Does the Bible Teach Blind Obedience to the State?

Tolkien R.R.J · Friday at 6:34 AM

My latest article in The Libertarian Christian Institute provides many examples of Biblical prophets, leaders, warriors, and men and women inspired by God to rebel or overthrow tyrants. It shows that Jesus celebrated such acts. A response is also given to the common saying of docile Christians to argue for blind obedience, that we are to "Render unto Ceaser."

Does the Bible Teach Blind Obedience to the State? By Jeb Smith

Does the Bible Teach Blind Obedience to the State? | Libertarian Christian Institute

The simple answer to the question is No, of course not. And few would argue the point at all. Perhaps then the better question is To what extent does the

libertarianchristians.com

BobRyan · Friday at 7:09 AM

Rom 13 calls for obedience to the laws of the State.

But if such laws call for genocide , murder, worship of false gods (Dan 3), violating God's commandments (Rev 13) etc. Then we cannot obey those laws.

John G. · Friday at 7:29 AM

We must remember that our fight is not against flesh and blood but against wicked spiritual forces (Ephesians 6:12).
If we see our government under the influence of such wicked forces, we must choose to obey God rather than blindly accept ungodly man-made laws.

Tolkien R.R.J · Sunday at 8:15 PM

BobRyan said:
Rom 13 calls for obedience to the laws of the State.

But if such laws call for genocide , murder, worship of false gods (Dan 3), violating God's commandments (Rev 13) etc. Then we cannot obey those laws.

Many would differ

-The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper Resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government- Matthew J Trewhella
-Romans 13 The True Meaning of Submission-Timothy and Chuck Baldwin
-Romans 13 and the Christian Duty to Oppose Wicked Rulers, Gordon Runyan
-The Romans 13 Template For Biblical Dominion Ted R. Weiland
-Biblical Law vs. The United States Constitution Ted R. Weiland
-Law and Kingdom Their Relevance Under The New Covenant Ted R. Weiland

BobRyan · Sunday at 9:31 PM

Tolkien R.R.J said:
Many would differ

-The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper Resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government- Matthew J Trewhella
-Romans 13 The True Meaning of Submission-Timothy and Chuck Baldwin
-Romans 13 and the Christian Duty to Oppose Wicked Rulers, Gordon Runyan
-The Romans 13 Template For Biblical Dominion Ted R. Weiland
-Biblical Law vs. The United States Constitution Ted R. Weiland
-Law and Kingdom Their Relevance Under The New Covenant Ted R. Weiland

So then - let's look at Rom 13 --

Rom 13:
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Now lets keep in mind that the Christians were living under the tyranny of Rome - one of the worst governments in human history.

Rome would kill Paul, kill Peter, kill Christ and persecute Christians. Domitian tried to kill the apostle John

AI says this about that issue
"The Pagan Roman Empire could be considered harsh and tyrannical at times, especially under certain emperors who were known for brutality and paranoia. While the empire also experienced periods of stability and good governance, figures like Nero, Domitian, and Caligula are remembered for their tyrannical reigns"

So then - even in the case of one of the worst of governing empires - Rom 13 was penned.

Tolkien R.R.J · 2025-04-28T06:28:57-0500

BobRyan said:
So then - let's look at Rom 13 --

Rom 13:
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Now lets keep in mind that the Christians were living under the tyranny of Rome - one of the worst governments in human history.

Rome would kill Paul, kill Peter, kill Christ and persecute Christians. Domitian tried to kill the apostle John

AI says this about that issue
"The Pagan Roman Empire could be considered harsh and tyrannical at times, especially under certain emperors who were known for brutality and paranoia. While the empire also experienced periods of stability and good governance, figures like Nero, Domitian, and Caligula are remembered for their tyrannical reigns"

So then - even in the case of one of the worst of governing empires - Rom 13 was penned.

Indeed, this is the evangelical's argument, novel to Christian history, emerging only in the last couple of centuries after states began to educate their people and the church struck a deal with the secular state!

