“Once for All”

[WordSword]

I'm not sure that last sentence is true.

It parallels with 1Jo 5:13!

 

[Doug Brents]

There are two types of those who claim to be saved. Those who are genuinely saved, and those who are not genuinely saved. The truth about rebirth is that if it has occurred, it's permanent. Thus nobody can claim to believe and then latter claim to disbelieve. We either believe or we don't, and it eventually reveals itself whether of the two it will be. God doesn't allow anyone to continue in ignorance of whether or not you are truly saved, He will show us the truth.

"For if God spared not the natural branches (God does not spare anyone who eventually manifest unbelief), take heed lest he also spare not thee" (this refers to Gentiles who eventually demonstrate unbelief).

Many believe that if you later turn back to unbelief then your original belief was not real, and so you were never saved in the first place. But nothing could be further from the truth. A person is not grafted into the Tree by God unless they are truly saved. And being cut off from the tree does not indicate failure to have truly believed in the first place, but a falling from salvation. God is not such an incompetent "gardener" as all that.

Straying from the truth is not a definitive of unbelief. One can stray into a distraction or a temporary sinful habit. But those who are truly reborn will eventually choose God's way of everything (Phl 2:13).

That is all true, but the passage here is clear: if a person is in Christ and strays from the truth but is not brought back, then their destination is condemnation.

"If they shall fall away" is a hypothetical or a hyperbolic expression to stress the point that one can never fall away form the truth. You need be saved only once; and then never need saved again.

There are three tenses of salvation: Jesus saved us all 2000 years ago, but that salvation is not applied to us until we obey the Gospel (past). We are saved immediately upon baptism into Christ (present). And we will be judged righteous at the final Judgment (future). The past salvation occurred only once, and is available for all people of all times. The future salvation will occur only once, and every soul ever created will participate in that Judgement. But the present salvation is an ongoing, continual, thing. As 1 John 1:7 says, if we walk in the light continually, then the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin as we commit it. But if we do not walk in the Light (continually in a state of repentance), then we will not be continually cleansed, and if we die could spend eternity in Hell.

 

[WordSword]

Many believe that if you later turn back to unbelief then your original belief was not real, and so you were never saved in the first place.

To me, belief is accepting the truth that the Lord Jesus is the Savior. Then God grants eternal life with Himself and the Lord Jesus, all though the Holy Spirit. When one receives eternal life--it's eternal, permanent. If one truly believes, God knows, grants eternal life and knows He will never have to take it back, which is an oxymoron. If eternal life is taken back, it's wasn't eternal. Makes no sense.; unless one can truly believe but not receive eternal life!

But nothing could be further from the truth. A person is not grafted into the Tree by God unless they are truly saved. And being cut off from the tree does not indicate failure to have truly believed in the first place, but a falling from salvation. God is not such an incompetent "gardener" as all that.

One falling from the truth means they are falling from the doctrine of salvation, but not from salvation, just from the doctrine; because they haven't truly received it yet, but instead left or fell away from it. They didn't go all the way with God, or they would be permanently saved!

 

[Doug Brents]

To me, belief is accepting the truth that the Lord Jesus is the Savior. Then God grants eternal life with Himself and the Lord Jesus, all though the Holy Spirit. When one receives eternal life--it's eternal, permanent. If one truly believes, God knows, grants eternal life and knows He will never have to take it back, which is an oxymoron. If eternal life is taken back, it's wasn't eternal. Makes no sense.; unless one can truly believe but not receive eternal life!

And what you think is all important? No, it is what Scripture SAYS that is important, not what you or I believe about what it says.

Eternal life is eternal. But we do not receive it until Judgement. Our possession of it is not eternal until then. As long as we are in this life, we can still forfeit our ability to receive it.

One falling from the truth means they are falling from the doctrine of salvation, but not from salvation, just from the doctrine; because they haven't truly received it yet, but instead left or fell away from it. They didn't go all the way with God, or they would be permanently saved!

