A woman and her husband's difficult decision

[SPF]

It does not. It only makes hyporcrites out of people who say it makes no difference to them and they would still grab the screaming girl every time.

Except you’re making a fallacious argument, a categorical mistake.

The morality of abortion stands or falls upon how we understand the nature of the growing human being inside the womb, not upon a made up false dilemma that is also a false analogy. You have to employ so much fallacious reasoning to reach your conclusion that it can be dismissed outright.

The Truth is quite simple. If the unborn child is a human being created in the image of God, then they have inherent moral worth and value. Absolutely no amount of consistent or hypocritical human behavior has any bearing upon this Truth. Your ad hominem attack against people asserting that their hypocrisy has the capacity to somehow determine the morality of abortion is as absurd as your posts.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

The morality of abortion stands or falls upon how we understand the nature of the growing human being inside the womb, not upon a made up false dilemma that is also a false analogy.

This was not about morality of abortion but you made a claim that

Some people fallaciously discriminate against humans based upon the level of development, dependency, or location of residence.

implying that some people do not discriminate human being based on their level of development which is bogus.

Nobody will save two fertilized eggs from fire over screaming little girl because everyone perceives that the screaming little girl is human while the fertilized eggs are less so (based upon their level of development).

Same reason why people are just fine living in a state having over 800 000 abortions each year but they would not be ok living in a state shooting 800 000 little girls against the wall a year.

It is not the same and it is futile and incorrect trying to that assert that some people treat fertilized eggs with same consideration they would give a grown child.

It is not the same thing in practice whatever you might think of it from moral point of view and people act in the way that confirms this every turn.

 

[SPF]

This was not about morality of abortion but you made a claim that



implying that some people do not discriminate human being based on their level of development which is bogus.

Nobody will save two fertilized eggs from fire over screaming little girl because everyone perceives that the screaming little girl is human while the fertilized eggs are less so (based upon their level of development).

Same reason why people are just fine living in a state having over 800 000 abortions each year but they would not be ok living in a state shooting 800 000 little girls against the wall a year.

It is not the same and it is futile and incorrect trying to that assert that some people treat fertilized eggs with same consideration they would give a grown child.

It is not the same thing in practice whatever you might think of it from moral point of view and people act in the way that confirms this every turn.

Again, how human beings behave, either consistently or hypocritically has no bearing upon the morality of an action, any action. All you’re doing is showing how humans are fallen people who sin and need better accountability. Congratulations.

But with regards to the morality of abortion, it is determined by how we understand the nature of the value of the unborn. No amount of inconsistent behavior by you or me has any impact upon this truth.

Lying is wrong regardless of whether or not I do it. Murder is wrong regardless of whether or not someone does it. All you’re doing is revealing the sad truth that sin is real and people aren’t consistent. Congratulations.

But abortion is still immoral.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

But with regards to the morality of abortion, it is determined by how we understand the nature of the value of the unborn.

You probably understand that there is no all encompassing "we" in moral questions. Some people consider it immoral and some do not. Like every other moral issue. People have different concepts what is moral and what is not.

Your definitions of morality in no way or form bind other people.

 

[SPF]

You probably understand that there is no all encompassing "we" in moral questions. Some people consider it immoral and some do not. Like every other moral issue. People have different concepts what is moral and what is not.

Your definitions of morality in no way or form bind other people.

Thankfully as Christians, we understand and know that there is such a thing as objective moral truths.

We know that one of the essential attributes of God is that His character is immutable, and that what is right and wrong is not subjective but comes from His perfect character.

So we know, for example, that murder is always immoral. We know that drunkenness is always wrong. We know that sexual immorality is always wrong.

Personal concepts and beliefs on the morality of rape, and murder, and drunkenness have no bearing upon the whether or not in God’s eyes these actions are right and wrong.

Thus, we can say things like this:

1. All human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. (Objective Biblical moral principle)

2. All human beings come into existence at fertilization. (Basic scientific fact)

From just those two premises, it’s not hard to arrive at the logical conclusion that the 98.5% of abortions which are performed for convenience sake are immoral.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

We know that one of the essential attributes of God is that His character is immutable, and that what is right and wrong is not subjective but comes from His perfect character.

So we know, for example, that murder is always immoral. We know that drunkenness is always wrong. We know that sexual immorality is always wrong.

It is not quite so easy even with things like abortion.

Christianity and abortion - Wikipedia

 

[grasping the after wind]

Here's a woman talking about her and her husband's difficult decision to have an abortion:

The hardest decision of my life: to end a pregnancy because I had no paid leave
"I lived with my husband-to-be in a one room apartment in rural Vermont... At the time, my husband was earning less than a living wage at a grocery store. His job was stable, but ... he did not have paid family leave...After scrutinizing our finances, my husband and I decided that our situation did not embody the climate of confidence we agreed was necessary for us to be parents. And so we made the hardest decision of my life: to end the pregnancy...

