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A powdery substance added to H2O could stop Stanley Meyer fuel cell from working?

DennisTate

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What substance could cause the STanley Meyer technology to fail to work properly if in fact his engine was genuine and really did what he claimed it could?

.electro-tech-online.com/alternative-energy/42388-stanley-meyers-zero-point-energy.html

17th September 2008 03:44 AM Thread Starter #4
firewater
Fraud charges

It failed to work during a required demonstration of the water-fueled car in a 1990 court case. An Ohio court found Stanley Meyer guilty of "gross and egregious fraud" in a case brought against him by disgruntled investors. The court decided that the centerpiece of the car, his water fuel cell, was a conventional electrolysis device, and he was ordered to repay the investors $25,000.[1]

However, in their 1 December 1996 issue , the London Sunday Times published an article entitled "End of Road for Car that Ran on Water" by Tony Edwards. It upheld the court case, stating that three "Expert Witnesses" were not impressed and decided that the WFC was simply using conventional electrolysis. It stated Stan Meyer was found guilty of "gross and egregious fraud" and was ordered to repay the investors their $25,000. It implied that Michael Laughton, professor of electrical engineering at Queen Mary and Westfield University, London was due to examine the car, but was not allowed to see it. However, not mentioned was that this occurred in 1990 and that the WFC Water Fuel injector tech-base was still under U.S. National Security Review as in accordance to U.S. Patent Law and not available for public viewing. Also not mentioned were the many WFC Patents, verified laboratory and university testing that supports the bases of WFC technology nor the WFC appeal filing to dismiss Judge Corzine ruling due to Judicial default and other relevant information.[2]

On 18 October 1995, a pretrial deposition hearing to inspect the WFC Dealership demonstration units (Variable-plate Electrical Polarization Process (VIC) Fuel Cell and Rotary Pulse Voltage Frequecy Generator Tubular-Array Fuel Cell) was held in the office of the plaintiff's attorney, Robert Judkins. Present were the plaintiff's, their attorneys, plaintiffs expert witness, Michael Leverich (Electronics Engineer), Stan Meyer, Dr. Russel Fowler, WFC witness and defense attorneys Judge Roger Hurley and James Detling, as well as a deposition recorder. During the deposition, Attorney Judkins attempted to have the WFC dismantled prior to implementing proper test procedures, which Stan Meyer refused. Michael Leverich confirmed that his initial measurements of the WFC Fuel Cells showed that it operated exactly as the WFC documentation stated it should, as so recorded on WFC Deposition Video Tape. However, he then added a unknown white substance (powder) for additional testing. Stan objected to this, since the WFC Fuel Cell uses plain tap water and does not require a chemical additive. The plaintiffs also admitted that, during their observances at WFC Dealship Seminars, tap water was always used without any chemicals added to the water. Despite Stan's objection, plaintiff measurements were taken of this chemicallized water-bath and recorded. This illegal act of tampering with WFC Evidence of Records was witnessed by WFC Cameraman, Dr. Russ Fowler, and all others who attended Plaintiffs Deposition To-Test.[3]

In 1996, Stan Meyer gave oral testimony before the court demonstrating the WFC Fuel Cell "Mode of Operability" by using the Voltage Intensifier Circuit (VIC) to produce voltage of opposite polarity to separate and disassociate the water molecule into its component gases, hydrogen & oxygen. However, the court audio sound recording equipment seemed to malfunction and was switched off. Judge Corzine said proceedings should continue without it. This was a violation of judicial protocol, since the recording system is used to verify testimony given during the trial and as such becomes "Evidence of Records." After his oral testimony, Stan expected Attorney/Judge Hurley to start bringing forth WFC witnesses and counter arguements. Instead, Attorney/Judge Hurley spoke up, stated he had to leave for a pre-planned vacation and said that there was no more testimony to be given and waived the right of the defendant to give a case summary of the WFC facts brought before the court. Stan Meyer immediately stated he would protest and Judge Corzine ended the hearing. Stan wrote a "Request to Retract" fax-letter to the Sunday Times on 2 December 1996. He attached WFC documentation on the filing with the Disciplinary Counsel. He further stated that Judge Corzine had no right to turn off the court audio sound recording equipment, nor to rule against U.S. Patents, or overrule Government and University lab reports in the public domain concerning the mode of operability of the WFC Technology. Furthermore, Stan pointed out that no US Federal "Cease and Desist" order has ever been issued against WFC since the WFC Technology has been fully legalized under US Patent Security Law 35 USC 101 and other US Federal regulatory Acts. His final statement was that "WFC is here to stay" in contradiction to the Sunday Times statement.[4]

