and conscience at the door of Scripture" paradigm.

But yeah, I get where you're coming from on both levels.

 

[Jody McKinniss]

No, this is "from the horse's mouth" as it were, considering that the horse's mouth in this case is personal experience. I was previously married (that's another story for another day), but the point is, when we got married, Social Security took approximately a third of my benefits. So I know for a fact that this will occur if we officially marry. Frankly, it makes me angry that for following the law, for doing the "right" thing in the eyes of the state, we will be penalized. I'd think the state would WANT folks to get married. This is the sort of thing that actively discourages it, though, at least for folks in similar situations to ours. I have friends that have wanted to marry, but are unwilling to, because of this very issue. We are not in debt to the extent that most of America is, but by the same token, we do have some obligations, and losing a chunk of one or both of our benefits would cause a serious hardship.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I have been considering this question of late, as I am a 43-year-old male who is deeply in love with a wonderful woman. We've been together for 3 and a half years now, and we want to get married. The problem is that if we do marry legally in the eyes of our state, we're going to suffer financially for it. We are both totally blind, both receiving Social Security Disability. Finding a job has proved to be extremely difficult, despite what should be an employee market, considering the current state of things. The job I had before is no longer viable, given the extremely low pay and lack of benefits (this would be even more so if we were to marry legally through the state, as you will see). If we marry according to state law, one or both of us will lose a chunk of the Social Security we receive. More than likely it will be a rather sizable chunk, as this state offers income to the visually impaired that isn't offered in any other state, and while it's not a massive amount (It's certainly not enough to offset the Social Security loss), it will affect Social Security and the amount that they choose to take from us. Given the current state of our finances, losing that chunk would be a sizable detriment to us moving forward. Whether intentional or not, the effect is that we would be penalized and adversely affected, simply for doing the "right" thing by following the laws of the state and allowing them to oversee, or know of, our marriage. Therefore, I have been wondering whether we would be considered married in the eyes of God if we had a Christian minister willing to perform the ceremony without the legal license. He would marry us, we would stand before him and before God and exchange vows as is normal; we just wouldn't get an official license or let the state know. I don't really care about "pleasing" the state, especially when doing so means that we are penalized in this way. However, I do want to please God, so this is an issue for the both of us. I know that the Bible says that we are to honor the laws of our government, but given the current state of this nation, I am willing to posit that most of those who currently sit in their positions of government authority weren't put there by God. It feels to me as if this country has gotten so far away from God since it was founded that we're like the Israelites lost in the wilderness, and at the moment, we don't even see that we're lost, or perhaps, it is simply that we do not care. The result is the same. We're not looking for either the cloud or the pillar to guide us home. That being the case, why should I concern myself with honoring a governmental structure that has so clearly removed God from itself? At this point, there is clear and cogent evidence that makes me believe that marriage licenses issued by the state have nothing to do with recognizing God or the solemnity of the covenant into which the parties are entering, and are solely a way for the state to make money by overseeing what is nothing more to them than a business contract, a contract that, by what I've seen, holds less value to them than one drawn up between two corporations. The largest evidence of this can be found by looking at the stance that this country takes on divorce as a whole. As of 2019, all 50 states have allowed no-fault grounds for divorce. This means that a couple can simply divorce without showing any legitimate grounds such as adultery, physical or mental abuse, etc., which is in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ on the matter. A lot of states allow divorces to be filed with specific grounds as well, but only if the parties wish it; it is not required, and the parties are simply allowed to divorce without any sort of proof of wrongdoing. Furthermore, there are 17 states that are known as "true" no-fault states. This means that there is no option to show legitimate grounds for divorce, and couples can only file on no-fault grounds. One of these 17 happens to be the state in which we live. Moreover, While it is true that having the legal license from the state offers some protections, there are laws that allow some, if not all, of those same protections without a marriage license.
For me, the question becomes, why should I honor a government that doesn't in any way at the present honor God? Not only do they not honor Him, they take it a step further; they actively seek to remove Him at every turn. Further, why should I honor a government that is going to make things more financially difficult for the both of us, simply for obeying its laws? Finally, wouldn't God be more pleased if we were to marry, even without the blessing (I believe oversight is the better word in this case) of the state? As it stands now, we are currently living together even though we aren't married. While a part of this is, of course, borne of love and a desire to be together, it is also very much borne of financial necessity and practicality. It seems to me that it would be better to make the covenant with each other and with God, even if we didn't share our acceptance of the covenant with the state, as opposed to continuing with the current status quo. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Respectfully,
Seeking Answers