Lawmakers in the state of Vermont, where I live, have been working to pass paid family leave legislation since a previous bill was vetoed by the Republican governor, Phil Scott, in 2018. Last week, he vetoed the bill’s latest iteration...

Our inability to afford the pregnancy was not only due to an absence of paid family leave, it also hinged on the absence of many other foundational support systems currently lacking for most Americans, including universal childcare and healthcare and a living minimum wage."

Thoughts?

Doesn't seem like a difficult decision to me. Two possibilities are put forward. 1) kill my offspring. 2) don't . I would pick 2 without any hesitation.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Doesn't seem like a difficult decision to me.

I have noticed these decisions are never difficult for the people who do not have to make them.

 

[SPF]

It is not quite so easy even with things like abortion.

Christianity and abortion - Wikipedia

Do you have a point you would like to make? I’m still not sure what your position is. So far all I’ve seen you do is use some false analogies, fallacious reasoning, and then claim that morality is subjective.... to what end are you even posting?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Do you have a point you would like to make? I’m still not sure what your position is. So far all I’ve seen you do is use some false analogies, fallacious reasoning, and then claim that morality is subjective.... to what end are you even posting?

I think abortion is a terrible decision for any woman to make. I can also understand why some women feel they are compelled to do it nor do I think it is a decision anyone takes lightly.

However saying your beliefs are absolute morality is just bunk. We are dealing with interpretations and personal views. Few people say that God is directly speaking to them.

Things like murder. If you shoot a burglar just in case that was about to take your TV and probably would have left you alone did you commit murder ? or self defence ?

Sexual immorality ....you really think that you can say what is sexually immoral and that there really is one moral truth to that. Ridicilous.

 

[SPF]

I think abortion is a terrible decision for any woman to make. I can also understand why some women feel they are compelled to do it nor do I think it is a decision anyone takes lightly.

I completely agree.

However saying your beliefs are absolute morality is just bunk. We are dealing with interpretations and personal views.

What I’m saying is that morality is not subjective because we live in a universe designed by, held up by, and guided by an perfectly good and immutable God. Do you disagree? Morality is not subjective. Let’s take some obvious examples. Rape. Adultery. These actions, are immoral, and we can declare that they are. Why? Because man does not determine morality. We can point to Scripture and trust and rely on what it says because what it says comes from a perfectly good and immutable God.

Few people say that God is directly speaking to them.

More people probably should. I don’t know what your relationship with God looks like, but for me, I spend time every day reading Scripture. I spend time every day praying. I am involved in my church. I meet with men weekly.

While I am super busy raising a family and working a career, I still recognize that my ultimate purpose in life is to glorify God and make Him known. I believe Scripture that God is a relational being and actually wants a real and personal relationship with me. Have I heard God audibly speak to me? No. But do I experience His prompting and guiding through the Spirit regularly? Yes, and I hope you do too.

Things like murder. If you shoot a burglar just in case that was about to take your TV and probably would have left you alone did you commit murder ? or self defence ?

Thats a good question, and we would need to look at the specific situation. But because morality is not subjective, there IS a right answer.

Sexual immorality ....you really think that you can say what is sexually immoral and that there really is one moral truth to that. Ridicilous.

I think we can say a lot about sexual immorality based upon Scripture, don’t you? Do you not think that God has said a lot about sexual morality in Scripture?

I don’t deny that morality can be a tough discussion. But I don’t think people today really do a good job of actually looking to Scripture and relying on it, and actually studying it. When you do, the murkiness that you feel exists with regards to right and wrong moral actions begins to dissipate.

We don’t serve an inconsistent and confused God. God is perfect, perfectly good, perfectly just, and His character doesn’t change. We can rely on and trust in what Scripture tells us.

That’s why I say when discussing abortion that as Christians, I believe we should be able to be more unified on specifically the 98.5% of abortions which are committed for non-medical emergencies, or for convenience sake.

Scripture is clear that all human beings are created in His Image and possess inherent moral worth and value. We should start with that.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

I think we can say a lot about sexual immorality based upon Scripture, don’t you? Do you not think that God has said a lot about sexual morality in Scripture?

Again it comes to perceptions. Say that the Bible forbids sex outside of marriage - immoral. Think Islam has about similiar morals, but then they have some sanctioned bobblygoob about getting married for few days so the guy can get his kicks then "divorcing" his "wife". In spirit this is nothing short of prostitution but hey they got married so some Imams are perfectly happy.

Even the marriage in nice traditional Christian societies. How many of those are just compelled unions due to economic pressures, how many are just basically indentured service ? , how about a golddigger catching a millionaire in dubious health ?

Where do you draw the line ? Who is right ? If you go with the definition that there is always a one absolutely moral choice that God knows ...well that does not really help anyone does it ?

We do not have faculties of God to decide what is His idea of perfect morality and it is height of hubris to presume we do.

Only thing we can do is our best.