This was posted at: http://experts.about.com/e/w/wa/Water_fuel_cell.htm
but the part about the audio being switched off and the electrolyte added to the water was removed. I gave this site the link to it.

waterfuelcell.org/moreinfo.html
 

DennisTate

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Here is the first article that I ever read on this topic:

The Orion Project - Hydroxy Gas Energy Systems
Hydroxy Gas Energy Systems

Techniques for using electrolysis to break apart water molecules into a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen had been known centuries before Michael Faraday did his quantitative electrolysis experiments in the 1830s. Today the mixture of gases produced by electrolysis of water is commonly termed "Hydroxy Gas" or Brown's gas (named after Yul Brown who researched and promoted this technology for many years). A detailed history of hydroxy gas can be found in Robey (2006).

If you follow the links back to Peswiki you will read a great explanation as to how this engine could seem to defy the law of thermodynamics!

Another explanation is that it could be tapping into energy from quantum vacuum somehow.

Water does have some highly unusual properties as demonstrated by the Dr. Masaru Emoto research!
masaru emoto
 
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Michael

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The problem with all electrolysis based systems is that they ultimately require more energy to split the water molecule than they return when you burn the hydrogen. It's viable to use something like electricity from sunlight to split a water molecule to store it as potential chemical energy for later use. It's another thing entirely to claim that the process produces "free energy". Nothing of the sort is happening.
 
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[serious]

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The substance that would make this not work would be water.

The idea that you can split water with less energy than you get from burning hydrogen gas violates some of the most fundamental laws of physics. There have been 1000 ideas for perpetual motion machines and there will be 1000 more after this one.

In fact, here's a great classic free energy troll:
Plug A Powerstrip Into Itself For Free Electricity | Geekologie

Even the water powered car thing is an old version of free energy claims:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car#Claims_of_functioning_water-fuelled_cars
 
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DennisTate

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The problem with all electrolysis based systems is that they ultimately require more energy to split the water molecule than they return when you burn the hydrogen. It's viable to use something like electricity from sunlight to split a water molecule to store it as potential chemical energy for later use. It's another thing entirely to claim that the process produces "free energy". Nothing of the sort is happening.


You could be right Michael but the Peswiki article did give an exceptionally good explanation for how this might perhaps actually work!???!!


Directory:Stanley Meyer - PESWiki
Theory

Stanley Meyer Harmonics - Mark Cooper writes: "It came to me the other day. I was reading a book which has nothing to do with technology and I had an epiphany. Stan's device and Bob Boyce's device are the same in operation. They both use harmonics."

The electrolysis process is not dependent on energy. From Arrhenius theory, molecules in solution dissociate into ions and the ions are collected at the electrode. No energy is required for ionic dissociation and electrolysis processes are so efficient that they are used to measure current. When the Arrhenius theory is applied to the dissociation of water, the key requirement to produce 1 mole (~1 gram) of hydrogen is that 1 Faraday of electricity flows. If it is assumed that the hydrogen is produced by passing 1 amp of current for 96,494 seconds (1 Faraday = 96,494 coulombs) at 1 volt, then the energy needed is ~96.5 kJ. That same 1 gram of H2 is capable of releasing 285kJ during the combustion process with oxygen. The process of producing hydrogen from water usually requires an electrolyte to produce it in quantities. Polarization occurs at the electrodes with hydrogen collecting there. A number of methods are known for improving the efficiency of the process. In theory the process can be made energy efficient without a breach of any of the laws of thermodynamics. Meyer has obviously discovered some method of collecting the hydrogen different from the traditional methods.

