The 7th day Sabbath Command Points to the Millennial Kingdom and the Final Kingdom of Heaven.

Bob S · Feb 21, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
Dear Bob S
Jesus has not yet fulfilled all prophecies concerning Him because key events remain in the future. One of the clearest examples is found in Daniel 7:13-14, where the "Son of Man" is given dominion over all nations. While Jesus identified Himself as the Son of Man, this prophecy describes a future moment when He will receive an everlasting kingdom, ruling over all peoples and languages. This has not yet happened, proving that His mission is not yet complete.

I want to apologize for giving you the wrong information. My response to the prophesies should have said there should not be any more prophesies about His coming. Which means Jesus came to fulfill or bring to an end the prophesies about His coming. The same meaning, bring to an end would also apply to the remainder of the thought

JesusFollowerForever said:
The Restoration of Israel
Isaiah 11:10-12 speaks of a time when the Messiah will regather the scattered people of Israel from all the nations of the earth. While Jesus began the spiritual restoration of both Jews and Gentiles, the physical gathering of Israel under His reign has not yet occurred. The prophecy makes it clear that this will happen when He sets up His kingdom. Since this has not yet taken place, it is undeniable that not all prophecies concerning Him have been fulfilled.

The Reign of Peace and Justice
Isaiah 2:2-4 describes a future period when all nations will come to Jerusalem to seek God's law, and there will be no more war. This era of peace and righteousness is directly linked to the Messiah's rule. However, the world today is still full of violence and conflict, proving that this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. If Jesus had already completed everything, we would be living in that promised time of peace, but we are not.

I agree, Jesus has more to do. My question is did Jesus fulfill the prophesies He came to fulfill?

JesusFollowerForever said:
Jesus Prophesied His Own Return
In Matthew 24:30-31, Jesus Himself made it clear that His work was not finished. He spoke of a future time when He would return in power and glory, gathering His elect from all over the earth. This event has not yet taken place, further proving that His mission is ongoing. Many assume that "fulfillment" means everything was completed at His first coming, but Jesus explicitly stated that He would come again to finish what remains.

To conclude, while Jesus fulfilled many prophecies in His first coming, others are clearly awaiting future fulfillment. The establishment of His kingdom, the gathering of Israel, the reign of peace, and His return in glory are all prophetic events that have not yet happened. To claim that He has fulfilled all prophecies is incorrect and ignores the full scope of Scripture

The Role of the Law for Gentiles and the Covenant of the Ten Commandments
The question of whether Gentiles must follow all 613 laws of the Torah is directly addressed in Scripture. Jesus fulfilled the purpose of the Law, particularly the sacrificial and ceremonial aspects, by offering Himself as the perfect sacrifice.

So, you agree Jesus brought to an end the sacrificial and ceremonial "aspect". Sabbaths were ceremonial aspects. Ask any Jew how to describe the feast days and the weekly Sabbath and they will tell you that they are ceremonial laws. Sabbath observers, and some others believe, since they refer to the Ten Commandments as being the "moral law" that the fourth commandment has to be moral the same as the remainder of the commands. That is a misnomer. Sabbath was so important to Israel that God included it in the Ten and not in the book of the Law. It has nothing to do with morality. Morality deals with God, humans and animals. Ceremonies deal with events.

Anyway, when we look at Matt 5:18 this is what it says: 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

It appears you have created a conundrum when you tell us part of the Law has been fulfilled or has ended. He brought to an end the old covenant sacrificial system and ceremonies. You have done this even though Jesus plainly wrote that not the smallest letter............You do this even though you tell us that fulfill does not mean bring to an end and so we are still under the requirements of the Ten Commandments, but not the remainder of the 613 laws. Where is that authority found in scripture? I have quoted verses that tell us the opposite of what you are teaching. 2Cor3:6-11 tells us that the ministry of death, the ten commandments, were temporary and now man is guided by the Holy Spirit. EPh 2: 15 tells us Jesus set aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. Gal 3:19 tells us the Law was until Jesus

JesusFollowerForever said:
This fulfillment does not abolish God's moral standards

I agree. Jesus summed it up in Jn 15:1-14. Love is the great command that covers all aspects moral standards. 1Jn 3:19-24 tells us we belong to the TRUTH if we believe in Jesus and love others as He loves us.

JesusFollowerForever said:
but establishes that the covenantal obligations of the Mosaic Law, given specifically to Israel, do not apply in the same way to Gentiles who come to faith in the Messiah. The Law was given to Israel as a means of distinguishing them as a holy nation, but with the coming of Jesus, a new covenant was established, extending beyond Israel to include all nations. Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into the family of God (Romans 11) and are called to follow the moral principles that reflect God's character, such as love, justice, and holiness, rather than strict adherence to the 613 laws.

Oh! you sound just like the church I came out of. You would fit right in. The tree we Gentiles are grafted into is Jesus Christ. Israel failed so why would anyone say we are grafted into Israel? Jn 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Where in scripture do you find that the character of God is represented by love, justice, and holiness, rather than strict adherence to the 613 laws?.

JesusFollowerForever said:
The Jerusalem Council and Gentile Believers
In Acts 15, the apostles and elders met to decide whether Gentile believers were required to observe the full Mosaic Law,

I believe Jesus decided that in Matt 5 when He said He came to fulfill the Law. Acts 15 merely reiterated what Jesus did at Calvary.

JesusFollowerForever said:
including circumcision and dietary restrictions. Peter, speaking under divine guidance, affirmed that salvation is through faith in Jesus and not through the works of the Law.