Christians need to obey the law of the land. If we will honour God's word, He will ensure that we are looked after. Who is your provider, God or the state? I highly recommend that you submit to the state requirements. Rome was not a democracy and punishments could be brutal. But Christians were exhorted to submit (Romans 13:1, 1 Peter 2:13).

Of course there are exceptions. However, very few people in Western nations have reason to disobey rulers. You don't have to like them. In a democracy, Christians get the government they pray for. Obviously the Church has failed to pray as it should in many nations.

My advice would be to marry and trust the Lord. It's easy for me, of course. I'm divorced. There was a time when I was paying child support for my two kids. My ex moved and I did not know where they were. I decided not to pay child support because she broke the terms of a legal agreement. All that achieved was a long term debt that took years to pay off. No blessing came of my dummy spit. The government simply docked my pay anyway. I finally met my kids 15 years later. They told me how hard I'd made it for them for the several months I refused to pay support. Yes, I was treated unfairly, yes men should not be forced to pay support for children that they cannot see. But the law is what it is.

 

[Albion]

No, this is "from the horse's mouth" as it were, considering that the horse's mouth in this case is personal experience.

I was afraid that it would be a mistake on my part to use that expression.

What I was referring to was this--have you asked the Social Security Administration what the effect would be on your benefits (and those of your intended's) if you married...and would it be a "sizeable" loss of benefits if there is any?

I was previously married (that's another story for another day), but the point is, when we got married, Social Security took approximately a third of my benefits. So I know for a fact that this will occur if we officially marry.

Not necessarily. There are a number of variables that could come into play in your case and probably will. You really should inquire at your local Social Security office.

Frankly, it makes me angry that for following the law, for doing the "right" thing in the eyes of the state, we will be penalized.

That wouldn't be the reason for any reduction in benefits--if there are indeed any.

 

[Jody McKinniss]

@The Righterzpen,
In my previous marriage, I received SSDI benefits from the record of my mother (who has been dead for many years), and my then wife received SSDI from her own record due to a major mental illness. Two people, receiving SSDI, and they cut my benefits by approximately 1/3. So that marriage obviously wasn't "protected", which makes no sense to me per your above regarding two people on disability. I have a couple of friends who live in this state with me. They live about 15 minutes from me, actually. They are both blind, both received Social Security, and when they got married, they took his benefits completely, because they say that his wife made too much income, even though her sole income is her SS benefits. So it seems to me that Social Security continues to show time and time again that marriage is something that isn't "protected." And we absolutely cannot afford to lose income at the moment.
As for common law marriage, this state is one that does not recognize them. You are correct, 8 states still recognize common-law marriages. Five additional states will recognize them if they were before a certain date. However, I believe that all 50 states recognize common law marriage if the parties came from a state where they are valid, and are considered to be married in that state. Irrelevant here, but just a little legal discussion, as law is a passion of mine.

 

[The Righterzpen]

@The Righterzpen,
In my previous marriage, I received SSDI benefits from the record of my mother (who has been dead for many years), and my then wife received SSDI from her own record due to a major mental illness. Two people, receiving SSDI, and they cut my benefits by approximately 1/3. So that marriage obviously wasn't "protected", which makes no sense to me per your above regarding two people on disability. I have a couple of friends who live in this state with me. They live about 15 minutes from me, actually. They are both blind, both received Social Security, and when they got married, they took his benefits completely, because they say that his wife made too much income, even though her sole income is her SS benefits. So it seems to me that Social Security continues to show time and time again that marriage is something that isn't "protected." And we absolutely cannot afford to lose income at the moment.
As for common law marriage, this state is one that does not recognize them. You are correct, 8 states still recognize common-law marriages. Five additional states will recognize them if they were before a certain date. However, I believe that all 50 states recognize common law marriage if the parties came from a state where they are valid, and are considered to be married in that state. Irrelevant here, but just a little legal discussion, as law is a passion of mine.

