Adam, Eve, and evolution

[tonychanyt]

See Adam, Eve, and Evolution

 

[Grip Docility]

By evolution, I mean the scientific theory that posits all living organisms are related and have descended from common ancestors.

I should preamble this by saying that the following is all my speculation.

From the scientific perspective in terms of space-time, God created the earth with evolutionary events, including dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc., embedded in it. Homo sapiens neanderthalensis became extinct around 40,000 years ago. Homo sapiens sapiens replaced them. The unusual fact is that of all the dozens of homo (human) species that existed, home sapiens (sapiens) is the only one surviving today.

Today's humans, Adam, Eve, and so on, anatomically belong to Homo sapiens. Both Neanderthals and we have 46 chromosomes, though there is some uncertainty about that. Neanderthals existed only in space-time and not in witnessed-time; as such, they never received a breath of God in their spirits. They would not be judged to go to heaven or hell. The last ice age maximum happened about 20,000 years ago. That's before Adam and Eve. The difference between the (space-time) homo sapiens and the descendants of Adam and Eve is that the latter are capable of languages with advanced complex grammar.

From the biblical point of view, God created Adam and Eve in witnessed-time as described in Genesis. Acts 17:


In terms of first-order logic, both perspectives are true: witnessed-time and space-time. Both are real. Scientists found 46,000-year-old roundworms alive beneath the Arctic ice.

Near the end of the last deglaciation, around 15,000 years ago, Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden and entered the backdrop of the Neolithic Age of Mesopotamia. Physical evidence indicates that farming started around 12,000 years ago and humans domesticated sheep around 10,000 years ago. Cain was a farmer, and Abel was a shepherd.

Was there evidence of deaths before Adam and Eve sinned?

From the point of view of witnessd-time, no. From the point of view of space-time, probably yes, or else God could have done the embedding after he cursed the ground. In either case, there was no evidence of deaths in the Garden of Eden before they sinned.

Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

Sure, but you don't have to. You can assume evolution happened in space-time without believing in it.

See also

• How old is the earth?
• The utility of evolution

This travels into the territory of "Speculative" discussion. I know that the earth and Universe that it is contained within are very Old, for sure. This is why so many people have issues believing in Spiritual things, because they struggle with the existence of things that seem to contradict biblical account. Many church systems of belief arose out of attempts to combat these new found ideas.

Me? I know one thing for certain. I wasn't there for any of it. I'm here, now. Scripture continues to proof itself accurate beyond question.

God? He's Infinite. It's no surprise that the Universe continues to be dated as older and older.

Maybe I'll come back and share a few thoughts on this interesting discussion.

 

[Mark Quayle]

By evolution, I mean the scientific theory that posits all living organisms are related and have descended from common ancestors.

I should preamble this by saying that the following is all my speculation.

From the scientific perspective in terms of space-time, God created the earth with evolutionary events, including dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc., embedded in it. Homo sapiens neanderthalensis became extinct around 40,000 years ago. Homo sapiens sapiens replaced them. The unusual fact is that of all the dozens of homo (human) species that existed, home sapiens (sapiens) is the only one surviving today.

Today's humans, Adam, Eve, and so on, anatomically belong to Homo sapiens. Both Neanderthals and we have 46 chromosomes, though there is some uncertainty about that. Neanderthals existed only in space-time and not in witnessed-time; as such, they never received a breath of God in their spirits. They would not be judged to go to heaven or hell. The last ice age maximum happened about 20,000 years ago. That's before Adam and Eve. The difference between the (space-time) homo sapiens and the descendants of Adam and Eve is that the latter are capable of languages with advanced complex grammar.

From the biblical point of view, God created Adam and Eve in witnessed-time as described in Genesis. Acts 17:


In terms of first-order logic, both perspectives are true: witnessed-time and space-time. Both are real. Scientists found 46,000-year-old roundworms alive beneath the Arctic ice.

Near the end of the last deglaciation, around 15,000 years ago, Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden and entered the backdrop of the Neolithic Age of Mesopotamia. Physical evidence indicates that farming started around 12,000 years ago and humans domesticated sheep around 10,000 years ago. Cain was a farmer, and Abel was a shepherd.