Since the Law ended at Calvary if a person believed he could be saved by the works of the Law, he didn't read or understand what Jesus did for all mankind.

JesusFollowerForever said:
He declared that God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith, making no distinction between them and Jews. He warned against placing a yoke on the Gentiles that even Israel could not bear, emphasizing that both Jews and Gentiles are saved by the grace of Jesus. James, the leader of the Jerusalem church, confirmed that Gentiles were not to be burdened with the entire Mosaic system but should abstain from idolatry, sexual immorality, and consuming blood or strangled animals—practices that were particularly offensive in a Jewish context. This decision confirmed that righteousness comes through faith in Jesus rather than adherence to the 613 commandments, marking a clear distinction between the covenant of the Ten Commandments and the temporary laws given through Moses.

A clear distinction? Have you studied 2Cor3:6-11? What do you believe transient means? The 613 includes the Ten Commandments.

JesusFollowerForever said:
The Two Great Commandments and the Ten Commandments
When Jesus summarized the Law with the two greatest commandments—love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself—He was not introducing a new law but affirming the foundation of God's covenant, which is the Ten Commandments. These two principles encapsulate the entire moral law given by God, as they are directly rooted in the Ten Commandments. The first four commandments define what it means to love God: having no other gods, not making idols, not taking His name in vain, and keeping the Sabbath holy. The last six commandments define what it means to love one’s neighbor: honoring parents, not murdering, not committing adultery, not stealing, not bearing false witness, and not coveting. Jesus’ teaching was not a replacement of the Ten Commandments but a confirmation that they express the core of God's will for humanity.

The Ten Commandments have nothing to do with love. The were all about duty to God and duty to their fellow man. We treat our fellow man with respect because of our love for all mankind. If we love others, we will not do harm to them. Jn 15:9-14 explains Jesus love command to us.

JesusFollowerForever said:
The Ten Commandments as the Covenant
Unlike the rest of the laws given to Israel, the Ten Commandments were written by the finger of God Himself on stone tablets, signifying their permanence and divine authority. Exodus 34:28 explicitly states that these commandments are "the words of the covenant," distinguishing them from the other laws written by Moses. When God established His covenant with Israel, He did so through these commandments, given directly to the people at Mount Sinai. They were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant, further emphasizing their unique and central role in the relationship between God and His people.

God also gave the Israelites commands orally. Do you believe they had less value than the Ten? The laws of love are first found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Jesus put a new emphasis telling us we are to love others as He loves us. There is no greater love that to give our life foe someone else, verse 14 of Jn15.

JesusFollowerForever said:
The Additional Laws Given Because of Rebellion
The rest of the Mosaic Law, which included ceremonial, civil, and judicial regulations, was given later as a response to Israel's disobedience and hardness of heart. After breaking the covenant by worshiping the golden calf, Israel showed that they were not ready to fully walk in obedience. Because of this rebellion, additional laws were introduced as a temporary measure to govern them, instruct them, and keep them separate from surrounding pagan nations. These laws included sacrifices, rituals, and other commands that served as a guardian until the coming of the Messiah. Jesus Himself acknowledged this when speaking about divorce, saying that Moses permitted it "because of the hardness of your hearts" (Matthew 19:8), showing that some laws were not part of God’s original intention but were allowances due to human weakness.

The Fulfillment of the Covenant Through Jesus
Jesus did not abolish the Ten Commandments

Correct, it was Israel that did that deed. The whole covenant was based on their observance. They failed and the covenant with its laws ceased to be.

JesusFollowerForever said:
but fulfilled their purpose by restoring the true understanding of their meaning. He emphasized that obedience to God is not just about outward observance but about the condition of the heart. The new covenant does not erase the Ten Commandments but rather writes them on the hearts of believers, as prophesied in Jeremiah 31:33.

Where do you get that it is the Ten Commandments that are written on our hearts? Why would anyone want the ministry of death written on one's heart? We have a New and better Covenant, not a warmed-over covenant that Israel couldn't keep.

JesusFollowerForever said:
The moral law remains, while the additional laws given to Israel as a response to their rebellion are no longer required under the new covenant. Through Jesus, believers—both Jews and Gentiles—are called back to the original covenant, centered on loving God and loving one another, which is the essence of the Ten Commandments.

The two great commandments given by Jesus are a direct reflection of the Ten Commandments, which are the foundation of God’s covenant. These commandments, written by God Himself, remain the standard of righteousness, while the additional laws given through Moses were temporary regulations due to Israel’s disobedience. Under the new covenant, believers are called to follow the moral law of God, not through external regulations, but through a transformed heart that loves God and others as Jesus taught.

The Ten Commandments are a101 course revealing nine aspects of how man can sin. How many ways above and beyond those nine laws do you believe man has to keep if he is refraining from sinning? Paul lists a few that are not included in the Ten Gal3:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those are just the tip of the iceberg.

In Christ, Bob

Bob S · Feb 21, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
Dear Bob S,

Most of your questions that were left unanswered in this reply are, I hope answered in post no 39 of this thread. If I missed anything please let me know

Personally not being part of the SDA church, what I know is from scripture only and nothings else.

You have not read any other source for the information you have presented? In my last post I asked you to tell me where some of your thoughts came from. They coincide with SDA teachings that I have not found in scripture.

JesusFollowerForever said:
From Scripture alone, it is clear that the fourth commandment is a special sign between God and His people, which includes both Jews and Gentiles who follow Him. In Exodus 31:13 (NKJV), God explicitly states:
"Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.’”