Here's an example where it pays (literally) to know Social Security law; to be able to defend yourself or get a lawyer who will do so. Clearly, Social Security says certain marriages are protected. Yet people working in the Social Security Administration are often arbitrary and even punitive; as they have certain amount of leeway to make decision for the agency; which aren't often in accordance with the regulations.

I know this because I've gone to court for my son's social security about 7 or 8 times now. This is over the course of 18 or so years. Every time I won the case and had no lawyer to represent him. I've had people in the Social Security office flat out lie, one woman was the "reviewer" of the appeal that she herself denied. (That's not allowed according to Social Security's own regs.) I had one worker tell me I shouldn't get two years worth of back pay.

I've gotten my son's records and looked at who wrote up the denial for disability benefits and why. The last go around for SSDI based on permanently disabled before 22 years old; the social worker who did the assessment, wrote up the assessment as "significantly disabled"; but she turned around and wrote on the "residual functional capacity" (which is the write up the state assessor uses to determine eligibility) that he wasn't disabled at all.

Thing I've learned about any system like that; if you're a really good record keeper; you can usually win your case. In 8 or so court cases with 5 to 6 different judges; I won every case; and I have absolutely no legal background. I've also won court cases dealing with family court, the school district and Child Protective. Admittedly, I'm far more organized than most parents I've encountered.

All this being said; not everyone in the system is bad. We've had good Social Security workers, good CPS workers and fair judges. You need to know how to dig though and stand your ground if you find in the regs that X,Y or Z should be one way and it's not.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

I have been considering this question of late, as I am a 43-year-old male who is deeply in love with a wonderful woman. We've been together for 3 and a half years now, and we want to get married. The problem is that if we do marry legally in the eyes of our state, we're going to suffer financially for it. We are both totally blind, both receiving Social Security Disability. Finding a job has proved to be extremely difficult, despite what should be an employee market, considering the current state of things. The job I had before is no longer viable, given the extremely low pay and lack of benefits (this would be even more so if we were to marry legally through the state, as you will see). If we marry according to state law, one or both of us will lose a chunk of the Social Security we receive. More than likely it will be a rather sizable chunk, as this state offers income to the visually impaired that isn't offered in any other state, and while it's not a massive amount (It's certainly not enough to offset the Social Security loss), it will affect Social Security and the amount that they choose to take from us. Given the current state of our finances, losing that chunk would be a sizable detriment to us moving forward. Whether intentional or not, the effect is that we would be penalized and adversely affected, simply for doing the "right" thing by following the laws of the state and allowing them to oversee, or know of, our marriage. Therefore, I have been wondering whether we would be considered married in the eyes of God if we had a Christian minister willing to perform the ceremony without the legal license. He would marry us, we would stand before him and before God and exchange vows as is normal; we just wouldn't get an official license or let the state know. I don't really care about "pleasing" the state, especially when doing so means that we are penalized in this way. However, I do want to please God, so this is an issue for the both of us. I know that the Bible says that we are to honor the laws of our government, but given the current state of this nation, I am willing to posit that most of those who currently sit in their positions of government authority weren't put there by God. It feels to me as if this country has gotten so far away from God since it was founded that we're like the Israelites lost in the wilderness, and at the moment, we don't even see that we're lost, or perhaps, it is simply that we do not care. The result is the same. We're not looking for either the cloud or the pillar to guide us home. That being the case, why should I concern myself with honoring a governmental structure that has so clearly removed God from itself? At this point, there is clear and cogent evidence that makes me believe that marriage licenses issued by the state have nothing to do with recognizing God or the solemnity of the covenant into which the parties are entering, and are solely a way for the state to make money by overseeing what is nothing more to them than a business contract, a contract that, by what I've seen, holds less value to them than one drawn up between two corporations. The largest evidence of this can be found by looking at the stance that this country takes on divorce as a whole. As of 2019, all 50 states have allowed no-fault grounds for divorce. This means that a couple can simply divorce without showing any legitimate grounds such as adultery, physical or mental abuse, etc., which is in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ on the matter. A lot of states allow divorces to be filed with specific grounds as well, but only if the parties wish it; it is not required, and the parties are simply allowed to divorce without any sort of proof of wrongdoing. Furthermore, there are 17 states that are known as "true" no-fault states. This means that there is no option to show legitimate grounds for divorce, and couples can only file on no-fault grounds. One of these 17 happens to be the state in which we live. Moreover, While it is true that having the legal license from the state offers some protections, there are laws that allow some, if not all, of those same protections without a marriage license.
For me, the question becomes, why should I honor a government that doesn't in any way at the present honor God? Not only do they not honor Him, they take it a step further; they actively seek to remove Him at every turn. Further, why should I honor a government that is going to make things more financially difficult for the both of us, simply for obeying its laws? Finally, wouldn't God be more pleased if we were to marry, even without the blessing (I believe oversight is the better word in this case) of the state? As it stands now, we are currently living together even though we aren't married. While a part of this is, of course, borne of love and a desire to be together, it is also very much borne of financial necessity and practicality. It seems to me that it would be better to make the covenant with each other and with God, even if we didn't share our acceptance of the covenant with the state, as opposed to continuing with the current status quo. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Respectfully,
Seeking Answers