Was there evidence of deaths before Adam and Eve sinned?

From the point of view of witnessd-time, no. From the point of view of space-time, probably yes, or else God could have done the embedding after he cursed the ground. In either case, there was no evidence of deaths in the Garden of Eden before they sinned.

Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

Sure, but you don't have to. You can assume evolution happened in space-time without believing in it.

See also

• How old is the earth?
• The utility of evolution

That's a pretty good way to put it. But, of course, only 'a way to look at it'.

One thing I like about the Bible is right there in Genesis 1:1. While it has been historically taken to mean that there was no existence except for God's existence before the first book of the Bible, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" is what it says. That leaves a lot of room for whatever he may have created before that. Whether or not it is true that something was created before that, or even whether the notion of 'day' is not as current 24 hours in subsequent verses, or other ways to look at it, this verse allows for speculation. I'm not going to say here whether any speculation is true or not, and I'm not going to say whether or not some of them are blasphemous or heretical. But I will say that if they do not agree with the whole of scripture and the particular parts of scripture, they are not true.

 

[AV1611VET]

From the scientific perspective in terms of space-time, God created the earth with evolutionary events,

God spoke the universe into existence.

Evolution can't talk.

... including dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc., embedded in it.

Dinosaurs, yes.

Neanderthals didn't come around until the days when the Jews wandered in the wilderness.

And King David was one for awhile.

In my opinion.

 

[Grip Docility]

By evolution, I mean the scientific theory that posits all living organisms are related and have descended from common ancestors.

I should preamble this by saying that the following is all my speculation.

From the scientific perspective in terms of space-time, God created the earth with evolutionary events, including dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc., embedded in it. Homo sapiens neanderthalensis became extinct around 40,000 years ago. Homo sapiens sapiens replaced them. The unusual fact is that of all the dozens of homo (human) species that existed, home sapiens (sapiens) is the only one surviving today.

Today's humans, Adam, Eve, and so on, anatomically belong to Homo sapiens. Both Neanderthals and we have 46 chromosomes, though there is some uncertainty about that. Neanderthals existed only in space-time and not in witnessed-time; as such, they never received a breath of God in their spirits. They would not be judged to go to heaven or hell. The last ice age maximum happened about 20,000 years ago. That's before Adam and Eve. The difference between the (space-time) homo sapiens and the descendants of Adam and Eve is that the latter are capable of languages with advanced complex grammar.

From the biblical point of view, God created Adam and Eve in witnessed-time as described in Genesis. Acts 17:


In terms of first-order logic, both perspectives are true: witnessed-time and space-time. Both are real. Scientists found 46,000-year-old roundworms alive beneath the Arctic ice.

Near the end of the last deglaciation, around 15,000 years ago, Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden and entered the backdrop of the Neolithic Age of Mesopotamia. Physical evidence indicates that farming started around 12,000 years ago and humans domesticated sheep around 10,000 years ago. Cain was a farmer, and Abel was a shepherd.

Was there evidence of deaths before Adam and Eve sinned?

From the point of view of witnessd-time, no. From the point of view of space-time, probably yes, or else God could have done the embedding after he cursed the ground. In either case, there was no evidence of deaths in the Garden of Eden before they sinned.

Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

Sure, but you don't have to. You can assume evolution happened in space-time without believing in it.

See also

• How old is the earth?
• The utility of evolution

Alright, Speculative Theology... here we go.

"Speculative Theology".

Ok, from Genesis 1:1-19, there is a GIGANTIC Time Gap! Until verse 19, there is no Sun or Moon to keep track of 24 hour days. What God did with the universe up until this point is only known by God. God has Moses writing in Genesis what WE want to know about our origin, however, to say that this is ALL there is to know is also a VERY speculative statement!

God is the first and always existing, infinite HUMANOID Creator. He has always had some form of PHYSICAL expression and because we are made in HIS image, not the other way around, we know 1000000000% that He is Humanoid, living and breathing! Also, whether people like it or not, time is a CONSTRUCT of God. God is beyond it, for sure! An Octillion years for God is like a day for us. This is beyond the comprehension of our Grey matter.