In ordinary water a small amount of the water dissociates into hydrogen and hydroxyl ions. These ions are immediately hydrated. The amount dissociating depends on the purity of the water and in very pure water is equal to 1 part in 10 million (10^-7), or a pH of 7. Normally ordinary water is described as non-conducting. The process has never been fully explained. Hydrogen and hydroxyl ions are constantly being created and then decaying back to water, but there is always a balance between the numbers ionized and the numbers in solution. Under normal electrolysis these ions can be swept to electrodes and neutralized with the opposite charge. Hydrogen and oxygen can be produced. However, with conventional circuits, the energy used in collecting the hydrogen is greater than the energy that is available from the hydrogen. Meyer has utilized a novel electronic circuit which produces high voltages but prevents currents from flowing. This circuit is similar to a classical forced oscillation circuit where charge q can go to infinity. The power to this circuit is coming from an alternator which is across a stainless steel capacitor with water between the plates. The dielectric water itself provides the charge to charge up the capicator and create the high voltage. This charge comes from the hydrogen and hydroxyl ions. The more charge that flows the more the voltage builds up and the more ions are pulled out of solution. The circuit has a high frequency of the order of five kilohertz superimposed through the windings of the field coils. In addition, the circuit is half-wave rectified to allow the capacitor to discharge. On the charging up side the ions are pulled out of the dielectric and moved towards the metal electrodes. On the discharging side they may go back into solution. The circuit succeeds in increasing briefly the number of ions which are out of solution. A portion of these ions are able to form hydrogen and oxygen by normal electrolysis type processes. The hydrogen and oxygen bubble to the surface. The circuit is novel in that it is a form of electrolysis but there is no need for any net current to flow. While the voltage applied is zero, the ionized charges are able to recombine without flowing around the circuit and using energy. Theoretically, there is no reason why the process cannot be totally efficient in producing hydrogen and oxygen. The efficiency depends on the tuning frequency of the LC circuit and having this balanced with the mobility of the ions and the spacing between the plates. There may also be a need to allow a definite relaxation time after each pulse, to increase the period in which the ionized charges may recombine and hydrogen and oxygen may be collected. The process does not defy the laws of thermodynamics in that the energy comes from the energy of dissociation of the molecules. A portion on the molecules are dissociating and associating automatically all the time. In the normal course of events, this does not change the energy of the water. This process interrupts this cycle and allows a person to form water in the stable state of diatomic hydrogen and oxygen. The process is not dissimilar to the vaporization of water which takes place naturally. The water forms clouds, then rain. Rivers flow and energy is extracted from the rivers. The difference is that it is possible to carry out the cycle under laboratory type conditions or industrial type conditions and extract the energy in the form of hydrogen. By developing a process to utilize the hydrogen ions directly on formation, a great deal more energy will be available and this is Meyer's intention in terms of adaption of his fuel cell for an ordinary car. In addition, he utilizes laser light to stimulate the transfer between energy levels and increase the efficiency of the process. This process would equally explain the explosions in water performed in the University of Kansas which have been recorded in literature. Deuterium present in the water will be selected out during the reaction and the water remaining in the condenser will become deuterium rich which will inhibit the process. In the process, gases absorbed in water are preferentially desorbed. These amount to ~3 wt% water. It is not clear if they play any significant part in the process. In addition, impurities in the water are taken out of solution. On the basis of the theory proposed, the process could continue indefinitely, the energy effectively coming from the zero point energy of vibration of the atoms in the molecule. This is assisted by the infrared radiation from the surroundings so that the whole device will act as an efficient heat pump. The deuterium vibrations will be similar in frequency to the hydrogen vibrations. Resonance effects between the two vibrations may also contribute to the process. If this is a serious contributor to the process, then the water produced from the hydrogen and oxygen will be less likely to produce further energy as the deuterium will have largely been selected out in the total process. There is no reason to believe this is the case and in any event the balance will be restored by nature mixing the water formed with normal water vapor.

Where does the energy come from? Effectively, the water molecule is marginally unstable in water solution and is constantly acting as a 'radioactive' molecule, tossing out H+ and OH- ions. The energy of the process comes from the formation energy of these ions.

Born-Haber Cycle For Meyer Process (similar to Boyce process):
All energies in kJ/mol
H -OH Dissociation Energy + 494
H+ Ionization +1310
Hydration of H+ to form H3O+ -1075
Electron Affinity of OH - 223 (Assumed affinity is between that of O and Cl)
Total: +506 kJ/mol
(Part 1)
 
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DennisTate

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Directory:Stanley Meyer - PESWiki

Part 2:
In normal water, a portion of the ions are dissociated. For pure water, this is one in 10 million (10^-7) or a pH of 7. Initially, H+ and OH- are formed but are immediately hydrated to H3O+ and OH-. From the above for the H3O+ and OH- ions, the energy of formation is 506 kJ/mol. The process occurs natually without any electrical input, etc. If these ions are removed, more are produced by the water. This process can be explained by quantum mechanics. The atoms in the molecule will have a 'zero point energy' of vibration and therefore there is a finite chance of dissociation. With high electric fields, this chance would be greatly increased. (See pages 520 and 521 of Fundamental Atomic Physics, Tomlin). The release will also be affected by the presence of other oins which again affect the potential. Once released, the full energy of dissociation will be available as energy.