So you are saying that a person can be grafted into Christ by God, but not really be part of Christ? You think God is such a poor "gardener" that He would botch His grafting of us into Christ so badly?

 

[B Griffin]

It parallels with 1Jo 5:13!

I see your point. Thanks.

 

[WordSword]

it is what Scripture SAYS that is important, not what you or I believe about what it says.

It's obvious that we have different beliefs on these issues, and thankfully they are not essential doctrine for being saved, but for spiritual growth!

 

[B Griffin]

And what you think is all important? No, it is what Scripture SAYS that is important, not what you or I believe about what it says.

Eternal life is eternal. But we do not receive it until Judgement. Our possession of it is not eternal until then. As long as we are in this life, we can still forfeit our ability to receive it.

So you are saying that a person can be grafted into Christ by God, but not really be part of Christ? You think God is such a poor "gardener" that He would botch His grafting of us into Christ so badly?

Using Romans 11 (which discusses the temporary fall of the Jews because of unbelief and the potential fall of the Gentiles if we follow in their footsteps) as a scriptural proof that individual people can lose their salvation through unbelief is simply wrong in many ways.

The context doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (Ro 11:13–15)​

The fact that those of us who put our trust in Christ currently possess eternal life doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

11 ...God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 Jn 5:11–12)​

The fact that Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:23–25)​

The fact that God Himself is the One keeping us secure doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” (Jn 10:25–30)​

The fact that Jesus coming to live in us makes new creatures that are perfectly right with Him doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

"...put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness." (Eph 4:24)​

And (not "finally" because there are many other reasons), the fact that Jesus coming to live in us makes each one of us first generation offspring of the living God with a guaranteed eternal inheritance doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (Ro 8:14–17)​

Why is the doctrine of eternal security under attack? Because the devil does not want people to place all their hope in Christ.

 

[B Griffin]

It's obvious that we have different beliefs on these issues, and thankfully they are not essential doctrine for being saved, but for spiritual growth!

This is true on one hand because the devil can't snatch anyone out of God's hand, but there is a risk for the lost that this foothold of self-reliance for salvation may prevent them from resting all their hope in Christ.

 

[WordSword]

Using Romans 11 (which discusses the temporary fall of the Jews because of unbelief and the potential fall of the Gentiles if we follow in their footsteps) as a scriptural proof that individual people can lose their salvation through unbelief is simply wrong in many ways.

Hi, and appreciate your replies! It's my understanding that the unbelief of the Jews caused them to perish; and it's the same with unbelieving Gentiles.

 

[WordSword]

The context doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

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The fact that those of us who put our trust in Christ currently possess eternal life doesn't support it.

The fact that Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us doesn't support it.

The fact that God Himself is the One keeping us secure doesn't support it.

The fact that Jesus coming to live in us makes new creatures that are perfectly right with Him doesn't support it.

Not sure what you mean by the "doesn't support it."

 

[Doug Brents]

Using Romans 11 (which discusses the temporary fall of the Jews because of unbelief and the potential fall of the Gentiles if we follow in their footsteps) as a scriptural proof that individual people can lose their salvation through unbelief is simply wrong in many ways.

The context doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (Ro 11:13–15)​

How does this context impact the discussion in either direction? God does not graft bunches of branches into the tree. He grafts branches individually, and individually He cuts them off. If an individual believes, he is grafted in. And if an individual does not believe, he is cut off. (even if he previously believed).

The fact that those of us who put our trust in Christ currently possess eternal life doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

11 ...God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 Jn 5:11–12)​

And if you give up the Son, then you no longer have the Son, and so you no longer have eternal life.

The fact that Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:23–25)​

The fact that His priesthood is unchanging is irrelevant to this discussion. Yes, He always lives to make intercession for us, but if we cease to come to God through Him, then we cease to receive His intercession.

The fact that God Himself is the One keeping us secure doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” (Jn 10:25–30)​

Absolutely, there is none that can snatch us out of His hand. But we can walk out on our own. He will come searching for us, sure, but we do not have to return if we choose to continue to live in unrepentant sin.