I understand the point you make about financially, but in the end is it worth it financially to save some money in order to risk lying to people? You might say you don't care about the state but I want to make a couple points:

People in Jesus's time didn't want to pay taxes but Jesus advised on doing so. Not paying taxes would save money but would be lying to the state about income.

Now spiritually:

This is from experience. I had prayed with my now wife for Jesus to view us as married before our initial wedding date because although we were planning to get married we were really wanting to consummate our marriage, or verbal marriage. HUGE MISTAKE. I had a panic attack that felt like I was dying afterwards and it only stopped when I continued to repent of what we had done over and over. Scientifically you could label that a panic attack and leave it at that but I was not nervous about anything and I believe without a shadow of a doubt that that was 100% a consequence of my premarital action. I wanted to rush things or cut corners but after we were legally married that panic like feeling never returned like after we had attempted to pray our way into marriage without it being legal.

Long story short I don't think it's worth it to save money to risk not honoring God by not legally being married. You'll look back and see it as a worthwhile investment.

 

[aiki]

I have been considering this question of late, as I am a 43-year-old male who is deeply in love with a wonderful woman. We've been together for 3 and a half years now, and we want to get married. The problem is that if we do marry legally in the eyes of our state, we're going to suffer financially for it.

And God? Is He not your Provider?

You are commanded in Scripture to obey the authorities and the laws of the land they enact so long as doing so does not violate God's commands.

Therefore, I have been wondering whether we would be considered married in the eyes of God if we had a Christian minister willing to perform the ceremony without the legal license. He would marry us, we would stand before him and before God and exchange vows as is normal; we just wouldn't get an official license or let the state know. I don't really care about "pleasing" the state, especially when doing so means that we are penalized in this way.

As you seem to recognize, marriage is not made real by a certificate from the government. Long before such certificates existed, people were well-and-truly married to each other. But pleasing the State in this instance is pleasing to God. Is God hampered in providing well for you and your would-be spouse because of State policy? Will you trust God or contrive these "work-arounds" instead?

My father owned a thriving business back in 1979. He had half a dozen fellows working for him, and was jammed to the eyebrows with accounts clamoring for his expertise. At that time, he was making around a $100,000 a year, which was a lot in those days. But, the call of God came to him to move us all (six young children and a wife) to a church in the middle of nowhere in rural Saskatchewan to serve as its pastor. Doing so meant my Dad's income would shrink to $24,000 a year. He would be earning a quarter of what he'd been earning via his own business.