The hydronium ions and the hydroxyl ions formed by this process may form gases by the following process:
H3O+ + Metal --> Metal+ + H + H2O
H + H --> H2 Release of 436 kJ/mol
OH- + Metal --> Metal- + OH
OH + OH --> H2O2
H2O2 --> H2O + O Release of 49 kJ/mol
O + O --> O2 Release of 491 kJ/mol
Overall reaction: 4H3O+ + 4OH- --> 2H2 + O2 + 6H2O

As it takes 2 H atoms to form H2, only half of the energy of the 436 KJ will be involved in the process.

As is takes 2OH to produce H2O2, only half of the energy of this reaction will be involved in the process.

For the formation on O2, it will take 4 OH radicals and therefore one quarter of the energy will apply in this case.

The Meyer's theory focuses on the basic structures of hydrogen and oxygen atoms and how they are combined in the water molecule. Note the orbital path of the electrons and their 'shells'; the magnetic polarity of an electron and a nucleus; and the space occupied by the so-called vacuum. Note the presence of the two hydrogen atoms in the 'L' shell of the oxygen atom. These are known as the covalent electrons which are bonded in position by considerable force. In the case of normal electrolysis, the energy needed to break these bonds and produce separate hydrogen and oxygen atoms from water is roughly three times the energy of the hydrogen bond released. It is thus a highly inefficient process because of the considerable amount of waste heat which is generated. The energy extracted by Meyer's process is derived from two distinct but virtually simultaneous processes. The first, the hydrogen fracturing process which dissociates the hydrogen gas from the water molecule and the second, the electron ionizaton process which enhanced the explosive energy of the gases released. The basis of this process is the subjection of the water molecule to very high voltage (20,000+) pulses at a particular frequency and within positively and negatively charged voltage zones at a very low current (less than 1 milliamp). The effect is to attract the negatively charged electrons towards the positive voltage zone and the positively charged nucleus towards the negative zone. The electron orbital path is changed from a circle to an ellipse and this, coupled with the effect of pulsing, causes such electrical stress on the molecule that the covalent bonds between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms are broken and the two gases are separated. Therefore, they require substantial energy to be applied before they can be recombined. Because the current is so low, very little heat is generated. It is worth noting that, weight for weight, hydrogen contains about 2.5 times the energy of gasoline and the latent energy in the hydrogen content of a pint of water amounts to over 9 million joules, or enough to run a 2500 watt load for an hour.

Two distinct questions arise over explosive energy enhancement. First, where does the additional energy come from? And second, how is it to be obtained and controlled? The answer to the first question is the so-called vacuum within the electron shells. For many years, this vacuum was regarded as a void. But James Clerk Maxwell, in his 'Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism' published in 1873, pointed out that the vacuum in fact contains a considerable amount of energy. Subsequent work bears this out and it is now generally accepted that the vacuum is in fact seething with energy which has been variously described as, for example, 'universal energy', 'gravity field energy' or 'Zero Point Energy' (ZPE). John Archibald Wheeler of Princeton University and a leading physicist who worked on the US atomic bomb project, has calculated that the flux density of ZPE is of the order of 10^93 grams per cm^3. It is also recognized that the state of this so called 'sea of energy' is chaotic. Hence, it needs to be 'engineered' or made coherent before it can be translated from a microscopic to a macroscopic state. In other words, it requires special treatment before it can be tapped and controlled for normal external use. Various answers, mostly theoretical, have been given to the second question. Recent examples include Ilya Prigogine's book 'Order Out of Chaos' which describes the work which won him the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1977, Moray B. King's 'Tapping the Zero Point Energy', Dr. J. Huber's paper 'Phenomena of the Free Energy in Nature and Technology', John Davidson's 'The Secret of the Creative Vacuum' and, from the Kansas State University, Gary L. Johnson's 'Electrically Induced Explosions in Water'. Some 30 supposedly practical devices have been made or suggested over the past 80 years, but although some have been demonstrated none has been developed or engineered to a preproduction standard until recently. Meyer's and Boyce's technologies stands out as a couple of the exceptions. They have encountered deep skepticism but no argued rejection. Indeed, an increasing number of scientists and engineers in the U.S., Europe and Asia accept the technology at face value and are prepared to invest in it on the basis of current evidence. A practical demonstration is in fact due to take place within the next few weeks based on a fully designed Boyce resonance drive system, engineered to a preproduction standard and will be fitted to a running Toyota Prius.