The fact that Jesus coming to live in us makes new creatures that are perfectly right with Him doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

"...put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness." (Eph 4:24)​

Yes, we must put this man on daily, as we continue to try to walk in the Light. But if we cease walking in the Light, then we cease to be continually cleansed from all unrighteousness, and will again be lost in sin.

And (not "finally" because there are many other reasons), the fact that Jesus coming to live in us makes each one of us first generation offspring of the living God with a guaranteed eternal inheritance doesn't support it. One Scripture of many is this:

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (Ro 8:14–17)​

Why is the doctrine of eternal security under attack? Because the devil does not want people to place all their hope in Christ.

"If indeed we suffer with Him". But if we cease to suffer with Him, and if we cease to live as children of God, then we cease to be His.

It is not the doctrine of eternal security that is under attack. It is the doctrine that says once we have come to Christ and "believed unto salvation" that we can then live any way we choose and still be in Christ.

 

[John Mullally]

The crux of Hebrews 10:10 is the doctrine of eternal security! Hence there is only one type of salvation—eternal salvation (Heb 5:9). Does it seem sensible to consider the oxymoron of receiving eternal salvation, then loosing it? If it’s something that one can lose, it’s not eternal. Eternal has only one meaning—forever.

Saying you can't lose eternal security because its eternal doesn't establish eternal security as being a real thing.

Hebrews 10:10 is worded a little differently in all English translations with all but the NASB ending with the body of Jesus Christ once for all. The NASB appends time, which is hyphenated because its not in the text. It seems like if the writer was trying to make your point (because it is as you say the crux) he would have moved the "for all time" after the "made holy".

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (NIV)​

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What is the "once for all" talking about? Perhaps it is talking about "once for all of us" instead of "once for all time".

1 John 2:2 says that the atoning sacrifice was made for the whole world. As in Moses time only those who looked to the serpent on the pole were healed - so it is with Christ's atonement, only those who look to it in faith are saved.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.​

Scriptural example of some once-saved going Apostate:

The topic in 2 Peter 2 is false prophets harming the church. 2 Peter 2:20-22 depicts many of these false prophets as having at one time "escaped the corruption of the world by knowing Jesus". How does someone "escape the corruption of the world by knowing Jesus" without ever being saved?

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”​

 

[WordSword]

Saying you can't lose eternal security because its eternal doesn't establish eternal security as being a real thing.

Hi, and appreciate your reply! Eternal security is the most important truth of all the spiritual growth truths, making it difficult to discuss and refute, because there is so much more Scripture that supports it, than Scripture that seems to refute it.

The topic in 2 Peter 2 is false prophets harming the church. 2 Peter 2:20-22 depicts many of these false prophets as having at one time "escaped the corruption of the world by knowing Jesus". How does someone "escape the corruption of the world by knowing Jesus" without ever being saved?

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”​

The phrase "escaped the corruption of the world" is in the sense of easing the conscience of evil practices by "knowing the way of righteousness." This doesn't mean one received the way of righteousness, but that one "knew the way," which can lead men into a false sense of innocence by just knowing but not receiving truth. The metaphor of the dog returning to the vomit evinces they were not reborn, or they would have continued "unto the end" (Mat 24:13; 1Jo 2:19).

 

[Doug Brents]

The phrase "escaped the corruption of the world" is in the sense of easing the conscience of evil practices by "knowing the way of righteousness." This doesn't mean one received the way of righteousness, but that one "knew the way," which can lead men into a false sense of innocence by just knowing but not receiving truth. The metaphor of the dog returning to the vomit evinces they were not reborn, or they would have continued "unto the end" (Mat 4:4; 1Jo 2:19).

How is it that one can "have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come," (Heb 6:4-5) and not be actually a part of the family of God (not just THINK that they are)?

How is it that James says, "My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you strays from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that the one who has turned a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20) Does this not say that a person IN THE CHURCH (not just pretending, but actually saved) strays from the truth that person is lost, and headed the death of his soul? And if he is turned back, then he is saved (again) from death, and his sins are again covered?