If God played dinosaurs before verse 20, then wiped the drawing board clean and started over, just for fun, He very well could have. By the way, the Adam account specifies that God created everything out of relational desire! Eve is made specifically because it is not good that "man" (God) be alone! It's right there! God is RELATIONAL and He's the first ARTIST! This universe is His Canvas! We know that it is most wise to believe that Genesis 1 shows God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, or we can just as easily say, the first Humanoid Being (Infinite) to have a Body, Spirit and Soul as He peacefully dwelled apart from any other thing existing. From Gen 1:1-19, Time doesn't exist as an earthly concept.

God could have played with various methods to create and again, chunked out an ice age to redo the drawing board. He kind of showed us something like this when Adam is given all of creation to experience without a suitable companion. This could very well be God telling us that all the Dinosaurs and big cool stuff in the world just didn't fill His heart with what He was desiring. He may have been creating and experiencing, but just not pleased with the overall idea.

If someone suggests that God can actually experience life, moment by moment in some way shape or form... ANTHROPOMORPHISM gets screamed at the top of someone's lungs! I find this statement hilarious, because WE are made in God's Image, not the other way around! Mankind has a habit of assuming that God is some Blind Beast of flat leveled existence, bound by experiencing everything as if it were a rerun on TV. My internal monologue about this is always; "HAVE ya read the Gospels"?!?

This concludes my speculative theology discussion, unless you find it interesting and want to bat it back and forth just because we can, under the large umbrella of "Speculative".

P.S. I'll just flat out say it! I believe that the very substance of anything that exists is made up of either the Son (Physical Substance) or the Father (Spiritual Substance), depending on the location. Heaven (God's Domain) or our (Terrestrial Universe). So, to me, as scientists look for the "God Particle", I kind of laugh. In my juvenile boyish humor, I'm thinking, idiot's, it's all God Particles.

This said, I am serious about believing that Omnis Humanity matters to God, because in my very Soul, I believe that this entire Universe is the very Tabernacle of God. Tabernacles within tabernacles within tabernacles. This said, God is the most masterful Architect! Even today, our greatest weapons of war, like jets and missiles are all fashioned after Bird bodies that are hyper efficient! Also, the further we go into development, the more we struggle to directly harness God's provided mechanisms and motions for energy storage or energy generation. God has the lock and key on Master Class design and no matter how much mankind thinks they can improve it, He always gets the last laugh without even trying! More "Natural" designs tend to always be superior to manmade ideas.

But... But.... Computers and technology! Yeah, okay, beat the computer language of DNA! Spoiler alert, we haven't even EYE Witnessed the Spiritual realm yet!

PS, if anyone is offended by this, Tony made me write it! Okay, just kidding, he didn't. Sometimes, I just want to claim divine determinism and scream God made me do it! Take it up with Him! ... Then I read my Bible and realize that isn't even close to the actual narrative, so bummer, I'm responsible for my own misery.

 

[eleos1954]

By evolution, I mean the scientific theory that posits all living organisms are related and have descended from common ancestors.

I should preamble this by saying that the following is all my speculation.

From the scientific perspective in terms of space-time, God created the earth with evolutionary events, including dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc., embedded in it. Homo sapiens neanderthalensis became extinct around 40,000 years ago. Homo sapiens sapiens replaced them. The unusual fact is that of all the dozens of homo (human) species that existed, home sapiens (sapiens) is the only one surviving today.

Today's humans, Adam, Eve, and so on, anatomically belong to Homo sapiens. Both Neanderthals and we have 46 chromosomes, though there is some uncertainty about that. Neanderthals existed only in space-time and not in witnessed-time; as such, they never received a breath of God in their spirits. They would not be judged to go to heaven or hell. The last ice age maximum happened about 20,000 years ago. That's before Adam and Eve. The difference between the (space-time) homo sapiens and the descendants of Adam and Eve is that the latter are capable of languages with advanced complex grammar.