The technical basis for Meyer's extraction and control of ZPE lies mainly in the effect produced on an atomic nucleus by continuation of the same high voltage pulsing that causes the dissociation of the water molecule. The nucleus consists of one or more positively charged protons bound together with a number of neutrally charged neutrons. The electrical effect of the electron pumping action mentioned earlier causes an annulus to appear in the middle of the nucleus. The ZPE is drawn in a helical motion through the annulus and, in doing so, becomes coherent and hence a usable source of energy. The voltage dictates the size of the annulus and hence controls the energy obtained. Since the basic structure of the atom is retained no alpha or gamma radiation occurs. The effect might be illustrated by a bath full of water. So long as the plug is in place, the water remains still and apparently powerless. However, when the plug is removed, the water swirls away with a helical motion down the plug hole and, under the influence of gravity, forms a powerful jet which cn be directed to do work. Thus, in an internal combustion engine, replaces an existing spark plug or diesel fuel injector, and the output is ignited by a high voltage pulse on entry into the cylinder. Consequently, the hydrogen does not have to be stored and the fuel tanks of land or air vehicles contain nothing but water. Vessels floating on water need no fuel tanks. The system is thus not only extremely safe but also inexpensive. Meyer has quoted the in-production cost of a conversion kit for a 1600cc VW engined car as $1500.

Boyce and Meyer units encounter a credibility gap among conventional scientists and academia because they appear to run counter to the long established human laws governing our interpretation of nature. Some people therefore reject these technologies because they appear to be unnatural and just two more spurious claims for perpetual motion. In fact, these phenomena are entirely natural. It merely demonstrates a new and revolutionary way of harnessing what nature has always had on offer. It does not infringe the two main laws of thermodynamics. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that the total energy of a thermodynamic system remains constant although is may be transformed from one form to another. In the case of Boyce and Meyer, the system under consideration is global. The energy required to drive the engine comes from the ZPE contained in water, a virtually inexhaustible source. The exhaust from the engine is water vapor which returns to the atmosphere or can be redirected back into the units. The Second Law of Thermodynamics as originally formulated by R. Clausius in 1865 states that the entropy of the world strives towards a maximum. As recently formulated by Prigogine and Stengers, this law contains two fundamental elements: (1) a negative one that expreses the impossibility of ceretain processes (e.g., heat flowing from a cold to a hot source) and (2) a positive, constructive one. It is the impossibility of certain processes that permits us to introduce a function, entropy, which increases uniformly and behaves as an attractor for isolated systems. It is at maximum when the system is in equilibrium. Nonequilibrium is the source of order and brings order out of chaos. Since Boyce and Meyer technologies postulate nonequilibrium, it can be said to be supported by the positive element of this law.
 
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DennisTate

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[serious];62960084 said:
The substance that would make this not work would be water.

The idea that you can split water with less energy than you get from burning hydrogen gas violates some of the most fundamental laws of physics. There have been 1000 ideas for perpetual motion machines and there will be 1000 more after this one.

In fact, here's a great classic free energy troll:
Plug A Powerstrip Into Itself For Free Electricity | Geekologie

Even the water powered car thing is an old version of free energy claims:
Water-fuelled car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For all I know Serious....you could be right....but there are things about the court case that jump out at me as indicating that this whole thing deserves a second look!

Israel as a nation depends greatly on the USA. The introduction of a hydrogen cell vehicle in Israel would obviously create quite a stir on Wall Street. So what options are available to pass this technology off to Israel's most staunch ally, the USA!

Well, America has been called a "litigious society" so one of the best ways to attract the attention of a potential American investor who could deal with the possible negative backlash is to have a court case....and the investor is attracted by the publicity!??!!


firewater
Stanley Meyers and Zero-Point energy


It's been said that Stanley Meyer's invention which split water into hydrogen and oxygen on demand violates the second law of thermodynamics.

"Scientists' current understanding of the universe and all its particles and forces is called the Standard Model and is now over 35 years old. It does not explain why some particles, such as protons, are relatively heavy, while others, like photons, have no mass at all. In a theory that dates to the early 1960s, a British physicist named Peter Higgs sugessted that there was a mechanism - alternatively described as a field, boson, a particle, a whaddayacallit - that makes some things heavy and other things lite."

What do the detectors do?

"They will also look for "dark matter" believed to make up most of the universe, antimatter that mirrors all known matter, and the elusive Higgs-boson particle - sometimes called the "God particle", because is is believed to give mass to all other particles."

