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A2SG

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Hiya. Here is my long answer, long time coming.

My response is going to be much shorter, I'm afraid.

As I see it, your basic premise is, simply, that the law is wrong because abortion is immoral.

That's your opinion, and you're more than entitled to it. When you're pregnant, US law will not stand in the way of you not having an abortion. No one can interfere with your choice.

Similarly, some other woman who feels differently than you do is also entitled to her opinion, and as such, can make her own choice regarding her own pregnancy. She can't interfere with your choice, and you can't interfere with hers.

Really, it's as simple as that.

If you want to know the legal reasons behind this, I suggest you read Roe v Wade yourself. I can try to explain it as best I can, but I'm only a layman...you'd be better off going right to the source.

-- A2SG, if you need clarification of any other specific points raised in your posts, feel free to bring them up individually....
 
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oryx

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Hiya. Me again. I tried reading the Roe v Wade and other documents but they were so complicated and verbose that I couldn't properly understand them. Will you be able to condense them into laymen's terms or point me to a link thats done that?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'bringing up individually.' but if you could go through the paragraphs that I wrote before and point out how I'm thinking illogically and write a better interpretation of the law and of biology of pregnancy so that I can switch to a more accurate point of view, I would appreciate it.
 
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Beechwell

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Hiya. Me again. I tried reading the Roe v Wade and other documents but they were so complicated and verbose that I couldn't properly understand them. Will you be able to condense them into laymen's terms or point me to a link thats done that?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'bringing up individually.' but if you could go through the paragraphs that I wrote before and point out how I'm thinking illogically and write a better interpretation of the law and of biology of pregnancy so that I can switch to a more accurate point of view, I would appreciate it.
Hi. :)
I just read through your long post, and I think the underlying problem in your debate is that you ascribe the full status of a human being to a single zygote, while A2SG (I assume) doesn't.
There is nothing illogical about your reasoning, provided one agrees with your initial assumption that status as a human being begins with conception. If one doesn't, your whole argument becomes irrelevant.

The problem with your assumption is imo that it blindly transfers a biological concept into a moral one. But morality isn't a biological matter, but a social one. So I think one has to start with a social definition of human being, instead of a biological one*.
Biology is not pivotal for what we commonly call a human being, or a person. Many declarations of human rights are older than our knowledge of crucial biological concepts like DNA. So we don't call someone human because he has similar DNA as we do, but because we share common human characteristics (that derive from our common genetic information).

While I can't name a person that is (biologically) non human (although certain apes and dolphins may qualify), our imagination can easily create them: Yoda and C3PO, Data and Worf - though not human, would all be considered persons. And if this imagination ever becomes reality (unlikely, but I would say not entirely impossible), then defining human rights by biology becomes very problematic.


*Besides, it is not obvious to me at all why a zygote should have more human rights than any other human cell. The only real difference is that it is totipotent, but why does that suddenly make it a human being?
 
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A2SG

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Hiya. Me again. I tried reading the Roe v Wade and other documents but they were so complicated and verbose that I couldn't properly understand them. Will you be able to condense them into laymen's terms or point me to a link thats done that?

Put simply, no US state can ban abortions.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'bringing up individually.' but if you could go through the paragraphs that I wrote before and point out how I'm thinking illogically and write a better interpretation of the law and of biology of pregnancy so that I can switch to a more accurate point of view, I would appreciate it.

Your point of view is your own, I won't even try to change it. You're more than free to have any opinion of abortion that you wish.

-- A2SG, besides, being British, Roe v Wade doesn't apply to you anyway....
 
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A2SG

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While I can't name a person that is (biologically) non human....

Corporations are legally regarded as persons. See Citizens United v FEC.

-- A2SG, otherwise, your analysis is spot on.....
 
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Beechwell

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Corporations are legally regarded as persons. See Citizens United v FEC.
Yeah, but that is hardly of relevance when discussing human rights.

-- A2SG, otherwise, your analysis is spot on.....
I thank you :)
 
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A2SG

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Yeah, but that is hardly of relevance when discussing human rights.

True enough, but it does go to illustrate the flaw in the argument that the law should give embryos legal rights just because they are biologically human.

-- A2SG, the law and biology are different subjects, after all....
 
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Jay217

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Words of Wisdom I was told and hold them true of what i believe behind abortion.

"The Cost of one human abortion is one human being"

The only way you can spin that is maternal health issues which is my only good reasoning behind having abortion.
 
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Beechwell

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Words of Wisdom I was told and hold them true of what i believe behind abortion.

"The Cost of one human abortion is one human being"

The only way you can spin that is maternal health issues which is my only good reasoning behind having abortion.
Maybe (although that depends on how general your definition of human being is). But it certainly does not cost a human mind (except possibly late term abortion), which I find to be the major point here.
 
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RobinRobyn

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Words of Wisdom I was told and hold them true of what i believe behind abortion.

"The Cost of one human abortion is one human being"

The only way you can spin that is maternal health issues which is my only good reasoning behind having abortion.

So don't have one then. You can decide what to do for you, and the rest of us women can decide what to do for ourselves. Deal?
 
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Jay217

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So don't have one then. You can decide what to do for you, and the rest of us women can decide what to do for ourselves. Deal?

And the thing inside of you that is 100% guaranteed to form a human in time gets to decide for itself ok?

beechwell said:
Maybe (although that depends on how general your definition of human being is). But it certainly does not cost a human mind (except possibly late term abortion), which I find to be the major point here.

So your saying that in the early stages the embryo/fetus/whatever may *NOT* become a human? As far as i know human babies come from those embryos and fetuses you refuse to call human in time will indeed become babies.
 
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RobinRobyn

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And the thing inside of you that is 100% guaranteed to form a human in time gets to decide for itself ok?
It can't decide anything yet. And it's not 100% guaranteed to be born, miscarriages and stillbirths happen all the time.
 
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A2SG

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If someone was chasing you with an axe you might change your mind.

How could anyone chase you? Don't forget, you're INSIDE that person!

Besides, getting back to reality for just a second here...embryos have no mind to change. Not yet.

-- A2SG, forgive the lapse into reality, please return to the absurdist anti-abortion arguments....so, you're chasing an embryo with an axe, and...?
 
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