Is God such a bad gardener that when He grafts a branch into a tree, He does not make it "stick" completely? How then, when Paul says in Rom 11:17-23 that God has grafted each Gentile into the Church (Israel) and they can be cut off again if they do not continue in belief. And that the each Jew was cut off because they did not believe, but can be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief. If someone is grafted in by God, then you can be sure, he is IN. But God says He will cut him back off if he does not continue in belief.

 

[John Mullally]

Hi, and appreciate your reply! Eternal security is the most important truth of all the spiritual growth truths, making it difficult to discuss and refute, because there is so much more Scripture that supports it, than Scripture that seems to refute it.

Thank you for the friendly reply. You are right in that there are a several scriptures that are used to support Eternal Security. But, I don't believe that those scriptures (like Hebrews 10:10) are clearly promoting eternal security. And then there are several scriptures that warn believers against falling away as @Doug Brents points out - why would that be necessary if "Eternal security of the believer" is a real thing?

The phrase "escaped the corruption of the world" is in the sense of easing the conscience of evil practices by "knowing the way of righteousness." This doesn't mean one received the way of righteousness, but that one "knew the way," which can lead men into a false sense of innocence by just knowing but not receiving truth.

At best a false sense of innocence will lead to a false sense of having "escaped the corruption of the world". The passage is not talking about merely having a sense of escaping the corruption of the world.

The metaphor of the dog returning to the vomit evinces they were not reborn, or they would have continued "unto the end" (Mat 24:13; 1Jo 2:19).

This is a form of begging the question (Begging the question - Wikipedia). In the underlined portion (above) you assume what you are arguing for (ie. Eternal security) by saying that the saved will continue till the end.

 

[WordSword]

How is it that one can "have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come," (Heb 6:4-5) and not be actually a part of the family of God (not just THINK that they are)?

Hi, and appreciate the reply! The theme of these passages is, "To renew them again unto repentance." It describes the impossibility of being saved twice. It could be said, "It is impossible to fall away and be renewed again unto repentance;" meaning that there was no repentance in the first place--to renew again. I believe these passages demonstrate the impossibility of being unsaved again, due to the truth that one cannot be saved twice. Once one is truly saved one will remain saved. After all, these passages are only a hypothesis, based on the theory that "if they fall away." There is no actual language that demonstrates anyone actually fell away, only "if they fall away."

Albert Barnes: "It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away. He makes a statement of what would occur on the supposition that such a thing should happen - but a statement may be made of what would occur on the supposition that a certain thing should take place, and yet it be morally certain that the event never would happen. It would be easy to suppose what would happen if the sun should cease to rise, and still there be entire certainty that such an event never would occur.

 

[WordSword]

Thank you for the friendly reply. You are right in that there are a several scriptures that are used to support Eternal Security. But, I don't believe that those scriptures (like Hebrews 10:10) are clearly promoting eternal security.

It's my understanding the phrase "once for all" means saved for all time!

 

[Doug Brents]

It's my understanding the phrase "once for all" means saved for all time!

That would be "once and for all". But "once for all" means just that, 'Jesus died once for all mankind'.

 

[WordSword]

That would be "once and for all". But "once for all" means just that, 'Jesus died once for all mankind'.

Yes, I stand corrected. Thanks for catching me! Like the way you rephrased it to show me.

Of course, we know that the word "once" means it never needs repeated, like "the beliefs of the Socinian notion of Christ's continual offering Himself in heaven; and confutes the error of the Popish mass, concerning the offering of Christ's body in it" (John Gill). Catholicism teaches that the wafer and the cup during Communion literally becomes the Blood and Body of Christ; thus sacrificing Himself over and over.

The Lutheran teaching of Communion is almost identical, in that the Body and Blood of Christ accompanies or is literally with the two elements (Consubstantiation).

I think one of the worst doctrines of the RC is that which concerns the term "Immaculate Conception," which the dictionary defines as the Roman Catholic teaching that Mary was born without the taint of sin (Ro 3:23).

Hope I wasn't too winded on this reply! God bless!!