From the biblical point of view, God created Adam and Eve in witnessed-time as described in Genesis. Acts 17:


In terms of first-order logic, both perspectives are true: witnessed-time and space-time. Both are real. Scientists found 46,000-year-old roundworms alive beneath the Arctic ice.

Near the end of the last deglaciation, around 15,000 years ago, Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden and entered the backdrop of the Neolithic Age of Mesopotamia. Physical evidence indicates that farming started around 12,000 years ago and humans domesticated sheep around 10,000 years ago. Cain was a farmer, and Abel was a shepherd.

Was there evidence of deaths before Adam and Eve sinned?

From the point of view of witnessd-time, no. From the point of view of space-time, probably yes, or else God could have done the embedding after he cursed the ground. In either case, there was no evidence of deaths in the Garden of Eden before they sinned.

Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

Sure, but you don't have to. You can assume evolution happened in space-time without believing in it.

See also

• How old is the earth?
• The utility of evolution

Can you be Christian and believe in evolution? No they are mutually exclusive ... unless you dismiss Genesis and Jesus re-affirmed Genesis.

Scripture gives the complete genealogy from Adam to Jesus. If Adam was a parable or mythological or not literally true ... then so is Jesus!

spacetime is a mathematical model, not fact.
scientific models are not created to be factual statements about the world.

Microevolution is simply a change in gene frequency within a population. Evolution at this scale can be observed over short periods of time
We observe and accept what is termed micro-evolution (biblically stated as after their kind).

According to Genesis everything was originally created fully formed. Fully formed and within it genetic codes with many possible variations (micro-evolution).

Mark 10:6 says, “But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’” From this passage, we see that Jesus clearly taught that the creation was young, for Adam and Eve existed “from the beginning,” not billions of years after the universe and earth came into existence.

“For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day” (Exodus 20:11).

Adam and Eve created on the 6th day

The Sixth Day

…26Then God said, “Let Us make man (mankind) in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.” 27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Gods image ... not an image of animals or "evolving" from them.

evening and the morning was the first day

Time itself is an illusion ... if there is not an intelligent mind to comprehend it .... it doesn't exist. God created time for mankind for His purposes and time is exclusive to planet earth.

Time as originally created ends on planet earth after final judgement when God destroys everything and makes everything new.

Earth is not "ground zero" for when time started (according to science) ... no scientist believes that ... so why would we apply earth time to the universe? Science theorizes time is a 4th dimension ... but has no proof that it is. They have to because without time being considered a dimension the entire theory of evolution falls apart ... time is evolutions major pillar of belief.

We live in a world of three dimensions.

We move through space , either left or right, forward or backward, up or down. Everything around us, from the houses we live in to the objects we use in everyday life, has three dimensions: height, length, and width.

God is not constrained by earth time ... He created it for mankind with purposes.

You can assume evolution happened in space-time without believing in it.

Assumptions or truth as stated in His written word.

Proverbs 30:5-6 English Standard Version 2016 (ESV)

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

I'm sticking with God.

 

[Qubit]

What Science calls the 'Big Bang' happened here...

Genesis 3:6
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

You folks seriously need to update your theologies.

Prelapsarian vs. Postlapsarian. Huge difference! No death existed before the Fall, remember?

Let us not forget that there was Genetic Engineering happening before the Flood. Did you add that fact to your 'descended from common ancestors' equation? No, of course not.

Until the Theory of Evolution can account for DNA Augmentation by Fallen Angels long ago, it is a false, or at best insufficient, theory.

 

[AV1611VET]

What Science calls the 'Big Bang' happened here...

Negative.

The "Big Bang" is a misnomer, and never occurred as scientifically documented.

In fact, a "big bang" will be at the END of time, not at the BEGINNING.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

As usual, science has it backwards.

You folks seriously need to update your theologies.

Be careful what you ask for.

You just might get it.

Prelapsarian vs. Postlapsarian. Huge difference! No death existed before the Fall, remember?

Correct.

No death before the Fall.

Let us not forget that there was Genetic Engineering happening before the Flood.

That is correct.

And centuries after the Flood as well.