But it was clearly God's will that my Dad do so. Would he obey God? What would it look like to live on so little? Would God supply as He promised? There was only one way to find out. We ended up in one of the oldest houses in the town, almost a hundred years old when we moved into it. No upstairs heating except for a grate in the floor of the hallway, which made things very frosty on winter mornings. One bathroom off the kitchen, of all places. No basement to speak of. But, you know, while there were some...adjustments we had to make, we never felt hard done by. God supplied in a myriad of ways for our family, again, and again, and again. And what a thrill to see God do so! We had so much food given to us over the years! Half a butchered cow every year, deer and moose meat, tons of vegetables, baked goods, eggs, milk, and on and on. We never wore the latest fashions but we never looked shabby or poverty-stricken. We never rode about in the nicest cars but we weren't bouncing around in pieces of junk, either. God provided money, clothing, even vehicles when they were needed.

I tell you all this to assure you that God's will, done God's way will never lack God's supply. Obey God and leave the consequences up to Him. Trust Him. He's faithful.

For me, the question becomes, why should I honor a government that doesn't in any way at the present honor God? Not only do they not honor Him, they take it a step further; they actively seek to remove Him at every turn. Further, why should I honor a government that is going to make things more financially difficult for the both of us, simply for obeying its laws? Finally, wouldn't God be more pleased if we were to marry, even without the blessing (I believe oversight is the better word in this case) of the state? As it stands now, we are currently living together even though we aren't married.

Already, then, you are in disobedience to God. You should not be living together, however practical doing so seems to you. Doing so is sin. And your current objections to the government sound convenient rather than an expression of a desire to honor God. Your reasoning here would allow you to throw off any law of the government that didn't suit you. Why pay taxes to a godless government? Why license a firearm with a godless government? Why follow building codes issuing from a godless local government? And so on.

I notice, too, that you are quite willing to accept funds from a godless government. This seems, in light of your objections to such a government, a bit...inconsistent.

What's your real reason for wanting to circumvent legal marriage? Honoring God doesn't seem to be part of the picture at all. Why, then, not just continue in sin as you are?

 

[Jody McKinniss]

@The Righterzpen,
I have often felt that if someone is going to work in the SSA, they should be required to undergo IQ testing and/or other assessments to ensure that they can adequately perform the job for which they are being hired. In the 25 years that I've been receiving SSDI as an adult, you would not believe the number of times that someone in that agency has done the wrong thing, thereby messing up my benefits. I've walked the appeal road multiple times with them, and while in hte end I have always won, that walk is stressful, and to my way of thingking, completely unnecessary; folks should just do their jobs correctly. I suspect that some of the problem stems from a lack of communication (the left hand not talking to the right, and so on), and the rest is probably attributable to all of the extra "power" that the workers have, able to make decisions for SSA that they really shouldn't be.
All of that being said, my plan is to contact them on Monday and get exact figures from them (assuming that the person actually knows what they're doing; it's so hit-and-miss; it really depends on who you get) regarding what will happen with my benefits should I marry. This conversation will be recorded so that I have proof should I need it. I have verified that I can do that, as this is a one-party consent state with respect to recordings (Mo. Rev. Stat. § 542.402.2). We'll see what they say.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I have often felt that if someone is going to work in the SSA, they should be required to undergo IQ testing and/or other assessments to ensure that they can adequately perform the job for which they are being hired.

So true! although I think with many pubic service workers; the issue is more one of apathy than not actually knowing the job!

Do you know who your particular worker is at your local social security office? My son has a pretty good one, so sometimes I'll just call and ask specifically for her; (because I know she knows what she's doing too).

I'll definitely pray for you guys as to the outcome of this.

"These are the times that try mens' souls." (In more ways than one!)

 

[Jody McKinniss]