William Booth, Washigton Post, on the (LHC) Large Hadron Collider built near Geneva Switzerland and now in the testing phase.

The second law of thermodynamics only applies to linear systems and the behavior of the particles involved are based on the Standard Model, which is incomplete.

John Archibald Wheeler who just died recently, worked on the Manhattan Project (Atom bomb) and Matterhorn project (Hydrogen bomb) and was first to coin the phrases, blackhole and wormhole.)

"Then however, I discovered the two chapters of Misner, Thorne and Wheelers's "Gravitation" that in quantum mechnics there existed an all-pervading energy imbedded in the fabric of space consisting of fluctions of electricity. It was called the zero-point energy. Zero-Point energy refers to absolute zero degrees Kelvin. Wheeler's "Geometrodynamics" showed that the energy density was enormous: 10^93grams/cm^3. Quantum mechanics showed that this energy was constantly interacting with matter and elementary particles in what what is called vacuum polarization."

"Modern physics may allow the posibility of tapping energy out of the fabric of space. While studying physics as a graduate student, I ran into a most interesting set of papers.[1-8] they stated that totally empty space was filled with fluctuating energy. As as engineer caught in an energy crisis, two questions arose. Was energy really there and, is so, could it be tapped as a source? I talked with many scientists on this matter and discovered a remarkable thing: Most did not believe this energy existed. However I did run into some physicists who were already familiar with the concept. When I asked them, "Why can't this energy be tapped?" the reply was, "It would violate the second law of thermodynamics, the law of entropy. Random fluctions must forever remain random." To them, there was no way to influence this energy.

Then I discovered the work of Dr. Timothy Boyer who showed that matter influenced this fluctuating energy. And recently, I discovered the work of Dr. Ilya Prigogine, the 1977 Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, who expanded the second law of thermodynamics to show how certain systems may evolve from randomness toward order. Combining their work opens up the possibility, in principle that the fluctuating energy of space may be cohered into a source."

"The recent work of work of Procaccia clarifies the second law of thermodynamics. He demonstrates that nonlinear systems under certain conditions may evolve toward macroscopic order. A simple example of this thesis is the rectifier circuit ( Figure 1). Here thermal noise from the resistor is channeled through the one-way valve of the diode to charge up the capacitor. This, energy in a random state (thermal noise) is channeled to produce energy that can be used for work (charged capacitor)."

"Since a nonlinear system does not exhibit linear superposition, a combination of inputs often produces suprising, synergistic effects--the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts. A striking example of this comes from the field of plasma physics. When sufficient energy (e.g. an electric impulse) is added to a gas, it ionizes into plasma. If more energy is added, the electric charge undergoes violent, random, turbulent motion. If still more energy is added, a surprising thing can sometimes occur:
The violent turblent plasma forms up into a meta-stable vortex ring called a plasmoid.[11-13] Figure 2 is a cross-section diagram of the current flow in the plasmoid. Such a structure cannot be predicted by a linear thermodynamic model, but can be predicted by a nonlinear magnetohydrodynamic model. the nonlinear interactions produce macroscopic coherence form random turblence. This plasmoid vortex ring may produce a cohering resonance with the zero-point energy as the zero-point energy interacts with the plasmoid. This interaction occurs in a nonlinear system evolving toward meta-stable order. Could the plasmoid slightly cohere the zer-point energy by vacuum polarization so that it provides tha energy fux needed to maintain the system? Are ther any examples in nature that imply such a thing could occur? Ball lightning has been modeled as a vortex ring plasmoid[15,16] and its suprising persistence implies it is interacting with some source of energy."

Tapping Zero Point Energy
ISBN: 0-931882-00-2
Moray B. King

REFERENCES

ETHER, ZERO POINT ENERGY

1. M. Rutherfer, "Neutrino Structure of Ether." Lett. Il Nuovo Cimento 13, No. 1, 9 (1975)
This paper references various Lorentz invariant ether thories.

2. H. C. Dudley, The Morality of nuclear Planning, Kronos Press (1976), Glassboro, NJ 08208
This monograph describes a neutrino ether and its relation to radioactivity. Also "Is There an Ether"", Science Digest, (May 15,1975).

3. G. Gamow, Thirty Years that Shook Physics, Doubleday, NY (1966)
This text contains a simple description of Dirac's vitural pair vacuum.