This verse confirms that the Sabbath is a unique sign of God's covenant with His people, distinguishing those who are set apart for Him. However, this sign was never meant to be exclusive to Israel alone. In Isaiah 56:6-7, God extends His covenant to the Gentiles who join themselves to Him:
"Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant—even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer."

God gave the Israelites a command to accept Gentiles into their ranks if they so choose. I believe they were to be circumcised and then they would be able to observe the covenant along with the Israelites

JesusFollowerForever said:
In Exodus 16:4, God tested the Israelites with the Sabbath to see if they would obey His instructions:
"Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.’”
This test revealed that obedience to God’s commandments was a critical measure of faithfulness. When some Israelites disobeyed and went out to gather manna on the Sabbath, God rebuked them in Exodus 16:28-29
"And the Lord said to Moses, ‘How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.’”

This demonstrates that the Sabbath was not a minor observance but a key issue of obedience.

I believe this is true.

JesusFollowerForever said:
From these passages, it is evident that obedience to God is key, and the Sabbath serves as a central test of that obedience. It is a sign of commitment to Him, and both Jews and Gentiles who follow Him are called to honor it.

That was true when the old covenant was the document Israel was to adhere. The old covenant has been replaced with the new and better covenant.

JesusFollowerForever said:
The scripture does nor specify what Laws Abraham was given, we can only speculate, the main key in Abraham's story was absolute obedience to God, there are many verses about this here is one;

James 2:21-23 (NKJV)
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God."

This passage clarifies that Abraham's faith was demonstrated through his obedience, showing that faith and action go hand in hand

Abraham was saved the same way we are, by faith. Abraham's works were not law related, The passage means deeds, how he related tp God and others.

JesusFollowerForever said:
Sorry Bob, for my slow responses I am very busy at his time taking care of my step mother, 95 years old living alone and needing quite a bit of help.

Blessings.

Your stepmother has five years on me. She must be very grateful for your devotion to her. Bless you in your good deeds to others
In Christ, Bob

JesusFollowerForever · Feb 22, 2025

Bob S said:
I want to apologize for giving you the wrong information. My response to the prophesies should have said there should not be any more prophesies about His coming. Which means Jesus came to fulfill or bring to an end the prophesies about His coming. The same meaning, bring to an end would also apply to the remainder of the thought

I agree, Jesus has more to do. My question is did Jesus fulfill the prophesies He came to fulfill?

Yes I believe so he fulfilled the prophecies about him for that specific time 2000 years ago.

Bob S said:
So, you agree Jesus brought to an end the sacrificial and ceremonial "aspect". Sabbaths were ceremonial aspects. Ask any Jew how to describe the feast days and the weekly Sabbath and they will tell you that they are ceremonial laws. Sabbath observers, and some others believe, since they refer to the Ten Commandments as being the "moral law" that the fourth commandment has to be moral the same as the remainder of the commands. That is a misnomer. Sabbath was so important to Israel that God included it in the Ten and not in the book of the Law. It has nothing to do with morality. Morality deals with God, humans and animals. Ceremonies deal with events.

The Sabbath is part of God's moral law, which is a set of laws meant to guide human behaviour in accordance with God's will. While the Sabbath itself is not strictly a ceremonial law, it does have a ceremonial aspect due to the regular observance of a day of rest every seventh day. In other words, the Sabbath is deeply rooted in moral principles but also involves a recurring, ritualistic practice. The issue here is that both Jews in the past and today have not followed the Sabbath as originally intended (see Isaiah 58:13-14). Over time, many unnecessary rules and details have been added. For instance, today you can buy appliances like dishwashers, electric ranges, and refrigerators with a "Sabbath mode" designed for observant Jews who believe they are following religious laws. This mode alters the appliance’s functions to prevent automatic actions like turning on or off, beeping, or lighting up—all of which could be seen as violating Sabbath rules. In Sabbath mode, appliances remain in a passive state, allowing for use without triggering activities that are considered "work" on the Sabbath. For example, a refrigerator in Sabbath mode will disable features like the light turning on when the door is opened or the temperature changing automatically. It also silences beeping sounds, such as those from a door left open. People can still open the fridge and use it, but it won't trigger any electrical actions that might be seen as work on the Sabbath. Can you see the absurdity here? Can we even Imagine that GOD would approve of this? This is exactly what Jesus came to clarify. I suggest reading Matthew 23 in full for more insight. I am certain the sabbath os part of a moral law and contain ceremonial aspect due to it's recurrence, the commandment starts with the word "Remember" thus is is very important for GOD that we do so if we do love him.

Bob S said:
Anyway, when we look at Matt 5:18 this is what it says: 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

It appears you have created a conundrum when you tell us part of the Law has been fulfilled or has ended. He brought to an end the old covenant sacrificial system and ceremonies. You have done this even though Jesus plainly wrote that not the smallest letter............You do this even though you tell us that fulfill does not mean bring to an end and so we are still under the requirements of the Ten Commandments, but not the remainder of the 613 laws. Where is that authority found in scripture? I have quoted verses that tell us the opposite of what you are teaching. 2Cor3:6-11 tells us that the ministry of death, the ten commandments, were temporary and now man is guided by the Holy Spirit. EPh 2: 15 tells us Jesus set aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. Gal 3:19 tells us the Law was until Jesus

I wil examine the verse you mention and get back to you this weekend.

Bob S said:
I agree. Jesus summed it up in Jn 15:1-14. Love is the great command that covers all aspects moral standards. 1Jn 3:19-24 tells us we belong to the TRUTH if we believe in Jesus and love others as He loves us.