If you are interested in understanding what the text has meant to Christians since Christ, and when the Church was free, see those books I cited. Those books will break it down passage by passage and understand it within the context of the rest of Gods word. Perhaps, i can write an article on it but since others have handled it so well, you really should see those books.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-04-28T07:15:32-0500

Tolkien R.R.J said:
My latest article in The Libertarian Christian Institute provides many examples of Biblical prophets, leaders, warriors, and men and women inspired by God to rebel or overthrow tyrants. It shows that Jesus celebrated such acts. A response is also given to the common saying of docile Christians to argue for blind obedience, that we are to "Render unto Ceaser."

Does the Bible Teach Blind Obedience to the State? By Jeb Smith

Does the Bible Teach Blind Obedience to the State? | Libertarian Christian Institute

The simple answer to the question is No, of course not. And few would argue the point at all. Perhaps then the better question is To what extent does the

libertarianchristians.com

Does the Bible teach utter disobedience to the State? The answer is "no." Neither does it teach revenge or revolutions, coups or uprisings at the hands of Christians, either.

But somehow, there seems to be a number of folks who think the Bible does teach this. How sad.

BobRyan · 2025-04-28T07:57:39-0500

BobRyan said:
So then - let's look at Rom 13 --

Rom 13:
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Now lets keep in mind that the Christians were living under the tyranny of Rome - one of the worst governments in human history.

Rome would kill Paul, kill Peter, kill Christ and persecute Christians. Domitian tried to kill the apostle John

AI says this about that issue
"The Pagan Roman Empire could be considered harsh and tyrannical at times, especially under certain emperors who were known for brutality and paranoia. While the empire also experienced periods of stability and good governance, figures like Nero, Domitian, and Caligula are remembered for their tyrannical reigns"

So then - even in the case of one of the worst of governing empires - Rom 13 was penned.

Tolkien R.R.J said:
Indeed, this is the evangelical's argument, novel to Christian history

I see it as the Bible argument and Rom 13 taken in context informs us that even under the most/worst tyrannical government - Paul's Rom 13 teaching applied.

I see that as "irrefutable". The only options are either "Paul was wrong" or "Rome was not bad at all"

Tolkien R.R.J said:
, emerging only in the last couple of centuries after states began to educate their people

Rom 13 emerged 2000 years ago. Long before USA even existed.

Tolkien R.R.J said:
and the church struck a deal with the secular state!

If you are interested in understanding what the text has meant to Christians since Christ

I am a Christian that has lived at some point since Christ was on Earth -- I can read Rom 13.

Tolkien R.R.J said:
, and when the Church was free, see those books I cited. Those books will break it down passage by passage and understand it within the context of the rest of Gods word. Perhaps, i can write an article on it but since others have handled it so well, you really should see those books.

Here is the AI summation of Protestant Reformers and Rom 13

" Protestant Reformers generally interpreted Romans 13 as emphasizing Christian obedience to earthly authorities, recognizing that such authorities are ultimately ordained by God. However, they also acknowledged exceptions, such as when authorities demand actions contrary to God's will or when they engage in tyranny. The Reformers' understanding of Romans 13 was crucial in shaping their political and social views, influencing their relationship with the state and their approach to issues of justice. "

In America - compliance with the laws of the state -- includes exercising the right to vote, and we can "vote the bums out of office" as a legal, lawful remedy to problems of the day when we as Christians find the "other party" more in line with Biblical morality.

Tolkien R.R.J · 2025-04-28T09:24:15-0500

2PhiloVoid said:
Does the Bible teach utter disobedience to the State? The answer is "no." Neither does it teach revenge or revolutions, coups or uprisings at the hands of Christians, either.

But somehow, there seems to be a number of folks who think the Bible does teach this. How sad.

Depends on the state! But when men did resists tyranny and stood for Giod souls were won. We have been defanged, made Complient and so our society teaches us to hate God. No wonder so few are saved.

If this makes us sad or not, it does not matter, only what God taught and teaches.