4. C. Misner, K. Thorne, and J. Wheeler, Graviation, W.H. Freeman and Co. (1970)
Chapters 43 and 44 contain description of zero-point fluctuations and superspace. Also John Archibald Wheeler, Geometrodynamics,
Academic Press Inc. (1962) describes vacuum fluctuations and wormholes.

5. T.H. Boyer, "Random Electrodynamics: The Theory of Classical Electrodynamics with Classical Electromagnetic Zero-Point Radiation." Phys. rev. D11, No. 4 790 (1975)

6. M.O. Scully, M. Sargent, "The Concept of the Photon." Physics Today, 38, (March 1972)

7. E. G. Harris, A Pedestrian Approach to Quantum Field Theory, Wiley Interscience (1972). Chapter 10, " The Problem of Infinties in Quantum Electrodymanics."
This text references experiments tha detect the zero-point energy.

8. S.L. Adler, "Some Simple Vacuum Polarization Phenomenology..." Phys. Rev. D10, No. 11 (1974)


NONLINEAR THERMODYNAMICS

9. Ilya Procaccia, J. Ross, Science 198, 716 (18 Nov. 1977)

10. P. Glandsdorff, I. Prigogine, Thermodynamic Theory of Structure, Stability, and Fluctuations, Wiley interscience, NY (1971).

15. P.O. Johnson, " Ball Lightning and Self Containing Electromagnetic Fields." Am. J. Phys. 33, 119 (1965).

16. M. B. King, "Energy Source Implications of a Helicon Toroid Model for Ball Lightning." QPR No. 18, Valley Forge Res. Center, Moore School, University of Pennsylvanna (1976)

.electro-tech-online.com/alternative-energy/42388-stanley-meyers-zero-point-energy.html
 
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For the record it is theoretically possible for a North American church to print up their own currency unit similar to CalgaryDollars.ca
and use them partly to attempt to finance research into green energy devices such as this?????!!!

Not easy to do....but possible????!!!

The research can be turned into documentary or reality film projects that both raise awareness of what is being attempted and also offset the costs from the revenue from the films???!!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7701455/
North American churches should each have their own currency!
 
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'As we treat the least of our brothers...' RIP GA
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You could be right Michael but the Peswiki article did give an exceptionally good explanation for how this might perhaps actually work!???!!


Directory:Stanley Meyer - PESWiki
Theory

(Part 1)

Can we agree that blatantly pulling figures out of your butt suggests you are being dishonest? Let's start with the whole "Electron Affinity of OH - 223 (Assumed affinity is between that of O and Cl)"

Well, why on earth would OH- have an electron affinity between O and Cl? Even at a high school chemistry level, this is insane. Electron affinity is the energy released when an electron is bound to an atom (or molecule in this case). Both oxygen and chlorine both desperately want another electron due to the octet rule, hence have very high electron affinities. Hydroxide ion, on the other hand, already has an extra electron. It's electron affinity would be much lower as it is both at it's octet AND has an extra electron. This isn't even the kind of thing that you could reasonably mix up, this is pants-on-fire lying.
 
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DennisTate

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[serious];62965417 said:
Can we agree that blatantly pulling figures out of your butt suggests you are being dishonest? Let's start with the whole "Electron Affinity of OH - 223 (Assumed affinity is between that of O and Cl)"

Well, why on earth would OH- have an electron affinity between O and Cl? Even at a high school chemistry level, this is insane. Electron affinity is the energy released when an electron is bound to an atom (or molecule in this case). Both oxygen and chlorine both desperately want another electron due to the octet rule, hence have very high electron affinities. Hydroxide ion, on the other hand, already has an extra electron. It's electron affinity would be much lower as it is both at it's octet AND has an extra electron. This isn't even the kind of thing that you could reasonably mix up, this is pants-on-fire lying.

Great question serious!!!!

I've personally forgotten too much of my high school chemistry to be able to answer your question. Hopefully somebody else will come along here who can?????!!!!
 
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I recently read that inventor Stanley Meyer had turned down an extremely large offer from an oil company for his invention…. but he turned it down for ethical reasons… He felt that they were trying to keep his invention out of public hands!

Stanley said he was offered a billion dollars from an Arab to basically shelf his idea. Stan said, "no, this technology is for the people."
(waterpoweredcar.com)
 
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[serious];65873704 said:
If you are going to necro this thread, could you at least source the electron affinity of the hydroxide ion? That was where we left off.

I will have to leave that one to somebody more familiar with this subject than I am!

