A Successful Bible Study is Finished: Revelation

[pdudgeon]

It's a good idea to read the introduction to the Book of Revelation, from
a Catholic Bible.

Revelation, THE BOOK OF REVELATION | USCCB


There is debate on whether John the Apostle wrote the Book of Revelation,
or another man named John.

From the Introduction:
The author of the book calls himself John (Rev 1:1, 4, 9; 22:8), who because of his Christian faith has been exiled to the rocky island of Patmos, a Roman penal colony. Although he never claims to be John the apostle, whose name is attached to the fourth gospel, he was so identified by several of the early church Fathers, including Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Hippolytus. This identification, however, was denied by other Fathers, including Denis of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, and John Chrysostom.

For me, the authorship has never been in question. I always believed that it was John, the disciple closest to Jesus' heart, and who wrote what he was told by Jesus thru several visions, that happened while John was held prisoner on Patmos.
Jesus knew that after His crucifiction, His disciples would be leaderless, confused, and afraid about what to do next. So He took care to prepare and provide help, comfort, knowledge, and guidance for them in the early years of the Church.
But that was not all. Jesus also knew that the faith of each disciple would be tested. And it was.
I think that today we could learn many things from what the disciples endured in those times, and that learning would benefit all of us, as we carry on.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

For me, the authorship has never been in question. I always believed that it was John, the disciple closest to Jesus' heart, and who wrote what he was told by Jesus thru several visions, that happened while John was held prisoner on Patmos.
Jesus knew that after His crucifiction, His disciples would be leaderless, confused, and afraid about what to do next. So He took care to prepare and provide help, comfort, knowledge, and guidance for them in the early years of the Church.
But that was not all. Jesus also knew that the faith of each disciple would be tested. And it was.
I think that today we could learn many things from what the disciples endured in those times, and that learning would benefit all of us, as we carry on.

Well, read the introduction to the Book of Revelation and you may question John's
authorship. As it is, they know he didn't literally write the Gospel of John, but it's what
he taught the disciples who did write it. In fact, there is more than one author of that
gospel.

 

[Michie]

Most of what is writen in the book of revelation has already been fulfilled. It is made up mainly from prophesies in the book of Daniel. It is easy to misinterprete scripture so you should refer to Church teaching for a balanced perspective

That’s my understanding as well but it’s multifaceted. There are many viewpoints but I’m not expecting the Church to start preaching the rapture, etc. anytime soon. There have been talks and references in homilies to Revelation but I do not see what the Church is supposedly missing when it comes to that book and what it is we should be hearing in homilies when it comes to that book. I certainly do not think the Church is hiding anything or withholding anything when it comes to Revelation.

 

[Lukaris]

One chapter in Revelation I am confident in understanding is that Revelation 12 is about the Theotokos, the Mother of God.

 

[fide]

.....
.....
113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

It's why Sola Scriptura(Scripture Alone) was never part of Catholic Church teaching. Scripture must be interpreted by the Holy Spirit, traditions and history of the Catholic Church.

Yes, and especially since Vat II, the Church has renewed her commitment to transmit all of divine revelation to the faithful:

CCC 102 -- Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time. ​

103 -- For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.
104 -- In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”. “In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them.”
II. Inspiration and Truth of Sacred Scripture
105 -- God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”
“For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.”
106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. “To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.”
107 The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”​

 

[fide]

Most of what is writen in the book of revelation has already been fulfilled. It is made up mainly from prophesies in the book of Daniel. It is easy to misinterprete scripture so you should refer to Church teaching for a balanced perspective

I'm sorry, but that conclusion is based on poor exegesis. The word "fulfilled" is used by some commentators very naïvely - that is, there are partial examples throughout salvation history that illustrate - to one degree or another but not in a complete way - God's will for His own, and for those who deny Him.

If you want to believe as you have written, God does allow that for now, but I suggest to you that you listen, for the good of your own very personal soul, for the guidance of the Holy Spirit and listen to God's Word for yourself. God will not deceive an honest seeker of His Truth! Listen! I am not suggesting protestantism! I am insisting anyone to stay within the bounds of Holy Catholic Faith, while trusting the promises of Jesus:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more;
concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (John 16:7-14)​

The Church as Church has defined as solemn revealed Truth, very little about the prophesies for the future given in Scripture. There are many Catholic academics - professionals - not constituting the Magisterium by a long shot, but constituting academia having many opinions, speculations, and so on, whose opinions are more based on requirements for academic praise among their peers than for the holy praise of God.