I'm using a screen reader, a piece of software for the blind, to read these posts, so I actually missed a post above. I'd like to respond to that post now. I don't quite know how to quote the post portions the way others have done in this thread, so I'll do it slightly differently.
@aiki,
You said:
"And God? Is he not your provider?"
Of course, I believe that God does provide. I also am a logical and practical person (which God knows, as He is the one who created me), and practically speaking, losing a chunk of our income after we officially marry is going to be a hardship. Recognizing that fact, and wondering whether it can be prevented, isn't done because I don't trust God, but rather, is done as a result of past life experiences that I'd rather not repeat. Perhaps it's a bit human; I never said I was perfect.
You said:
"Already then, you are in disobedience to God. You should not be living together, however practical doing so seems to you. Doing so is sin."
Where in the Bible does Christ say that simply living with another person is sin? I see no such statement. He says adultery is a sin, but neither of us are married to another, and adultery doesn't require cohabitation. He says fornication is a sin. That doesn't require cohabitation either, but I suspect it's what you are assuming is the sin being committed. So, does that mean that you are just automatically assuming that we make love? Perhaps it would have been beneficial to ask if you truly wanted to know, as if you believe that we are as your comment suggests, you are wrong. Never, not once, have we made love. So fornication is out as well. Therefore, unless I've missed something in Christ's teachings that specifically says that simply living in the same location and sharing income with another is sin, your statement seems to be incorrect.
You said:
"And your current objections to the government sound convenient rather than an expression of a desire to honor God."
My objections to the current government might sound "convenient", but they're fact. Also, I have objections to the government which are far beyond the scope of marriage and are objections I didn't list in my post, as they're irrelevant to what I was asking. Perhaps my objections in my post sound "convenient" because I limited the particular objections I listed in my post to those that deal directly with the issue of marriage and the way it is viewed by the government, in my opinion, based on the evidence I provided. Any government that makes divorce so easy, that allows couples to divorce with no proof of a need for same, is not interested in the sanctity of marriage, nor are they interested in preserving God's role in marriage. They are using marriage as a way to acquire revenue. That was my point. So, it wasn't so much an objection (though I object wholeheartedly), but was rather an illustration of our government's decline and turning away from God. There are myriad other illustrations of this, not the least of which was the Supreme Court upholding state bans on people attending church last year. Sure, they reversed their stance on that eventually, but not completely. Our Constitution, a document created at a time when this country held Christian beliefs in higher esteem, makes plain that freedom of religion is sacred in this country, and nine people at the very top of the law crushed it beneath their feet. No way do I believe that decision was of God. Want more proof of our decline? Let's see. Engel v. Vitale (370 U.S. 421; 82 S. Ct. 1261; 8 L. Ed. 261), Roe v. Wade (410 U.S. 113; 93 S. Ct. 705; 35 L. Ed. 147), Planned Parenthood v. Casey (505 U.S. 833; 112 S. Ct. 2791; 120 L. Ed. 2d 674), Obergefell v. Hodges (576 U.S. 644; 135 S. Ct. 2584; 192 L. Ed. 2d 609), Whole Woman's Health v. Hellerstedt (579 U.S. 582; 136 S. Ct. 2292; 195 L. Ed. 2d 665), just to name a few. My objections that I laid out in my post were to illustrate the government's apathy toward God and their lack of interest in marriage. It might make them "convenient", but it doesn't mean they aren't valid.
You said:
"I notice, too, that you are quite willing to accept funds from a Godless government. This seems, in light of your objections to such a government, a bit...inconsistent."
Are you suggesting that I should just say, "Well, the government doesn't honor God, so we should eschew our SSA benefits and become homeless." That seems silly. Willingness has nothing to do with it. I NEED that income. Without it, I'm on the street or in a homeless shelter. Been there, done that, don't care to repeat it. Trust me, I'd rather have a great job with good pay and good benefits, so I could tell the SSA to keep their money. But I don't have that at the moment, and I can't.
You said:
"Honoring God doesn't seem to be part of the picture at all."
Really? If honoring God weren't part of the picture, do you think I'd have wasted my time finding this forum, registering, then writing my post?
You said:
"Why, then, not just continue in sin as you are?"
Again, really? If you really believe that us living together is a sin, then shouldn't you be pleased that I'm considering marriage? If you really think I'm sinning, then the fact that I desire to marry at all should be encouraging, as a sign that my heart is heading for repentance. If you really believe that I'm sinning simply by the fact that we share the same address, then surely you don't mean to encourage such a thing. I suspect that you're attempting to use sarcasm as a tool here. It falls flat, though, because even if we marry according to the laws of the state, no matter if we let the entire world know, we will still sin after we're married. I guarantee it. It's part of being human. We are blessed by God's grace, and by His faithfulness to forgive us if we repent and ask. If the litmus test of our relationship with Christ is that we never sin, that we are 100% perfect after establishing that relationship with Him, then we are all doomed to fail that test miserably.