I gave a link to a Peswiki article on this on page one that looks really good to me.
 
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I recently read that inventor Stanley Meyer had turned down an extremely large offer from an oil company for his invention…. but he turned it down for ethical reasons… He felt that they were trying to keep his invention out of public hands!

(waterpoweredcar.com)

That claim only shows that you are totally ignorant about patent law. You can't buy a patent and hide it forever. You have a limited amount of time to develop it. It is public knowledge. It can't be hidden and be patented.
 
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I will have to leave that one to somebody more familiar with this subject than I am!

I gave a link to a Peswiki article on this on page one that looks really good to me.

I am more familiar with chemistry than you. The claim is out right ridiculous. It's pants on fire lying. It isn't even the kind of thing that someone unfamiliar with chemistry would come up with. It's actually out right, clearly deliberate fabrication.
 
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[serious];65875738 said:
I am more familiar with chemistry than you. The claim is out right ridiculous. It's pants on fire lying. It isn't even the kind of thing that someone unfamiliar with chemistry would come up with. It's actually out right, clearly deliberate fabrication.

So then you think that Stanley Meyer's statement about being offered a substantial sum of money to keep his invention off the market was probably false?
 
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So then you think that Stanley Meyer's statement about being offered a substantial sum of money to keep his invention off the market was probably false?

It's possible someone offered him money. Companies do fall for pseudoscience scams sometimes. Whether someone with money got tricked is irrelevant though.
 
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Hey, here's a simple way to settle the argument... if this water powered car works, build one and show us.

Apparently that was already done…. but the only people who were convinced were the ones who didn't want it available to the general public…. or people who had neither the resources or the courage to mass produce it.


Empire Hydrogen Energy Systems Inc. - History: Stanley Meyer

It is important to understand a major distinction here between Stanley Meyer's claims that his vehicle ran on only water and the technology involved in hydrogen enhancement of existing fuels. Stanley Meyer claimed to be able to split into hydrogen and oxygen by some unknown super-efficient process. Conventional science says this is not possible - it defies the First Law of Thermodynamics, also known as the Law of Conservation of Energy - which says that "energy can neither be created nor destroyed".

If Tesla's theories on Energy from Quantum Vacuum are true……… this could perhaps turn out to explain how the Stanley Meyer vehicle did NOT violate the Law of Conservation of Energy.

Energy from Quantum Vacuum could even perhaps help to explain the intriguing Dr. Masaru Emoto research.

Does prayer help a human to tap into one part of "Energy from Quantum Vacuum?"
masaru emoto

Observe the crystal of frozen water after showing
letters to water
Showing pictures to water
Playing music to water
Praying to water
In all of these experiments, distilled water for hospital usage produced by the same company was used. Since it is distilled twice, it can be said that it is pure water.

The result was that we always observed beautiful crystals after giving good words, playing good music, and showing, playing, or offering pure prayer to water. On the other hand, we observed disfigured crystals in the opposite situation. Moreover, we never observed identical crystals.
I published these results as photograph collections: “Messages from Water 1” (1999), “Messages from Water 2” (2002), “Messages from Water 3” (2004), and “Messages from Water 4” (2008). (All of them are published from Hado Kyoiku-Sha.)


Philippians 4:8

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
 
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[serious];65898181 said:
It's possible someone offered him money. Companies do fall for pseudoscience scams sometimes. Whether someone with money got tricked is irrelevant though.


So serious……….. could this assertion be true that fundamental energy (Energy from Quantum Vacuum)...operates at SOME TRILLIONS the level of energy attainable in a particle accelerator?



"Although nature manifests four distinct forces, physicists believe that
each may be part of a smaller number of more primitive forces. At high energy, the electromagnetic and weak forces appear to merge into a single "electroweak" force. Some "grand unified theories" suggest that a further amalgamation takes place between the electroweak and strong forces at as yet unattained energies. The most ambitious unification schemes envisage an amalgamation of all four forces into a single "superforce" at ultra-high levels of energy."
...


"The real burden in the next three centuries will not be the development of fancy mathematics, but the experimental testing of these ambitious theories. All current thinking about total unification assumes that the effects of linking all the forces and particles together will only become manifest at energies that are some trillion times greater than those currently attainable in particle accelerators. Probably we shall never reach such energies directly" ( A Theory of Everything" Volume 21 of "The World of Science)


Serious……. do you think that it might just be possible that perhaps we humans are neither the most well informed nor the most influential beings in the universe????????!!!!

Wow!!!!!!
 
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