Abortion

[Jay217]

Exactly!

Maybe you can be a father, but you can never be pregnant.

What is your point?

Do you decide what's ethical for me now?

No i believe that's finely written in scripture. Thou shall not murder, how isn't it murder?

That's one option.

There are other measures, tubes tied or sorry for the vulgarity "Keep your legs shut/ keep it in your pants"

Abortion is legal, pal, like it or not. So it isn't murder.

If you attacked me with an axe i could legally defend myself and kill you. so its fine because its legal even though your dead?

Or are you saying anything legal is good? so treating women like property and abusing women in Saudi Arabia is fine because it's legal. Its bad for a 17 yr old to smoke but completely fine for a 18yr old?

Legality doesn't make things moral

Who said it was trying to kill me? You, not me. Abortion is legal, so self defense doesn't apply.

It was a circumstance because i believe abortion apart from maternal health is immoral/unethical. It was my 'get out of jail free card' for you in this and you just seemed to swat it away

Izzy pop- its a small point but is still a strawman. We have had no contact and little way of knowing how to save these people under our own free will. however through Sex planned or un-planned we have made a choice we knew the consequence and yet we are still willing to prevent a normal thing that you created to die without any justification besides you didn't want it.

 

[IzzyPop]

Izzy pop- its a small point but is still a strawman. We have had no contact and little way of knowing how to save these people under our own free will. however through Sex planned or un-planned we have made a choice we knew the consequence and yet we are still willing to prevent a normal thing that you created to die without any justification besides you didn't want it.

I disagree that it is a strawman. The child is using another's body and resources. If the mother does not wish to share, too bad for the fetus. No different than me letting some stranger die because I want to keep both of my kidneys.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

How do you know that? You don't.

There is no reason to believe that it does. There has never been any indication that it can. The nessesary components needed for thought are not even in place at the time of most abortions.
Unless you think every abortion takes place at 25 weeks I am sure you see the point.

 

[oryx]

I mean, for me, I believe that the unborn-all the unborn of pregnant women-are offspring and the pregnant women is the biological parent of the unborn. For me that means that all parents have an obligation to that being's welfare not matter how hard or inconvenient it is to them, more than any other type of relationship whether that be a stranger to a best friend in need. What do you think? What part of this statement is incorrect or morally wrong premise? Take care.

 

[oryx]

Biological offspring in need is not a stranger in need. The first, parents have an obligation too, the second, they do not.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

I mean, for me, I believe that the unborn-all the unborn of pregnant women-are offspring and the pregnant women is the biological parent of the unborn. For me that means that all parents have an obligation to that being's welfare not matter how hard or inconvenient it is to them, more than any other type of relationship whether that be a stranger to a best friend in need. What do you think? What part of this statement is incorrect or morally wrong premise? Take care.

The part that is incorrect is the premise that the fetus are offspring with equal status to a child.

 

[oryx]

why is it incorrect? How are your biological offspring not your child? Even now, being 23, I am the biological offspring of my mother, I am her child.
All children have an equal right to an appropriate environment that aids them into the next level of maturity-in this case the environment that is best for them is gestating in their mother's womb like a mammal. Parents have an obligation to provide for their children, providing a suitable environment to aid their child towards independence is not a voluntary act of charity towards a stranger.

 

[Beechwell]

Biological offspring in need is not a stranger in need. The first, parents have an obligation too, the second, they do not.

Why do you think it makes such a difference if it concerns a direct offspring or a stranger? I mean, I can see the emotional difference, but no moral or legal one. Is it more moral to let a stranger die than your kid?

The more I read these conversations the more I get the feeling that pro-lifers actually just want to punish people for having sex. I cannot explain the arbitrary "having sex makes you responsible to raise any potential children that could result from it" claim.
I agree parents carry responsibility for any actual child they have (a person), but not for a 2 week old fetus.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Biological offspring in need is not a stranger in need. The first, parents have an obligation too, the second, they do not.

So, say your 16 year old child gets kidney failiure - should the government be allowed to take one of your kidneys regardless of whether you agree?

 

[Jay217]

I disagree that it is a strawman. The child is using another's body and resources. If the mother does not wish to share, too bad for the fetus. No different than me letting some stranger die because I want to keep both of my kidneys.

Did the mother and father put that child in its position? Did you put that stranger in that position?

One of them you you went and you had intercourse without birth control or if it was less then willing there are still products to prevent the creation of a child.