Tolkien R.R.J · 2025-04-28T09:34:30-0500

BobRyan said:
I see it as the Bible argument and Rom 13 taken in context informs us that even under the most/worst tyrannical government - Paul's Rom 13 teaching applied.

I see that as "irrefutable". The only options are either "Paul was wrong" or "Rome was not bad at all"

Rom 13 emerged 2000 years ago. Long before USA even existed.

I am a Christian that has lived at some point since Christ was on Earth -- I can read Rom 13.

Here is the AI summation of Protestant Reformers and Rom 13

" Protestant Reformers generally interpreted Romans 13 as emphasizing Christian obedience to earthly authorities, recognizing that such authorities are ultimately ordained by God. However, they also acknowledged exceptions, such as when authorities demand actions contrary to God's will or when they engage in tyranny. The Reformers' understanding of Romans 13 was crucial in shaping their political and social views, influencing their relationship with the state and their approach to issues of justice. "

In America - compliance with the laws of the state -- includes exercising the right to vote, and we can "vote the bums out of office" as a legal, lawful remedy to problems of the day when we as Christians find the "other party" more in line with Biblical morality.

I am certain that you are aware of the interpretations! That is why we have so many denominations. Calvinists interpret scripture in a way no others do, yet they are convinced that they are correct etc

I am saying the early reformers, for centuries (and the historic church until that time, the vast majority- as well as the founders of America, "rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God") interpreted the text in a different manner. It was not until modern secular state education that the church made a deal with the devil and began to teach its people to understand Romans 13 in this manner. It has historically been interpreted within the framework and understanding of the rest of the Bible and Romans.

I have given you plenty of books that go through the text and demonstrate why your modern interpretation does not hold up, how you are applying things to the text without knowing, and things the original author did not mean to say. They also miss Paul's context.

Material is out there for free. Watch debates, read articles, read books. You will be challenged, and I think that is why you are choosing not to do so. It is very easy to be compliant, not to be disagreeable, to be tame. Less trouble!

Tolkien R.R.J · 2025-04-28T09:39:06-0500

BobRyan said:
In America - compliance with the laws of the state -- includes exercising the right to vote, and we can "vote the bums out of office" as a legal, lawful remedy to problems of the day when we as Christians find the "other party" more in line with Biblical morality.

I just wanted to point out just how much our thinking is blindly accepting what the state tells us. Because you actually believe the mantra you wrote above!

So as a Christian, I can remove from office any non Christian I don't like correct? Why does it not work? I have tried this at every level for many elections, please do tell me what i am doing wrong! How do i cast this magical vote that places the person I desire in power. And if it is only your vote this applies to, please stop as you are destroying my society and placing secular tyrants over me.
Lysander Spooner correctly observed:

[Under Democracy], a man finds himself environed by a government that he cannot resist; a government that forces him to pay money, render service, and forego the exercise of many of his natural rights, under peril of weighty punishments. He sees, too, that other men practice this tyranny over him by the use of the ballot. He sees further that, if he will but use the ballot himself, he has some chance of relieving himself from this tyranny of others, by subjecting them to his own. In short, he finds himself, without his consent, so situated that, if he use the ballot, he may become a master; if he does not use it, he must become a slave. And he has no other alternative than these two.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-04-28T10:13:51-0500

Tolkien R.R.J said:
Depends on the state! But when men did resists tyranny and stood for Giod souls were won. We have been defanged, made Complient and so our society teaches us to hate God. No wonder so few are saved.

If this makes us sad or not, it does not matter, only what God taught and teaches.

More specifically in our case would be "only what Jesus taught and teaches".... and I don't see that Jesus (or Peter or Paul) ever taught that Christians were to take up the carnal sword against their own state if that state just so happens to go awol against God. And I think we see fairly readily that Christians of the first 3 centuries followed this understanding when living under the Roman hegemony.

Clare73 · 2025-04-28T13:20:11-0500

Tolkien R.R.J said:
I just wanted to point out just how much our thinking is blindly accepting what the state tells us. Because you actually believe the mantra you wrote above!