Oh! you sound just like the church I came out of. You would fit right in. The tree we Gentiles are grafted into is Jesus Christ. Israel failed so why would anyone say we are grafted into Israel? Jn 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Where in scripture do you find that the character of God is represented by love, justice, and holiness, rather than strict adherence to the 613 laws?.

You still do not grasp why that the rest of the law written by Moses was given;
Deu 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, so that it may remain there as a witness against you.

Deu 31:27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you are already rebelling against the LORD while I am still alive, how much more will you rebel after my death!

Deu 31:28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officers so that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.

Deu 31:29 For I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt and turn from the path I have commanded you. And in the days to come, disaster will befall you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD to provoke Him to anger by the work of your hands.”

Jesus summarized the essence of the law in two commands: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:37-40)3. This demonstrates that love is at the core of God's character and His expectations for all His people.

Bob S said:
I believe Jesus decided that in Matt 5 when He said He came to fulfill the Law. Acts 15 merely reiterated what Jesus did at Calvary.

Since the Law ended at Calvary if a person believed he could be saved by the works of the Law, he didn't read or understand what Jesus did for all mankind.

only some part of the laws added by Moses ended, such as all the sacrificial laws for example it is why it is distinct from the 10 commandments that were onside the ark, these 10 commandments is the Covenant.

Bob S said:
A clear distinction? Have you studied 2Cor3:6-11? What do you believe transient means? The 613 includes the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments have nothing to do with love. The were all about duty to God and duty to their fellow man. We treat our fellow man with respect because of our love for all mankind. If we love others, we will not do harm to them. Jn 15:9-14 explains Jesus love command to us.

God also gave the Israelites commands orally. Do you believe they had less value than the Ten? The laws of love are first found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Jesus put a new emphasis telling us we are to love others as He loves us. There is no greater love that to give our life foe someone else, verse 14 of Jn15.

Correct, it was Israel that did that deed. The whole covenant was based on their observance. They failed and the covenant with its laws ceased to be.

Where do you get that it is the Ten Commandments that are written on our hearts? Why would anyone want the ministry of death written on one's heart? We have a New and better Covenant, not a warmed-over covenant that Israel couldn't keep.

The Ten Commandments are a101 course revealing nine aspects of how man can sin. How many ways above and beyond those nine laws do you believe man has to keep if he is refraining from sinning? Paul lists a few that are not included in the Ten Gal3:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those are just the tip of the iceberg.

In Christ, Bob

This passage in 2 Corinthians 3:6-11
talks about the difference between the old covenant, which was based on the law given to Moses, and the new covenant, which comes through the Spirit. Paul is saying that God made them ministers of a new covenant, not one based on written laws but on the Spirit. The reason is that the law by itself, without God's Spirit, brings death because it condemns people when they fail to follow it perfectly. But the Spirit brings life because it transforms the heart, just as God promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Paul refers to the old covenant as "the ministry of death," written on stone, meaning the Ten Commandments given to Moses. This covenant was glorious—when Moses received it, his face shone so brightly that the Israelites couldn’t even look at him. That glory was real, but it faded over time. Now Paul contrasts that with the new covenant, which is brought by the Spirit. If the old covenant, which brought condemnation, had glory, how much more glorious is the new covenant that brings righteousness? The old covenant revealed sin and its consequences, but the new covenant brings true life and makes people right with God.

Jeremiah’s prophecy explains this transformation, where God’s law is no longer just an external command but something written on people’s hearts. Paul affirms this in Hebrews 8, where he directly quotes Jeremiah’s prophecy to show that Jesus has now established this new covenant. Hebrews 8:6-10 says:

"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: 'Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.’”

This shows that the promise God made in Jeremiah has now been fulfilled through Christ. The new covenant does not just set rules but changes people from within by the power of God's Spirit. Instead of relying on written laws, the new covenant brings a deeper relationship with God, where people follow Him because their hearts are transformed. This is why Paul says the ministry of the Spirit is far more glorious and permanent.

All these scripture integrate together, but it does require a good knowledge of the bible, it is why I heav to frequently use cross references and commentaries, they help greatly in the case where there seem to be contradiction in scripture.

ill be back with the other Pauline verses you mentioned;"EPh 2: 15 tells us Jesus set aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. Gal 3:19 tells us the Law was until Jesus" it would be too long do do so here today.

Blessings to you.

JesusFollowerForever · Feb 22, 2025

Bob S said:
You have not read any other source for the information you have presented? In my last post I asked you to tell me where some of your thoughts came from. They coincide with SDA teachings that I have not found in scripture.

Dear BOB, I rely exclusively on the words of the Bible, not any preacher or any church doctrine. I am not at this time part of any church but still looking for a proper church to belong to.

Bob S said:
God gave the Israelites a command to accept Gentiles into their ranks if they so choose.

Still valid today, God accepts anyone who follows his will and love him.

Bob S said:
I believe they were to be circumcised and then they would be able to observe the covenant along with the Israelites.

A long time ago yes but not today.

Bob S said:
I believe this is true.

That was true when the old covenant was the document Israel was to adhere. The old covenant has been replaced with the new and better covenant.

yes it is explained in Jeremiah 32:31-34. Paul also quotes from Isaiah in Hebrews 8.

Bob S said:
Abraham was saved the same way we are, by faith. Abraham's works were not law related, The passage means deeds, how he related to God and others.

yes but we must admit Obedience was key, people may have faith but it must be demonstrated, God does test us and will test us again and again.

I have written a very unpopular post about obedience, I expected it to be unpopular, who wants to obey today?
here is the link in case you would be interested, the post is based on scripture only.

The Theology of Obedience: The Vine and Branches from Genesis to Revelation

The Theology of Obedience: The Vine and Branches from Genesis to Revelation Obedience to God stands as a central theme in Scripture, a living bond that stretches unbroken from the fertile ground of Eden to the fruitful courts of the New Jerusalem. It is not a minor rule or a passing growth; it...

www.christianforums.com

Bob S said:
Your stepmother has five years on me. She must be very grateful for your devotion to her. Bless you in your good deeds to others
In Christ, Bob

I believe she likes the help but sometimes wants to do everything herself and this is tiresome for her, so I help where I can without bruising her ego, I am always happy to help her or anybody who calls for help. Jesus teaches us to so do and it is no burden on the contrary I love doing it.

Blessings to you Bob.

Bob S · Feb 24, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
Dear BOB, I rely exclusively on the words of the Bible, not any preacher or any church doctrine. I am not at this time part of any church but still looking for a proper church to belong to.

Hi JFF, what would be the proper criteria you are trying to find? The church of my upbringing was the Methodist Church. After 40 years in the SDA Church and two years recovering from allowing myself to be deceived by that legalistic false church I went back to my roots because I remembered the people in the Methodist Church to be non-judgmental. Did I believe every doctrine, no, but fellowship is sweet, Sunday School allows for discussion and the Word is preached from the pulpit. There is no way I can support the hierarchy of the UMC, but I do believe the new Global Methodist is very fundamental. Good luck on finding a group that fits with all your personal beliefs. I am convinced that fellowship with other Christians is more important than some doctrinal differences.

JesusFollowerForever said:
yes but we must admit Obedience was key, people may have faith but it must be demonstrated, God does test us and will test us again and again.

I have written a very unpopular post about obedience, I expected it to be unpopular, who wants to obey today?
here is the link in case you would be interested, the post is based on scripture only.

The Theology of Obedience: The Vine and Branches from Genesis to Revelation

The Theology of Obedience: The Vine and Branches from Genesis to Revelation Obedience to God stands as a central theme in Scripture, a living bond that stretches unbroken from the fertile ground of Eden to the fruitful courts of the New Jerusalem. It is not a minor rule or a passing growth; it...

www.christianforums.com

I believe we have to be obedient too. It comes down to what we deem to be relative. It seems like our issues start with our interpretation of Matt 5:17-18. I believe those verses are telling me that all of the laws given to Israel exclusively have been fulfilled (brought to an end) by our Savior Jesus Christ. I sum up that you believe the Ten commandments and some of the Book of the Law are still binding, and the remainder has been done away. My contention is how do you reconcile believing that when Jesus plainly stated that not one Jot or one tittle would pass from the Law till everything is fulfilled????

JesusFollowerForever said:
I believe she likes the help but sometimes wants to do everything herself and this is tiresome for her, so I help where I can without bruising her ego, I am always happy to help her or anybody who calls for help. Jesus teaches us to so do and it is no burden on the contrary I love doing it.

Matt25:40

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. That my friend is agape love and true obedience. God bless. Bob

JesusFollowerForever · Feb 25, 2025

Bob S said:
Hi JFF, what would be the proper criteria you are trying to find? The church of my upbringing was the Methodist Church. After 40 years in the SDA Church and two years recovering from allowing myself to be deceived by that legalistic false church I went back to my roots because I remembered the people in the Methodist Church to be non-judgmental. Did I believe every doctrine, no, but fellowship is sweet, Sunday School allows for discussion and the Word is preached from the pulpit. There is no way I can support the hierarchy of the UMC, but I do believe the new Global Methodist is very fundamental. Good luck on finding a group that fits with all your personal beliefs. I am convinced that fellowship with other Christians is more important than some doctrinal differences.

Hi Bob, My problem is that I am a perfectionist and have searched but have not found yet a church that follows principles of the bible. I agree with what you say that fellowship is more important than doctrinal differences and I will make the effort of finding one, we may have a Methodist church in a nearby village and I will check it out, thanks for the suggestion.

Bob S said:
I believe we have to be obedient too. It comes down to what we deem to be relative. It seems like our issues start with our interpretation of Matt 5:17-18. I believe those verses are telling me that all of the laws given to Israel exclusively have been fulfilled (brought to an end) by our Savior Jesus Christ. I sum up that you believe the Ten commandments and some of the Book of the Law are still binding, and the remainder has been done away. My contention is how do you reconcile believing that when Jesus plainly stated that not one Jot or one tittle would pass from the Law till everything is fulfilled????

for me the word fulfill in Matt 5:17-18 does have a different meaning than yours, that is in part because the word fulfill has different usages. I have asked an AI ( they are really excel at this type of questions), to do an analysis to determine the proper usage of Fulfill in the context of what Christ preached. it also made a comment about why people think fulfill means to end or abolished. For me this was never an issue being french and reading a french Bible that is close to the original text, it renders the word fulfill as accomplished or to accomplish. the meaning is quite different.

please see the link below. I posted this yesterday as many people use the wrong usage for the word fulfill;

Paul vs Christ?

Keeping the Sabbath in the old covenant is tied to burnt offerings :heart: The foreigners who join themselves to the Lord to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant, I will bring...

www.christianforums.com

Bob S said:
Matt25:40

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. That my friend is agape love and true obedience. God bless. Bob

I totally agree.

Blessings.

Bob S · Feb 25, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
Hi Bob, My problem is that I am a perfectionist and have searched but have not found yet a church that follows principles of the bible. I agree with what you say that fellowship is more important than doctrinal differences and I will make the effort of finding one, we may have a Methodist church in a nearby village and I will check it out, thanks for the suggestion.

I fear you will not find the perfection you are looking for in the Methodist Church. What I hope you will find is a group that loves the Lord and is there to help those in need.

JesusFollowerForever said:
for me the word fulfill in Matt 5:17-18 does have a different meaning than yours, that is in part because the word fulfill has different usages. I have asked an AI ( they are really excel at this type of questions), to do an analysis to determine the proper usage of Fulfill in the context of what Christ preached. it also made a comment about why people think fulfill means to end or abolished. For me this was never an issue being french and reading a french Bible that is close to the original text, it renders the word fulfill as accomplished or to accomplish. the meaning is quite different.

I don't believe you have answered my question as to how do you reconcile believing that when Jesus plainly stated that not one Jot or one tittle would pass from the Law till everything is fulfilled (accomplished)???? Did you understand that Jesus brought to an end the prophesies concerning His coming? If it means bring to an end concerning the prophesies, how could it mean something else for the Law? Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. The word fulfill is common to both prophets and Law. Don't we have to consider every verse that relates to Matt 5 like Eph 2:15, Gal 3:19, and Col 2:16-17. 2Cor3:6-11 tells us that the Ten Commandments were temporary and 1Jn 3: 19-24 tells us we belong to the truth if we believe Jesus and love others as He taught. There is absolutely no Sabbath teaching from the Apostles. If it is so important to our salvation, wouldn't you think someone would have mentioned it?

JesusFollowerForever · Feb 25, 2025

Bob S said:
I fear you will not find the perfection you are looking for in the Methodist Church. What I hope you will find is a group that loves the Lord and is there to help those in need.

I don't believe you have answered my question as to how do you reconcile believing that when Jesus plainly stated that not one Jot or one tittle would pass from the Law till everything is fulfilled (accomplished)???? Did you understand that Jesus brought to an end the prophesies concerning His coming? If it means bring to an end concerning the prophesies, how could it mean something else for the Law? Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. The word fulfill is common to both prophets and Law. Don't we have to consider every verse that relates to Matt 5 like Eph 2:15, Gal 3:19, and Col 2:16-17. 2Cor3:6-11 tells us that the Ten Commandments were temporary and 1Jn 3: 19-24 tells us we belong to the truth if we believe Jesus and love others as He taught. There is absolutely no Sabbath teaching from the Apostles. If it is so important to our salvation, wouldn't you think someone would have mentioned it?

When Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled," He made it clear that His coming was not to abolish God’s law but to fulfill its purpose. The word "fulfill" means to bring to its full meaning to complete what was foretold and foreshadowed. (see Jesus magnified the law).

Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Prophets

The prophecies concerning the Messiah’s coming, His suffering, and His role as the Lamb of God were fulfilled in Him. He brought to an end the waiting for the Messiah by being the one foretold. Luke 24:44 confirms this when Jesus said, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." His life, death, and resurrection completed these prophetic words.

However, Jesus did not yet fulfill all prophecies about Him. There are still important things He must accomplish in the future:

His Second Coming – Jesus promised He would return in glory (Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).
The Resurrection of the Righteous and Judgment – Jesus will raise the dead and judge all nations (John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46).
The Establishment of God’s Kingdom on Earth – The full reign of Christ, where righteousness will cover the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Isaiah 11:1-9).
The Final Defeat of Sin and Death – Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, and death itself will be no more (Revelation 20:10, Revelation 21:4).

Since not everything has been fulfilled, it would be incorrect to say that the Law has completely passed away. Jesus Himself said, "Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:18). Heaven and earth still exist, and His work is not yet finished.

Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Law

The law included moral, ceremonial, and civil commands. Jesus did not remove the moral principles of the law (like love, truth, justice, and holiness), but He brought the law to its intended goal—leading people to righteousness through faith in Him. He summarized God's commandments in Matthew 22:37-40:

"'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

This shows that Jesus upheld the heart of the law—love and obedience to God—not just external rule-keeping.

What About the Sabbath?

The Ten Commandments were written by God’s own hand (Exodus 31:18), and the Sabbath was part of them. However, Jesus redefined how the Sabbath should be understood. He said, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27-28). Jesus kept the Sabbath, but He also showed that the Pharisees had turned it into a burden rather than a blessing. His acts of healing and mercy on the Sabbath demonstrated its true purpose.

Now, let’s consider the verses you mentioned:

Ephesians 2:15 – “Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.”
This refers to the ceremonial laws and ordinances that separated Jews and Gentiles, not the moral principles of God’s law.
Galatians 3:19 – “What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made.”
The law pointed to Christ, showing people their sin and need for salvation. Once Christ came, He accomplished its purpose as the way to righteousness.
Colossians 2:16-17 – “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”
This refers to the ceremonial sabbaths (feast days) that pointed to Christ. The weekly Sabbath was established at creation (Genesis 2:3) and was separate from these ceremonial laws.
2 Corinthians 3:6-11 – Describes the glory of the old covenant fading away in comparison to the new covenant in Christ, which is written on our hearts.
The Ten Commandments were written on stone, but now, through Jesus, the law is fulfilled in love and written in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). explained in detail in post 49 of this thread
1 John 3:19-24 – John tells us that we belong to the truth if we keep God’s commandment to believe in Jesus and love one another.
This aligns with Jesus’ teachings, but it does not remove the importance of obedience to God's ways.

Why Didn’t the Apostles Focus on the Sabbath?

The apostles focused on Jesus as the center of salvation, not debating which laws to keep. The Sabbath was already understood among Jews and those who worshipped the God of Israel. Even after Jesus’ resurrection, believers continued gathering on the Sabbath (Acts 13:42-44, Acts 16:13, Acts 18:4).

Paul never taught against the Sabbath; he simply emphasized salvation by grace rather than legalistic rule-keeping. If the Sabbath were abolished, there would be a clear statement in Scripture saying so—just as circumcision and sacrifices were clearly shown to be no longer required.

From Jesus’ Point of View

Jesus upheld God's law while exposing the Pharisees' hypocrisy. He never taught that the Sabbath was unnecessary—He corrected false ideas about it. The question is not whether the Sabbath was taught after Jesus, but whether He Himself observed and valued it. And He did.

If we follow Christ’s example, we cannot say the Sabbath is unimportant. Instead of seeing it as a burden, we should see it as a gift of rest and time with God. It was part of creation, affirmed in the commandments, and never revoked by Jesus.

Wouldn’t it be wise to follow what Jesus Himself did and taught?

Blessings!

Bob S · Feb 26, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
When Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled," He made it clear that His coming was not to abolish God’s law but to fulfill its purpose. The word "fulfill" means to bring to its full meaning to complete what was foretold and foreshadowed. (see Jesus magnified the law).

JesusFollowerForever said:
Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Prophets
The prophecies concerning the Messiah’s coming, His suffering, and His role as the Lamb of God were fulfilled in Him. He brought to an end the waiting for the Messiah by being the one foretold. Luke 24:44 confirms this when Jesus said, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." His life, death, and resurrection completed these prophetic words.

The Ten Commandments were included in the Law of Moses. The prophesies concerning Jesus must be fulfilled. Doesn't that mean to bring to an end or complete? Sure it does. The same meaning relates to the Law. I do not mean to chastise but it is very hard to change a person's mind because of preconceived beliefs. When Jesus came to this Earth, He had certain things to accomplish. One was to fulfill the Law of Moses. Gal 3:19 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

You wrote: The law pointed to Christ, showing people their sin and need for salvation. Once Christ came, He accomplished its purpose as the way to righteousness. That sounds nice, but that is not what the verse is stating. It was ADDED UNTIL....

JesusFollowerForever said:
However, Jesus did not yet fulfill all prophecies about Him. There are still important things He must accomplish in the future:

It was not Jesus' pan to fulfill all. He either fulfilled all He came to fulfill or He didn't. God doesn't half do anything. He came to do and did exactly what He said He was going to do. Your point is mute.

JesusFollowerForever said:
His Second Coming – Jesus promised He would return in glory (Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

The Resurrection of the Righteous and Judgment – Jesus will raise the dead and judge all nations (John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46).

The Establishment of God’s Kingdom on Earth – The full reign of Christ, where righteousness will cover the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Isaiah 11:1-9).

The Final Defeat of Sin and Death – Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, and death itself will be no more (Revelation 20:10, Revelation 21:4).

Since not everything has been fulfilled, it would be incorrect to say that the Law has completely passed away. Jesus Himself said, "Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:18). Heaven and earth still exist, and His work is not yet finished.

Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Law
The law included moral, ceremonial, and civil commands. Jesus did not remove the moral principles of the law (like love, truth, justice, and holiness), but He brought the law to its intended goal—leading people to righteousness through faith in Him. He summarized God's commandments in Matthew 22:37-40:

Laws dealing with morality were and are forever. They are now recognized by new covenant believers as the Royal Law of Love. The civil laws and ritual laws were given to only one nation, Israel. The covenant they were part of no longer exists. Yes, we certainly glean from all He came to do, but they are not binding. If you conclude Jesus released the Jews from only part of the Law, then you have to believe He didn't fulfill all He came to do.

JesusFollowerForever said:
"'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

This shows that Jesus upheld the heart of the law—love and obedience to God—not just external rule-keeping.

Agree, actually Jesus is God. He came to Earth to fulfill the prophesies. He came to give lost Israel a second chance. He has invited Gentiles to participate.

JesusFollowerForever said:
What About the Sabbath?
The Ten Commandments were written by God’s own hand (Exodus 31:18), and the Sabbath was part of them. However, Jesus redefined how the Sabbath should be understood. He said, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27-28). Jesus kept the Sabbath, but He also showed that the Pharisees had turned it into a burden rather than a blessing. His acts of healing and mercy on the Sabbath demonstrated its true purpose.

If the Sabbath was made for Gentiles, I do not believe it was, then why hasn't God ever commanded Gentile nations to observe it? Why wasn't it part of the Gospel given to all nations? That is something very important to consider

JesusFollowerForever said:
Now, let’s consider the verses you mentioned:

Ephesians 2:15 – “Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.”
This refers to the ceremonial laws and ordinances that separated Jews and Gentiles, not the moral principles of God’s law.

Now you are adding your own thoughts to what is written. If Paul didn't mean the Ten Commandments, I believe He would have been more specific. He said the Ten Commandments were temporary.

JesusFollowerForever said:
Galatians 3:19 – “What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made.”
The law pointed to Christ, showing people their sin and need for salvation. Once Christ came, He accomplished its purpose as the way to righteousness.

He accomplished its purpose ~~as the way to righteousness.~~ The Law could only do one thing, point out sin, it could not make one living soul righteous.

JesusFollowerForever said:
Colossians 2:16-17 – “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”
This refers to the ceremonial sabbaths (feast days) that pointed to Christ. The weekly Sabbath was established at creation (Genesis 2:3) and was separate from these ceremonial laws.

