LDS 2 Nephi 25:23

[Jane_Doe]

Then you would be dead wrong about me if you wish to wonder or even believe such a thing.

Who said I haven't watched this video you keep suggesting everyone watch? Not me. This is not the only forum where this particular video content has come up. You assume WAY too much, sir, in more ways than just one.

First of all, Mormons are taught to believe they must complete a laundry list of tasks in order to meet the goal of godhood. Not for salvation, no. Their "LDS" label does that (at least in this tagged forum). Ask them. If the greatest Christian who ever walked this earth is not LDS (even if it was you) before they die, they can never complete this list, and therefore can never attain Mormon godhood. Do YOU believe that concept has any biblical basis for salvation? (If you do, you might as well call yourself what you are. Mormon.) I'm not inserting this for nothing. Wait for it.

Regardless, mormonism attempts to claim everyone goes to heaven, which is clearly not a biblical concept by any means. I have no idea what you believe on the subject: you might think it is, but Christianity does not. Mormonism is deliberately designed to bat at shadows when specifically attempting to show where they "don't meet any 'conditions'" from yours and mormonism's misguided viewpoint. However, works-based salvation depends upon man's "goodness". God says no man's "goodness" is worthy of His holiness. ALL "goodness" must come through Jesus Christ alone. Mormonism does not teach this (see godhood above). We all know the devil also believes in God, and trembles. That belief doesn't save him. So it cannot be simply "belief" that saves, but it is acceptance of being born again in the Spirit through Jesus Christ. Mormonism also does not teach the need to be born-again. They say they believe. In what? A god who is too weak to protect His word and plan from humanity's influence? Essentially, yes. So when your version of God is skewed? And you are repeatedly shown precisely where its skewed, and still insist upon believing in a god who is no God---because a man says so? God says He IS to be worshiped in spirit and in TRUTH. Not as someone to be appeased, or as a false god. Can you argue against that? If so, you argue against God. Not me. Go right ahead and try.

This post is not a reply to Deadworm's post, doesn't particularly relate to the Wilcox sermon, doesn't reply to the concept of grace (LDS or mainstream Christian), and is mis-representative of LDS beliefs.

 

[Ironhold]

First of all, Mormons are taught to believe they must complete a laundry list of tasks in order to meet the goal of godhood.

The bulk of the so-called "laundry list" consists of things like "be baptized", things that most Christians agree on.

If the greatest Christian who ever walked this earth is not LDS (even if it was you) before they die, they can never complete this list, and therefore can never attain Mormon godhood.

This is false.

A person's individual circumstances will be considered, and those things which went undone in life can be done vicariously.

Mormonism also does not teach the need to be born-again.

This is also false.

A person has to go through the same process of faith, belief, repentance, and baptism as in many other mainline Christian denominations.

 

[tickingclocker]

This post is not a reply to Deadworm's post, doesn't particularly relate to the Wilcox sermon, doesn't reply to the concept of grace (LDS or mainstream Christian), and is mis-representative of LDS beliefs.

Well, then, don't think you can reply to a post made to him when he asked me an off-topic question, then seek to chastise me alone for it and not him as well.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Well, then, don't think you can reply to a post made to him when he asked me an off-topic question, then seek to chastise me alone for it and not him as well.

Deadworm's topic was about what you view as necessary for salvation (100% on topic) and what LDS believe in necessary for salvation (100% on topic), particularly in relation to 2 Ne 25:23 (100% on topic).

 

[Deadworm]

"tickingclocker: "Who said I haven't watched this video you keep suggesting everyone watch? Not me. This is not the only forum where this particular video content has come up. You assume WAY too much, sir, in more ways than just one. "

Are you trying to deceive me into believing that you just might have watched the video when in fact you haven't? The video refutes much of your anti-Mormon screed. So I have to assume that you either haven't viewed it or didn't understand it. I'm hoping these comments will provoke you into doing the right thing and showing respect to Mormon sisters and brothers in Christ by WATCHING AND COMMENTING ON IT IN DETAIL to show cause why you haven't distorted what we share in common with them.

btw, as a professor I was sometimes sent to cultic centers to defend orthodox Christianity and even retrieve cult members back to their former faith. So don't think of me as an cowardly appeaser. In the case of Mormons, my personal exposure to them and my further study of their beliefs has convinced me that they can be as mature Christians as any evangelicals.

Two years ago, our church and the Catholics agreed to promote a Mormon presentation of their view of Scripture and the Gospel. In response, our local Mormon church volunteered to come to my church for a dialogue on objections to their faith. My goal was to create a dialogue leading to the acceptance of Mormons into our local ministerial Association. I'm a natural debater and could make such a presentation for most denominations. But after careful consideration, I abandoned the idea because too many Christians who would be attracted to such a dialogue would not listen lovingly and respectfully because they just can't learn to disagree agreeably.