So as a Christian, I can remove from office any non Christian I don't like correct? Why does it not work? I have tried this at every level for many elections, please do tell me what i am doing wrong! How do i cast this magical vote that places the person I desire in power. And if it is only your vote this applies to, please stop as you are destroying my society and placing secular tyrants over me.
Lysander Spooner correctly observed:

[Under Democracy], a man finds himself environed by a government that he cannot resist; a government that forces him to pay money, render service, and forego the exercise of many of his natural rights, under peril of weighty punishments. He sees, too, that other men practice this tyranny over him by the use of the ballot. He sees further that, if he will but use the ballot himself, he has some chance of relieving himself from this tyranny of others, by subjecting them to his own. In short, he finds himself, without his consent, so situated that, if he use the ballot, he may become a master; if he does not use it, he must become a slave. And he has no other alternative than these two.

There is a third alternative-- no ballot and anarchy.

A sinful world has its limitations.

Tolkien R.R.J · 2025-04-28T13:38:39-0500

Clare73 said:
There is a third alternative-- no ballot and anarchy.

A sinful world has its limitations.

Amen! you might enjoy this

Smith: Why I elect not to vote - Vermont Daily Chronicle

As a former liberal, conservative, and libertarian and, for years, I am happy to say that I have now freed myself from politics and voting.

vermontdailychronicle.com

BobRyan · 2025-04-29T17:59:47-0500

Tolkien R.R.J said:
I am certain that you are aware of the interpretations! That is why we have so many denominations.

If you object to my NASB reading of Rom 13 - you are free to state why it is wrong.

so far you are not addressing a single point in this quote of Rom 13 and my comments.

Rom 13:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Now lets keep in mind that the Christians were living under the tyranny of Rome - one of the worst governments in human history.

Rome would kill Paul, kill Peter, kill Christ and persecute Christians. Domitian tried to kill the apostle John

AI says this about that issue

"The Pagan Roman Empire could be considered harsh and tyrannical at times, especially under certain emperors who were known for brutality and paranoia. While the empire also experienced periods of stability and good governance, figures like Nero, Domitian, and Caligula are remembered for their tyrannical reigns"

So then - even in the case of one of the worst of governing empires - Rom 13 was penned.

Tolkien R.R.J said:
Calvinists interpret scripture in a way no others do

indeed - I find that they do at times have novel interpretations.

Tolkien R.R.J said:
I am saying the early reformers, for centuries (and the historic church until that time, the vast majority- as well as the founders of America, "rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God") interpreted the text in a different manner.

no doubt many ideas exist and some even propose reasons why the straightforward reading of Rom 13 should not be accepted.

But even so - you have not addressed a single point raise by that quote of Rom 13.

Tolkien R.R.J · 2025-04-29T21:17:17-0500

BobRyan said:
If you object to my NASB reading of Rom 13 - you are free to state why it is wrong.

so far you are not addressing a single point in this quote of Rom 13 and my comments.

Rom 13:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Now lets keep in mind that the Christians were living under the tyranny of Rome - one of the worst governments in human history.

Rome would kill Paul, kill Peter, kill Christ and persecute Christians. Domitian tried to kill the apostle John

AI says this about that issue

"The Pagan Roman Empire could be considered harsh and tyrannical at times, especially under certain emperors who were known for brutality and paranoia. While the empire also experienced periods of stability and good governance, figures like Nero, Domitian, and Caligula are remembered for their tyrannical reigns"

So then - even in the case of one of the worst of governing empires - Rom 13 was penned.

indeed - I find that they do at times have novel interpretations.

no doubt many ideas exist and some even propose reasons why the straightforward reading of Rom 13 should not be accepted.

But even so - you have not addressed a single point raise by that quote of Rom 13.

As stated, entire books are written on Romans 13. I offered you that material from multiple authors who have addressed everything you have stated and much more. I will write an article on this in the future. But it will be sub par compared to those authors i mentioned.

Does the Bible Teach Blind Obedience to the State?

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Surfing the Copernican Wave!

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

​

​

Well-Known Member

Surfing the Copernican Wave!

Blood-bought

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads