4 ways to be religious

[JackofSpades]

I see four possible ways that religion is usually practised, focusing on one of four sides of it:


1) Pragmatism - Let's not worry about dogmas or other too complicated stuff, let's change the world!

2) Dogmatic - Let's take academic approach on religion and focus on studying bible (or whatever authorative texts) in detail and discuss about theology!

3) Tradition - Old generations allready did it right, so let's do it like they did and keep up church services and traditions!

4) Spirituality/mysticism - Morals and dogmatics aside, let's go to other dimensions, and feel it!


I could pretty much label all religious movements I know under some of those four cathegories, altho some of them are more balanced than others and would probably need two labels.

I'm personally drawn mostly towards mysticism-oriented movements. Those keep getting my attention and inspire me most in my own life.

I also admire pragmatic peoples who manage to do something good in real life, like helping poor. Those other two (dogmatic, tradition) are just not my thing.


- Do you agree with my 4-cathegory theory?

- Which one of those is most attractive to you? Why so?

 

[Messy]

a mix of 1, 2 and 4: let's change the world, good bible study only to support that, not to discuss uninteresting things that don't matter and experience God of course, have a relationship with Him.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I think those four categories are a good overview of what religiousness can look like. I don't think it covers all of the specifics, but it works as a general overview. Personally, I feel apart of the first, second, and third categories.

Pragmatism - I like pragmatism since I think that is what the gospel is about, changing the world. To me, that is main purpose of the Christian life, trying to live in the kingdom of God while trying to bring in the kingdom to God. While I do like to theological debates, I think very little of that is actually vital to salvation. To me, your eschatological viewpoint or whether or how old the Earth is is just a matter of personal viewpoint and opinion. The only thing that really matters is that you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and as a result of that, you try to follow His' teaching.
I think that ignoring this bit will leave your beliefs irrelevant to the rest of the world

Dogmatism - Even though very little of really matters on any kind of necessary for salvation, I think knowing about your faith is important. It's not important in any kind of life or death matter, but otherwise it is a lot easier to go astray if you do not know what your religion believes. Really, this is one of the main things that unites us as a faith and allows us to figure out what is heresy and what is cannon. As I said, when you leave this out, it opens the door for heresy.

Tradition - They say that those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Tradition ultimately stems from dogma. There is no mention in the Bible of Lent, or Advent, but the ideas behind them are very biblical. Plus, there's nothing in scripture that really says we have to gather on Sundays, or commands on particular style of worship, but again, the ideas behind it are very Biblical. On the other hand, tradition should not be as cannon as dogma, nor should it be completely tossed out because, like dogmatism, can also easily lead into heresy.

Spirituality/Mysticism The reason that I don't connect to this one much is mainly because I am not mystical person. My mind tends to be very naturalistic and physical. I do think this is still important as religion is answers the spiritual questions. Likewise, I think when we focus too much on this, it's easy to forget that this world matters.

 

[JackofSpades]

Spirituality/Mysticism The reason that I don't connect to this one much is mainly because I am not mystical person. My mind tends to be very naturalistic and physical. I do think this is still important as religion is answers the spiritual questions. Likewise, I think when we focus too much on this, it's easy to forget that this world matters.

I don't intend to argue about objective importance of mysticism in big scheme of universe, since obviously we have some fundamental differencies in our thinking anyways, but there is one thing I'd like to mention.

I'm not sure how much tendency to be into mysticism is actually about personality. As younger, I was pretty neutral spiritually, I had practically no spiritual experiences till I was 19 years old. Then I had this one life-changing experience and since then I've always been into that kind of stuff.

My personal experience is that my spiritual side came (or was given) to me at certain point, not so much that it was always part of me.

 

[Rhamiel]

I think you need all four

 

[SnowyMacie]

I'm not sure how much tendency to be into mysticism is actually about personality. As younger, I was pretty neutral spiritually, I had practically no spiritual experiences till I was 19 years old. Then I had this one life-changing experience and since then I've always been into that kind of stuff.

My personal experience is that my spiritual side came (or was given) to me at certain point, not so much that it was always part of me.

My personal experience has made me doubt mysticism even more, I spent significant time around essentially Christian mystics, and didn't really see any spiritual/phenomenon they claimed. I've heard people talk about seeing gold sparkles in worship services or gold dust, and I just think "Yeah, do you know how easy that is to fake?" I'm not saying it can't happen, but from what I've seen and experienced, I don't think spiritual events like that happen as people think. Plus, these things are usually manifestations of the presence of God, the one time that I think I felt the true presence of God, the reaction of wasn't cheering (like I've seen in videos), and the feel of the room certainly didn't call for it, or any kind of "spiritual high".

 

[JackofSpades]

My personal experience has made me doubt mysticism even more, I spent significant time around essentially Christian mystics, and didn't really see any spiritual/phenomenon they claimed. I've heard people talk about seeing gold sparkles in worship services or gold dust, and I just think "Yeah, do you know how easy that is to fake?"

All paths have their risks and downsides, I was personally some years member of online support group for ex-charismatic christians, so I'm somewhat familiar with many fake/sick things that are possible with it. I have no interest of defending any attempts to consciously fake supernatural events. Unless it's of course done openly as good show, like professional mentalists do.

From what you write, it's obvious that you're no fan of charismatic christianity, so talking about Christian mysticism generally, I have to mention that modern charismatic meetings are just one version of Christian mysticism. Some other sides of it can be rather different in nature.