One of them was a bad twist of faith you had no control over. I take back accusation of a strawman as you did prove its relevance

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

why is it incorrect? How are your biological offspring not your child? Even now, being 23, I am the biological offspring of my mother, I am her child.
All children have an equal right to an appropriate environment that aids them into the next level of maturity-in this case the environment that is best for them is gestating in their mother's womb like a mammal. Parents have an obligation to provide for their children, providing a suitable environment to aid their child towards independence is not a voluntary act of charity towards a stranger.

If you want to stretch the meaning of child to "anything thats younger then you that you share dna with" then that is your choice. If you want to consider a sperm inside a egg as a child go right ahead.

that is your premise, I am telling you that the sperm in the egg is not the same as a 3 year old child.

There is no reason to attach any obligation to this minor clump of cells and get it to the next stage unless you choose to do so. You as the 'parent' get to make these kind of calls such as "do i want to bring a baby in this world the way things are now? Or do I want to bring a baby into this world later/at all"

Here's a fun way to think of it..
Say you force a woman to keep her fetus. You might be preventing the child she might have otherwise had a years later from ever being given life. so you are murdering a child by banning abortion.

 

[Jay217]

If you want to stretch the meaning of child to "anything thats younger then you that you share dna with" then that is your choice. If you want to consider a sperm inside a egg as a child go right ahead.

that is your premise, I am telling you that the sperm in the egg is not the same as a 3 year old child.

There is no reason to attach any obligation to this minor clump of cells and get it to the next stage unless you choose to do so. You as the 'parent' get to make these kind of calls such as "do i want to bring a baby in this world the way things are now? Or do I want to bring a baby into this world later/at all"

Here's a fun way to think of it..
Say you force a woman to keep her fetus. You might be preventing the child she might have otherwise had a years later from ever being given life. so you are murdering a child by banning abortion.

and a 3 year old child isn't the same as a 10yr old child. what's your point?

I'd rather not interfere especially by ending one's life for little reason

God breathe life into this 'clump of cells' when the sperm and egg meet. He doesn't breathe life into something that hasn't been conceived yet. That is an interesting opinion, however i stick to the fact, you already have a living being so why terminate it for what 'can be' and just accept what is.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

and a 3 year old child isn't the same as a 10yr old child. what's your point?

I'd rather not interfere especially by ending one's life for little reason

God breathe life into this 'clump of cells' when the sperm and egg meet. He doesn't breathe life into something that hasn't been conceived yet. That is an interesting opinion, however i stick to the fact, you already have a living being so why terminate it for what 'can be' and just accept what is.

I could be way off here but did god not say "Before you where in the womb i knew thee" ?
That certainly seems to imply that conceiving is not the first part as far as god is concerned.

A reason to terminate it in favor of the life that will be later is perhaps that the life later will lead a better one. With more love, care and time. Should it not be the parents job to provide the best life possible for their child?

 

[IzzyPop]

Biological offspring in need is not a stranger in need. The first, parents have an obligation too, the second, they do not.

Where do we draw the line? Is there an obligation to a cousin in need? What about an estranged aunt?

Should I be forced to give my child my kidney should they need it?

 

[IzzyPop]

Did the mother and father put that child in its position? Did you put that stranger in that position?

One of them you you went and you had intercourse without birth control or if it was less then willing there are still products to prevent the creation of a child.

One of them was a bad twist of faith you had no control over. I take back accusation of a strawman as you did prove its relevance

Now we are getting somewhere. So only abortions that occur because the parents' don't use birth control are wrong?

 

[A2SG]

I mean, for me, I believe that the unborn-all the unborn of pregnant women-are offspring and the pregnant women is the biological parent of the unborn.

Factually true.

For me that means that all parents have an obligation to that being's welfare not matter how hard or inconvenient it is to them, more than any other type of relationship whether that be a stranger to a best friend in need.

So you oppose adoption, then?

What do you think?

I think you're entitled to your opinion, and when you become a parent, intentionally or otherwise, you are free to live up to the obligations you feel are required of you.

What part of this statement is incorrect or morally wrong premise? Take care.

None of it, since it's entirely your own opinion.

However, being your own opinion, that does not mean anyone else, who may feel differently, is required to agree with it, or to abide by it.

-- A2SG, just as you have your opinions, others have their own.....

 

[A2SG]

I could be way off here but did god not say "Before you where in the womb i knew thee" ?

Sure. Now, answer this: who was he talking to?