What I have just written is an example of the continuing struggle of God's Truth against the denials of men, as pointed out by Jesus to His critics then, which is as true then as now, to His critics now:

Jn 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
Jn 5:44 How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?​

Seeking peer approval, above the professional risks of peer disapproval, but above even Truth, leads to the dumbing down and falling within many professions. Faithful, beware.

 

[fide]

Well, read the introduction to the Book of Revelation and you may question John's
authorship. As it is, they know he didn't literally write the Gospel of John, but it's what
he taught the disciples who did write it. In fact, there is more than one author of that
gospel.

Jim, with respect, I truly and sincerely hope that you do not take time away from listening to Scripture itself, which is "God's Word" by Catholic Teaching and Faith, to leave Him to go listen to human opinions about God's Word. Biblical scholarship is far less important than Biblical devotion. Words of man will not save; words of God can, if we listen so as to hear, and hear so as to believe, and believe so as to live in Him.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim, with respect, I truly and sincerely hope that you do not take time away from listening to Scripture itself, which is "God's Word" by Catholic Teaching and Faith, to leave Him to go listen to human opinions about God's Word. Biblical scholarship is far less important than Biblical devotion. Words of man will not save; words of God can, if we listen so as to hear, and hear so as to believe, and believe so as to live in Him.

I pray the Liturgy of the Hours every morning and evening. I do the Office of the Readings,
and am well aware of how to pray with Scripture.

Today, the letter is from St Ignatius of Antioch, who along with St Polycarp, audited
the Gospel of St John. They were disciples of St John, and therefore were knew
very well what he taught. It's good to know the history of the Gospels, as well
as the inspiration we receive in reading it. However, don't think you have all
the answers that the Church father's don't have and to ignore correct interpretation, is dangerous spiritually as well as knowledge wise.

 

[WarriorAngel]

IMHO understanding the book will come after it is fulfilled.
By the time anyone fully grasps it, it will be the end?

Symbolism is so people can see the signs and stay faithful. As for fulfillment we live each day in faith and grace and hope.

 

[Joined2krist]

@fide, i read, studied and came to the conclusion myself after intensely studying the book of Daniel and Revelation. I was pleasantly surprised that the Church also concluded the same. The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict himself.

 

[fide]

I pray the Liturgy of the Hours every morning and evening. I do the Office of the Readings,
and am well aware of how to pray with Scripture.

Today, the letter is from St Ignatius of Antioch, who along with St Polycarp, audited
the Gospel of St John. They were disciples of St John, and therefore were knew
very well what he taught. It's good to know the history of the Gospels, as well
as the inspiration we receive in reading it. However, don't think you have all
the answers that the Church father's don't have and to ignore correct interpretation, is dangerous spiritually as well as knowledge wise.

I agree completely. So often, it seems, conversations on forums become adversarial when they really don't need to. If I have offended you, I am sorry.

 

[fide]

@fide, i read, studied and came to the conclusion myself after intensely studying the book of Daniel and Revelation. I was pleasantly surprised that the Church also concluded the same. The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict himself.

When you say "the Church also concluded the same," could you be specific? What exactly did "the Church" "conclude", and where did you find that the Church did? (which Magisterial document) I'd like to see it.

 

[fide]

One chapter in Revelation I am confident in understanding is that Revelation 12 is about the Theotokos, the Mother of God.

One would think that would be obvious, but I'm sure someone would dispute it. Also, these days, it seems, any recognition of Mary with such a high and holy name - Theotokos, the Mother of God - makes some uncomfortable. Even in the Catholic Church.

 

[fide]

IMHO understanding the book will come after it is fulfilled.
By the time anyone fully grasps it, it will be the end?

Symbolism is so people can see the signs and stay faithful. As for fulfillment we live each day in faith and grace and hope.

The Book is filled with mysteries, that is a fact. I am certain that this is not by accident, but is by divine intention: God wants to keep the mysteries obscure, until it is time for the faithful to understand - maybe part and piece at a time - in order to bring good to them. As He had written:

Rom 8:28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.​

In other words, when the faithful need to understand, the faithful will be given understanding.

I am beginning to believe, that the time for understanding has begun. Last month, 50 years ago, Pope St. Paul VI uttered this ominous statement:

“… We would say that, through some mysterious crack—no, it’s not mysterious; through some crack, the smoke of Satan has entered the Church of God. There is doubt, uncertainty, problems, unrest, dissatisfaction, confrontation."​

This reference - the smoke of satan himself, in the Church! "smelled" by the Pope himself! - is troubling indeed, in the light of the passage in Revelation:

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key of the shaft of the bottomless pit;
Rev 9:2 he opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.
Rev 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth;​

The end may be much closer than many would like to consider.

 

[fide]

Most of what is writen in the book of revelation has already been fulfilled. It is made up mainly from prophesies in the book of Daniel. It is easy to misinterprete scripture so you should refer to Church teaching for a balanced perspective

Add this post to post on Smoke of satan, post #54)
A recent and telling example of "prophesies 'fulfilled'" - but not completely, is in the news today, on the forum today:

Rev 2:20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and beguiling my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.
Rev 2:21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her immorality.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will throw her on a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her doings;​

Who is this Jezebel? Is this prophesy "fulfilled yet?
Jezebel may well be the German Church.

Official: German ‘Synodal Way’ Is a ‘Conscious Statement Against Catechism’

In an opinion piece on ‘LGBT Catholic resource’ website, German layman says controversial process aims to change the Church’s teaching on homosexuality.​

Leading Laywoman and Co-President of German ‘Synodal Way’ Calls for ‘Nationwide Provision of Abortion’

etc.etc.etc.

 

[Joined2krist]

Duplicate post

 

[Joined2krist]

Permission to post this:

How to interpret the Book of Revelation
When I use the term “Church” with a capital “C” I am referring to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, founded by the Apostles or their successors, not to protestant groups which only began in the 1500’s or later.

It is difficult to interpret the Book of Revelation, especially if one is unfamiliar with the images and symbols of the apocalyptic writings of the Bible, that is the Old Testament, and of the Judeo-Christian Tradition. There exists, however, a traditional approach to the interpretation of the book within the Church which offers insight into its meaning for the faithful. It is good to remember that, unlike our protestant friends believe, there is no private (each person decides what the texts mean) interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is the book of the Church, the Church existed before the Bible and the Church compiled the books that are considered divinely inspired.

The wrong method of interpreting the Book of Revelation is to give some sort of exclusive meaning to its many visions, equating them with specific, concrete historical events and persons, and to fail to understand the symbolical significance of the many images which are used by the author following biblical and traditional sources.

Many of the events and words found in the Book of Revelation are found in books of the Old Testament. In the New Testament these events and words are completed and fulfilled in Christ. In the Old Testament the people saw only the shadows of what was to come. In Christ in the New Testament we see things with clear, bright vision in the fullness of the reality. For example, in the Old Testament a lamb was sacrificed at Passover; in the New Testament the fullness of the reality is revealed and Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us. (1 Cor 5-7)

First of all, the letters to the seven churches have both a historical and a universal meaning. The messages are clear and remain relevant to situations which have always existed in the Church and which exist today. For example, many older churches (dioceses or even parishes) in all ages of history can he identified with the Church of Ephesus. Those under persecution can be compared with the Church in Smyrna. And not a few—perhaps some in America right now—can be judged with the Church in Laodicea. The seven letters remain forever as “typical” of churches that will exist until Christ’s kingdom comes.

The visions and prophecies of the main body of the book of Revelation present great difficulties, but mostly to those interpreters who would attempt to apply them to one or another historical event or person. If the general vision and prophecy of the book is seen as revealing the correlation between events “in heaven” and events “on earth,” between God and man, between the powers of goodness and the powers of evil, then, though many difficulties obviously remain, some will also immediately disappear.

In the book of Revelation, one comes to understand that the Kingdom of God is always over all and before all. One sees as well that the battle between the righteous and those who chose evil is perpetually being waged. There are always the faithful who belong to the Lamb, being crowned and robed by Him for their victories. There are always the “beasts” and the “dragons” which need to be defeated. The “great harlot” and the “great Babylon” are forever to be destroyed. The “heavenly Jerusalem” is perpetually coming, and one day it will come in its fullness and the final victory will be complete.