For example, when Christians of early centuries wanted to make that sort of "career", they typically isolated themselves for years in desert, living in loneliness or something similar, which is quite opposite of seeking emotionally loaded crowds. In history of the christian church, branch of mysticism that sticks out most is that associated with monastic life. Rather many well-known christian mystics have been monks or nuns.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I see four possible ways that religion is usually practised, focusing on one of four sides of it:


1) Pragmatism - Let's not worry about dogmas or other too complicated stuff, let's change the world!

2) Dogmatic - Let's take academic approach on religion and focus on studying bible (or whatever authorative texts) in detail and discuss about theology!

3) Tradition - Old generations allready did it right, so let's do it like they did and keep up church services and traditions!

4) Spirituality/mysticism - Morals and dogmatics aside, let's go to other dimensions, and feel it!


I could pretty much label all religious movements I know under some of those four cathegories, altho some of them are more balanced than others and would probably need two labels.

I'm personally drawn mostly towards mysticism-oriented movements. Those keep getting my attention and inspire me most in my own life.

I also admire pragmatic peoples who manage to do something good in real life, like helping poor. Those other two (dogmatic, tradition) are just not my thing.


- Do you agree with my 4-cathegory theory?

- Which one of those is most attractive to you? Why so?

I have to think about it a bit more, because I have a hunch that there could be additional but this grouping seems to be plausible.

I'm a combination of 1-3. I'm certainly pragmatic in that I think there's a philanthropic/altruistic side to Christianity that's underemphasized in many circles. I also prefer a scholarship- and tradition-based faith.

I'd be curious to see your list of movements that belong to each grouping.

 

[Tess]

I'm with Rhamiel, I think you probably need elements of all four things.

 

[JackofSpades]

I have to think about it a bit more, because I have a hunch that there could be additional but this grouping seems to be plausible.

I was thinking of adding "morality/moralism" as one, but I think it's actually sub-version of pragmatism. I see mission to save society by prohibiting candy stores or mission to save individuals souls by making them stop drinking alcohol as more or less same thing, just in different scale.

I'd be curious to see your list of movements that belong to each grouping.

Hmm. Please note that I live half planet away from most of you, so what characterics some movements have in my experience, might not apply there.


Christian:

1) Pragmatism - Liberal christianity generally. Conservative movements in this cathegory are typically closer to ministries than denominations, so all charity- or evangelizing ministries and movements go here.
2) Dogmatic - Lutheranism.
3) Tradition - Eastern Orthodox, Catholic.
4) Spirituality/mysticism - Neocharismatic, Pentecostal, Quakerism.


Outside of Christianity, some examples I know:

1) Pragmatism- Secular theism, theistic humanism.
2) Dogmatic - Christianity (I know, it's not outside of Christianity but it's best example I know on this)
3) Tradition - Judaism, Reconstructionist paganism.
4) Spirituality/mysticism - Shamanism. Eclecticism.

 

[JackofSpades]

I'm with Rhamiel, I think you probably need elements of all four things.

Even if you do, I think it's typical that some of them gets emphasized more than others. I didn't really mean it in a way that people would pick one and kick rest out, but rather in a way that what is their primary focus.

 

[Tess]

Even if you do, I think it's typical that some of them gets emphasized more than others. I didn't really mean it in a way that people would pick one and kick rest out, but rather in a way that what is their primary focus.

Fair enough, you're probably right!

Hmmmm, I'm not sure which one/s I'm leaning towards the most...
Probably 4... followed byyyy... maybe 1

 

[Rhamiel]

Even if you do, I think it's typical that some of them gets emphasized more than others. I didn't really mean it in a way that people would pick one and kick rest out, but rather in a way that what is their primary focus.

well number 2, Dogma (or maybe orthodoxy) is the foundational thing

it is kind of like going on a long trip, if you do not have a good map, you can get very lost
pragmatism gets things done, but if the basis for action are wrong, then you can get into some serious problems
traditions are very important, but if you have a weak sense of dogma, you will just pick up whatever traditions are handed to you with out being able to sift through what is universal truth and what is something that is particular to your own family/culture/faith tradition
mysticism is also very fundamental to Christianity, many might not like that term, linking it to occult things, but in the basic sense of the word it means the personal/spiritual relationship you have with Jesus, Christianity is a very "mystical" religion when compared with Judaism or Islam, but without a good sense of orthodoxy it is hard to be sober minded and it can lead to people being very individualistic and slaves to their emotions

all 4 are needed to one degree or another, but orthodoxy is foundational

 

[JackofSpades]

it is kind of like going on a long trip, if you do not have a good map, you can get very lost

Heh, we see it quite opposite way. In my symbol universe, because you're supposed to find your own way, there is a big chance that where you're about to go, has never been mapped before. Certain map, or dogma, might give you a good place to start, but eventually in order to go all the way with spiritual exploration, you're supposed to wander off the map to do the searching of unmapped areas yourself.

I don't see staying on mapped area as fundamentally wrong thing, but in many cases, it might turn out to be limiting the area of exploration. I guess how good it is to stay there depends on how dangerous we assume the area to be to begin with. I might consider exploration of spiritual jungles to be safer business (not without risks tho) than you do.

mysticism is also very fundamental to Christianity, many might not like that term, linking it to occult things,

I didn't know the word in english has association to occultism in particular, actually I most often hear it used in Christian context. I've heard many Christians describe themselves as "mystic" in same manner some others might call themselves "theologian". For me, it's just descriptive term which means person holds experiential spirituality important and can be used in context of any religion.

 

[Rhamiel]

like in the 1800's people who said they could read minds or talk to ghosts were sometimes called "mystics"

of course you are right, the word has much deeper meaning