That certainly seems to imply that conceiving is not the first part as far as god is concerned.

Depends. Did god ever say that statement applies to every fertilized egg? Because, let's not forget, roughly half of all pregnancies do not carry to term.

A reason to terminate it in favor of the life that will be later is perhaps that the life later will lead a better one. With more love, care and time. Should it not be the parents job to provide the best life possible for their child?

I suppose that would depend on whether or not you believe the afterlife is a better life than this one, as most christians do.

-- A2SG, not sure how that would compare to a life of poverty and neglect, a fate many unwanted children are born into...

 

[RobinRobyn]

Maybe you can be a father, but you can never be pregnant.

What is your point?

That you can never be pregnant, so you can never decide to have an abortion or not. So why do you think you can make this decision for others?

Do you decide what's ethical for me now?

No i believe that's finely written in scripture. Thou shall not murder, how isn't it murder?

It isn't illegal.

That's one option.

There are other measures, tubes tied or sorry for the vulgarity "Keep your legs shut/ keep it in your pants"

And those are others. If you don't mind, I'll pick the one I want to pick, not the one you tell me to.

Abortion is legal, pal, like it or not. So it isn't murder.

If you attacked me with an axe i could legally defend myself and kill you. so its fine because its legal even though your dead?

If you say so.

Or are you saying anything legal is good?

I'm not.

so treating women like property and abusing women in Saudi Arabia is fine because it's legal. Its bad for a 17 yr old to smoke but completely fine for a 18yr old?

Legality doesn't make things moral

What does make something moral? Your stamp of approval? Can anyone else have a different opinion than yours?

Who said it was trying to kill me? You, not me. Abortion is legal, so self defense doesn't apply.

It was a circumstance because i believe abortion apart from maternal health is immoral/unethical. It was my 'get out of jail free card' for you in this and you just seemed to swat it away

Because it doesn't apply. Abortion isn't illegal, so no one needs a get out of jail free card.

You seem to think you decide what is moral and what isn't. Here's a shocker for you, you don't. Women make that decision for themselves every day, without you there to tell them what to do and how to think.

 

[Jay217]

Now we are getting somewhere. So only abortions that occur because the parents' don't use birth control are wrong?

No Abortions that occur as a use of birth control are wrong.

It's destroying life and it can seriously complicate a woman's health for future birth-giving.

I could be way off here but did god not say "Before you where in the womb i knew thee" ?
That certainly seems to imply that conceiving is not the first part as far as god is concerned.

A reason to terminate it in favor of the life that will be later is perhaps that the life later will lead a better one. With more love, care and time. Should it not be the parents job to provide the best life possible for their child?

So God knew the fetus and the fetus to be and yet we as people know that the fetus-to-be is the better one...??? i'm kind of confused.

It's alive it's growing I don't see why we should have to terminate without maternal health reasons. If the costs of up-keeping the child is too great you can put it up for adoption.

 

[Jay217]

That you can never be pregnant, so you can never decide to have an abortion or not. So why do you think you can make this decision for others?

Possibly because i'm human and i care about giving others the Right To Live. what puts you in the decision making of other woman's lives? what makes u more better suited at judging than myself?

It isn't illegal.

Your point is?

And those are others. If you don't mind, I'll pick the one I want to pick, not the one you tell me to.

which is fine as long as you don't intentionally kill a person.

If you say so.



I'm not.

That is a self-defense case so quite possibly. and If your remark is "IT'S LEGAL" than please explain otherwise.

What does make something moral? Your stamp of approval? Can anyone else have a different opinion than yours?

Yes you can and anyone else can. I also believe that the human inside of the mother should have an opinion...

Because it doesn't apply. Abortion isn't illegal, so no one needs a get out of jail free card.

It's called a figure of speech

You seem to think you decide what is moral and what isn't. Here's a shocker for you, you don't. Women make that decision for themselves every day, without you there to tell them what to do and how to think.

So women are always right or always wrong about terms to their body .
SO because i see a women being anorexic i have no clue and can't help them make a better life decision because since they're the opposite sex i got no idea?

I don't decide what is moral... i kinda thought alot of it was common sense...

I think you could learn a valuable lesson - Everyone has opinions some different some the same but all should be able to be heard. We have conflicting viewpoints but we should still hear eachother out and actrually make a strong debate. and also plays in my own views as i think we should give everyone an opinion and that includes the viewpoints of the ones who you think due to it being legal is fine to get rid of.