But this Christian nation put a stop to it.

Did you add that fact to your 'descended from common ancestors' equation? No, of course not.

Until the Theory of Evolution can account for DNA Augmentation by Fallen Angels long ago, it is a false, or at best insufficient, theory.

Science doesn't factor into its equations the supernatural realm.

And as a result, they'll never come to a full knowledge of the truth.

This is one of my favorite pictures:

 

[Ace777]

God created the earth with evolutionary events,

Genesis chapter one follows science and evolution exactly. Of course there is an issue with time because time is relative. For me if someone wants to have an opinion I would prefer a PhD that has put years into what they study. Compared to a high school drop out who has barely put seconds of consideration into what they want to promote. I tend to have a short attention span so it is easy for me to see that in others.

 

[Ace777]

In fact, a "big bang" will be at the END of time, not at the BEGINNING.

So you plan on going out with a bang?

 

[AV1611VET]

So you plan on going out with a bang?

You betcha!

Note: I'll be raptured first and given a glorified body.

 

[Ace777]

Was there evidence of deaths before Adam and Eve sinned?

Cain said there was: and God seems to agree.

Genesis 4:15 "But the LORD said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him."

We do not know how old people were because they did not age until after the flood.

 

[Ace777]

Note: I'll be raptured first and given a glorified body.

When are you given an glorified body?

 

[Ted-01]

Cain said there was: and God seems to agree.

Genesis 4:15 "But the LORD said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him."

We do not know how old people were because they did not age until after the flood.

Don't the events in Gen. 4:15 come after the sin/death of Adam and Eve?
If so... why are you arguing that they prove that there was death priot to the sin/death of Adam and Eve?

 

[Ace777]

If so... why are you arguing that they prove that there was death priot to the sin/death of Adam and Eve?

TE

Theistic evolution—also known as evolutionary creationism—is an attempt to reconcile evolution with belief in God.

Here’s the essence of it:

1. God’s Role: Theistic evolution posits that God acts and creates through natural laws. While evolution unfolds through natural processes, God is seen as the primary cause, guiding the entire process.
2. Compatibility: It accepts scientific consensus on topics like the age of the Earth, the Big Bang, and evolution. Supporters believe that religious faith and scientific theories don’t necessarily contradict each other.
3. Key Premises:
   • Cosmological Model: The universe began about 13.8 billion years ago.
   • Fine-Tuned Universe: The remarkable precision of physical constants suggests design.
   • Evolution and Natural Selection: These processes shaped life over time.
   • No Ongoing Supernatural Intervention: Once evolution started, God doesn’t constantly intervene.
   • Human Origins: Humans emerged through evolutionary processes.
   • Spiritual Nature: Our moral sense and search for God defy purely evolutionary explanations.

In summary, theistic evolution seeks harmony between science and faith, acknowledging God’s role within the natural order.

 

[Ted-01]

TE

Theistic evolution—also known as evolutionary creationism—is an attempt to reconcile evolution with belief in God.

Here’s the essence of it:

1. God’s Role: Theistic evolution posits that God acts and creates through natural laws. While evolution unfolds through natural processes, God is seen as the primary cause, guiding the entire process.
2. Compatibility: It accepts scientific consensus on topics like the age of the Earth, the Big Bang, and evolution. Supporters believe that religious faith and scientific theories don’t necessarily contradict each other.
3. Key Premises:
   • Cosmological Model: The universe began about 13.8 billion years ago.
   • Fine-Tuned Universe: The remarkable precision of physical constants suggests design.
   • Evolution and Natural Selection: These processes shaped life over time.
   • No Ongoing Supernatural Intervention: Once evolution started, God doesn’t constantly intervene.
   • Human Origins: Humans emerged through evolutionary processes.
   • Spiritual Nature: Our moral sense and search for God defy purely evolutionary explanations.

In summary, theistic evolution seeks harmony between science and faith, acknowledging God’s role within the natural order.

Ah, right... that's what I get for not reading above the last post, lol.

I'm not a fan of TE or whatever... so sorry for interrupting your flow.

And thank you for the info.