One notices as well that there is a universality and finality about the symbols and images of the book of Revelation, a meaning to be applied to them which has already been revealed in the scriptures of the Old Testament. Thus, for example, the image of Babylon stands for every society which fights against God, every body of persons united in wickedness and fleshliness. The image of harlotry universally applies as well to all who are corrupted by their passions and lusts, unfaithful to God Who has made them and loves them. The symbolic numerology also remains constant, with the number 666 (Rev. 13:18), for example, symbolizing total depravity, unlike 7 which is the symbol of fullness; and the number 144,000 (Rev. 14.3) being the symbol of total completion and the full number of the saved, the result of the multiplication of 12 times 12—the number of the tribes of Israel and the apostles of Christ. Thus, through the images of the Book of Revelation, we can see the depth into universal spiritual realities is disclosed which is greater than any specific earthly reality. The insight into the meaning of the book depends on the inspiration of God through the Church and the purity of heart of those who have eyes to see and ears to hear and minds willing and able to understand.

 

[fide]

Do you know anything about the history of the book of Revelation? If you do, can you explain this verse 'This book is the record of the events that Jesus Christ revealed. God gave him this revelation in order to show his servants what MUST HAPPEN VERY SOON... (Rev. 1:1)

If these events were to happen urgently, how can you interprete it as being futuristic, did Christ make a mistake or was it John's mistake?

Who was John writing to? the Church in those times or you and I now? very clearly, by the urgency of the text that he was writing to the former.

Why did he write this? to predict what would happen thousands of years later or to give hope in a severely desperate situation which the Church found itself in? the later seems to be more realistic. 'Happy is the one who reads this book, and happy are those who listen to the words of this prophetic message and obey what is written in this book! For THE TIME IS NEAR WHEN THESE THINGS WILL HAPPEN (Rev 1:3). (Note the urgency in this verse?)

What timing was the book written? this apocalypse book was writen and compiled between AD 68 and AD 95. Some parts were composed shortly after Nero's death, the most common opinion is that most of it was written in the reign of the Domitian, about AD 95. Whatever its precise date we cannot understand The Revelation without taking into account the historical conditions that gave birth to it. It is a tract of the times, like the apocalypses (particularly Daniel) that preceded it and on which it draws.

1) The Gospel has been urgent from its first proclamation, and is urgent this minute:

Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."​

"At Hand" means very near, also. The point is, the time to repent and turn to God is always NOW, not "First, sin and blaspheme and insult God for most of your life; then when you're too old to enjoy life, please please please consider getting out of the slime of sin and act like a human being should."

2) The Lord revealed to John things both present and to come; he was to write down both:

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Rev 1:19 Now write what you see, what is and what is to take place hereafter.​

The conditions of the 7 churches were present, and would continue to depict churches in the future until this day, now.

3) No one know the day or the hour that God will take his soul in death. But as far as history, and human clock-time are concerned:

2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
​

Please do not try to "explain-away" divine revelation, judging the words and ways of God with a frail human mind. Scripture can rightly be heard and understood perfectly only - only - in and with and through the Holy Spirit. Apart from Him, we -any of us - are as babies listening to Einstein about physics. (Poor analogy, I know, but all analogies "limp". You get my point, though, I hope.). This passage may make that point:

Isa 55:6 "Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near;
Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

 

[fide]

... The insight into the meaning of the book depends on the inspiration of God through the Church and the purity of heart of those who have eyes to see and ears to hear and minds willing and able to understand.

Amen to that.

 

[pdudgeon]

I pray the Liturgy of the Hours every morning and evening. I do the Office of the Readings,
and am well aware of how to pray with Scripture.

Today, the letter is from St Ignatius of Antioch, who along with St Polycarp, audited
the Gospel of St John. They were disciples of St John, and therefore were knew
very well what he taught. It's good to know the history of the Gospels, as well
as the inspiration we receive in reading it. However, don't think you have all
the answers that the Church father's don't have and to ignore correct interpretation, is dangerous spiritually as well as knowledge wise.

It's not really as difficult as you make it out to be.
It's actually very easy to read and understand the Gospel.
There's only four steps that are necessary:
1. Open your heart.
2. read God's Word.
3. Ask the Holy Spirit for interpretation or for background information.
4. Is what you have read been confirmed by God's illumination.
5. Submit yourself to Him, and ask "What is necessary for me to make this instruction a part of my life?"