 

[tickingclocker]

The bulk of the so-called "laundry list" consists of things like "be baptized", things that most Christians agree on.



This is false.

A person's individual circumstances will be considered, and those things which went undone in life can be done vicariously.



This is also false.

A person has to go through the same process of faith, belief, repentance, and baptism as in many other mainline Christian denominations.

No, not really. Being baptized is probably the only item on the LDS laundry list we most likely might agree on--or not. Not "things most Christians agree on". Mormonism's ideas of "things" don't align with Christianity's ideas of biblical thought. At least when more closely examined than many Mormons advise, that is.

"Vicariously", huh? Is there such an animal in God's heavenly kingdom? Hmm... will have to look that one up. I've never come across such a thing in my bible study travels. Maybe if you pointed out where you discovered such a concept in the bible, it might help speed up my search? Thanks.

No, not really. Mormonism does not teach Mormons are made "New Creations" at the point of repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, otherwise known as salvation. Unlike Christians who do consider this state as being "born-again" at that moment. Mormons salvation is more a gradual process TO "becoming" a New Creation, toward some far off point near the end of their lives. That's when Jesus "'takes over' after all they can do". So no, that's not exactly biblically defined "born-again-ness", no. By far. I've always said Mormons don't understand the concept of "New Creation" in Christ. Your post proves it true, yet again.

You also skipped over addressing the label of "LDS" being a requirement for all the "bennies". I noticed that. Did you?

 

[Ironhold]

You also skipped over addressing the label of "LDS" being a requirement for all the "bennies". I noticed that. Did you?

Maybe because we've already established that the label is not a requirement?

As far as vicarious practices go - http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/temples/baptism_ancient_nibley.html . Hugh Nibley's research into the matter found that it was, in fact, a known practice in early Christianity.

 

[tickingclocker]

"tickingclocker: "Who said I haven't watched this video you keep suggesting everyone watch? Not me. This is not the only forum where this particular video content has come up. You assume WAY too much, sir, in more ways than just one. "

Are you trying to deceive me into believing that you just might have watched the video when in fact you haven't? The video refutes much of your anti-Mormon screed. So I have to assume that you either haven't viewed it or didn't understand it. I'm hoping these comments will provoke you into doing the right thing and showing respect to Mormon sisters and brothers in Christ by WATCHING AND COMMENTING ON IT IN DETAIL to show cause why you haven't distorted what we share in common with them.

btw, as a professor I was sometimes sent to cultic centers to defend orthodox Christianity and even retrieve cult members back to their former faith. So don't think of me as an cowardly appeaser. In the case of Mormons, my personal exposure to them and my further study of their beliefs has convinced me that they can be as mature Christians as any evangelicals.

Two years ago, our church and the Catholics agreed to promote a Mormon presentation of their view of Scripture and the Gospel. In response, our local Mormon church volunteered to come to my church for a dialogue on objections to their faith. My goal was to create a dialogue leading to the acceptance of Mormons into our local ministerial Association. I'm a natural debater and could make such a presentation for most denominations. But after careful consideration, I abandoned the idea because too many Christians who would be attracted to such a dialogue would not listen lovingly and respectfully because they just can't learn to disagree agreeably.

Has it occurred to you yet that I didn't happen to agree with the content of the video? Does that offend you? Why is it I therefore must be a liar, or else I must be completely dense? Because assuming those things assuage your ego? I don't know. You tell me.

Mormons are not my brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ any more than mormonism is part of biblical Christianity. You are quite free to consider them as such. I do not. I have my own reasons why, too. I fully respect their right to their religious views. However, I in no way have any such respect for mormonism's unbiblical religious views, and am not ashamed to say so, nor be intimidated to say otherwise. I see nothing in common between Christianity and mormonism, other than they are both spiritual viewpoints. If you do, then you must answer to God for it. Not me. Consider that my response to your video. Why would I change it now?

 

[tickingclocker]

Maybe because we've already established that the label is not a requirement?

As far as vicarious practices go - http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/temples/baptism_ancient_nibley.html . Hugh Nibley's research into the matter found that it was, in fact, a known practice in early Christianity.

Nibley is not in the bible. I asked for biblical references, not LDS apologists viewpoints.

What is GOD'S viewpoint? If you cannot provide them, obviously either you are lying, or, it is an imaginary concept not based upon GOD's viewpoint.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Has it occurred to you yet that I didn't happen to agree with the content of the video?

Whether or not you like it is irrelevant. It is the actual LDS perspective.

Mormons are not my brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ any more than mormonism is part of biblical Christianity.

You are free to think that. But please be honest in what LDS actually believe, whether or not you like those beliefs.

I see nothing in common between Christianity and mormonism,

You are incorrect in this assessment, but are free to believe it.

 

[Rescued One]

I watched the video. It contradicts statements made by many general authorities and I have shown that repeatedly.

 

[Rescued One]

Whether or not you like it is irrelevant. It is the actual LDS perspective.

Do the General Authorities teach false doctrine?

 

[tickingclocker]

Whether or not you like it is irrelevant. It is the actual LDS perspective.


You are free to think that. But please be honest in what LDS actually believe, whether or not you like those beliefs.


You are incorrect in this assessment, but are free to believe it.

I didn't say I "liked or disliked" the content, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject. I disagreed with its conclusion. Please do not skew my words your way. It's dishonest.

Again, I never said there is a need to either "like or dislike" LDS beliefs. What mormonism teaches (or fails to), what its canon actually says (and in which book), and even what individual Mormons believe about all that can at times be diametrically opposed. It's pretty hard to grasp exactly what mormonism's beliefs are when such things occur with regularity. It's also quite frustrating when this happens. It's like attempting to tie silk threads with gluey fingers. Impossible to grasp. Especially when viewing it through a biblical Christian perspective. There's a lot of "HUH??!!" going on.

I am incorrect in YOUR viewpoint of my assessment of mormonism and Christianity not having anything in common. Please be honest.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I didn't say I "liked or disliked" the content, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject. I disagreed with its conclusion.

Your disagreement with LDS doctrine is irrelevant.

It's like attempting to tie silk threads with gluey fingers. Impossible to grasp.

If you do not understand it, it is best to not try to explain something you do not understand. (Not trying to sound patronizing here, sorry if it sounds that way-- I can't figure out better phrasing).

 

[Ironhold]

Nibley is not in the bible. I asked for biblical references, not LDS apologists viewpoints.

I just said "He has shown that it was a known practice in Early Christianity."

Or do you not believe that?

 

[tickingclocker]

I just said "He has shown that it was a known practice in Early Christianity."

Or do you not believe that?

A "known practice in early Christianity" is not God's Word. Show me the biblical facts or step aside.

 

[Rescued One]

"And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance…(Alma 22:14)."

Part of the many problems with Mormonism are the numerous contradictions.

There are several ways the Lord has set for us to learn obedience, so we may prove ourselves and merit His approval and blessings here and eternal glory with Him in the worlds to come.
Delbert L. Stapley, The Blessings of Righteous Obedience, General Conference, October 1977

• “To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey the commandments of God. The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it”
  
  
• Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 332

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

According to Mormonism, man has to merit every single blessing.

Another contradiction:
Alma 34
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

D&C 130
3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

 

[tickingclocker]

Your disagreement with LDS doctrine is irrelevant.


If you do not understand it, it is best to not try to explain something you do not understand. (Not trying to sound patronizing here, sorry if it sounds that way-- I can't figure out better phrasing).

Its not irrelevant to me, nor is it to those who agree with my conclusion. To "you" its irrelevant. I accept that, not expecting anything else.

I suggest the same for yourself. If you don't understand Christian concepts, its best to not try explaining them or dismiss them outright from your mind as "irrelevant". Doing either would be a disservice to God as well as to yourself. No, you don't sound patronizing. However, I hope you take your own advice to me to heart in the future. Can you do that? I hope so.

If I see you attempting to, I will call you on it. Never point fingers you may someday have to confront in your own face.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Its not irrelevant to me, nor is it to those who agree with my conclusion. To "you" its irrelevant. I accept that, not expecting anything else.

Whether or not you agree with my or is anyone else's belief IS irrelevant in regard that it doesn't change what they are, or you duty to be honest about what they are.

I suggest the same for yourself. If you don't understand Christian concepts, its best to not try explaining them or dismiss them outright from your mind as "irrelevant".

Post numbers where I have supposedly done this?

 

[tickingclocker]

Whether or not you agree with my or is anyone else's belief IS irrelevant in regard that it doesn't change what they are, or you duty to be honest about what they are.


Post numbers where I have supposedly done this?

How can it be my duty to be "honest" in what they are when according to you I don't understand them? For instance, I believe your articles of faith state mormonism takes the stand that God's Word "might" be corrupted, despite it failing to show where or even how that could possibly be true, it being divine. Yet I'm the one.... not understanding what it plainly states? What else do I need to "understand" in order to accept the fact that mormonism sets JS's word above a holy God's Word, who also has divine truthful statements of His own claiming that His word is divine, and the divine cannot be corrupted.... being divine? One of those "HUH???" moments in mormonism.

Your confusion over the Christian concept of a Triune God is one primary instance. You fail to comprehend it, therefore you don't accept it, yet you attempt to discredit something you don't understand. No need for numbers, Jane. You've said it often enough in many posts.