I don't remember Paul ever writing the same thing twice, but here you have him repeating himself. He mentions feasts, new moons and then you have Him mentioning feasts again. Is that really what Paul wrote. I certainly do not agree with you. Paul didn't mince words; he wrote three different occasions that were shadows of Jesus. Paul had to have meant the weekly Sabbaths. Judaizers were trying to put new converts under the dictates of the previous covenant. Paul wrote for them not to allow them to judge them for living under Grace and not the old covenant laws.

JesusFollowerForever said:
2 Corinthians 3:6-11 – Describes the glory of the old covenant fading away in comparison to the new covenant in Christ, which is written on our hearts.
The Ten Commandments were written on stone, but now, through Jesus, the law is fulfilled in love and written in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). explained in detail in post 49 of this thread

Those verses do not tell us what you have written. I believe what you wrote is a lame excuse for not believing what Paul really wrote. I am not trying to be mean, I just want people to face up to reality. Those verses tell us that Jews were no longer under the dictates of the Ten Commandments They now have something greater, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the guide for all mankind not the ministry of death.

JesusFollowerForever said:
1 John 3:19-24 – John tells us that we belong to the truth if we keep God’s commandment to believe in Jesus and love one another.
This aligns with Jesus’ teachings, but it does not remove the importance of obedience to God's ways

Isn't Jesus enough? Do we have to add a but. Jesus' way is for us to Love others as He loved us. He kept the old way and asks us to keep His way. Jn 15:9-14

JesusFollowerForever said:
.

Why Didn’t the Apostles Focus on the Sabbath?
The apostles focused on Jesus as the center of salvation, not debating which laws to keep. The Sabbath was already understood among Jews and those who worshipped the God of Israel. Even after Jesus’ resurrection, believers continued gathering on the Sabbath (Acts 13:42-44, Acts 16:13, Acts 18:4).

It was the Apostles who were meeting on the Sabbath. We have to ask the reason they were doing it then. That seems to be easy, it was the time they could get them all together. Paul had already proclaimed we are not under the Law so many times. Why would he and those with him do the opposite. They had a mission to spread the Good News, that what they were doing not only on the defunct Sabbath, but every day.

JesusFollowerForever said:
Paul never taught against the Sabbath; he simply emphasized salvation by grace rather than legalistic rule-keeping. If the Sabbath were abolished, there would be a clear statement in Scripture saying so—just as circumcision and sacrifices were clearly shown to be no longer required.

Now that you know Paul really did mean the weekly Sabbath there in Col 2:16 can you still believe what you wrote? You are correct in that Paul never taught against the Sabbath, feast days, new moons or dietary habits. He merely pointed out that Jews are no longer under those dictates. Gentiles, as you know were never under any of the ritual laws given to Israel

JesusFollowerForever said:
From Jesus’ Point of View
Jesus upheld God's law while exposing the Pharisees' hypocrisy. He never taught that the Sabbath was unnecessary—He corrected false ideas about it. The question is not whether the Sabbath was taught after Jesus, but whether He Himself observed and valued it. And He did.

The reason He didn't was the new covenant didn't begin until Jesus ratified it on the Cross. He taught what Israel was under.

JesusFollowerForever said:
If we follow Christ’s example, we cannot say the Sabbath is unimportant. Instead of seeing it as a burden, we should see it as a gift of rest and time with God. It was part of creation, affirmed in the commandments, and never revoked by Jesus.

If we follow Jesus' example we would be keeping feast days, new moons, refraining from certain foods, not cutting our sideburns and a host of other laws we probably don't know existed at one time. Can you tell us you are able to keep the Sabbath the way Is 58:13 requires? If you fail it most certainly does become a burden, especially if you believe keeping it has some part of your salvation.

JesusFollowerForever said:
Wouldn’t it be wise to follow what Jesus Himself did and taught?

Jesus taught Paul what we need to know to lead a life that Jesus intends for us to live. Jesus lived and taught all of the old covenant laws. Is this what you mean for us to do? In Christ, Bob

JesusFollowerForever · Feb 27, 2025

Hi Bob, I went to great lengths to research properly and explain clearly to you the proper usage of Fulfill, You still believe is means to end, I understand why, it has to do with Paul's writings that seem to imply the commandments are ended but they are not.

We need a discuss things one at a time or we get lost in these huge replies difficult to manage. So I will cut my replies to one item at a time so we can understand each other, and when you reply do the same one reply one at a time also. it would help greatly.

Bob, I want you to think very carefully at the following suppositions.

1-Imagine the bible with NO writings at all of apostle Paul, what would you be missing of the word of GOD?

2- Imagine a new testament section with ONLY Paul's works but nothing else, what would you be missing from the word of GOD? what would you know of Jesus?

Bob S · Feb 28, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
Hi Bob, I went to great lengths to research properly and explain clearly to you the proper usage of Fulfill,

I read all of your reasons and rebut them with scripture and reasoning. Please answer this one question: did Jesus fulfill, bring to an end the prophesies concerning His coming?

JesusFollowerForever said:
You still believe is means to end, I understand why, it has to do with Paul's writings that seem to imply the commandments are ended but they are not.

Sorry, just one more question I would like for you to address. Do you believe the Apostle Paul was commissioned to spread the Good New to those he did?

JesusFollowerForever said:
We need a discuss things one at a time or we get lost in these huge replies difficult to manage. So I will cut my replies to one item at a time so we can understand each other, and when you reply do the same one reply one at a time also. it would help greatly.

I appreciate that. I will try not to stray from 1the topic. I do want to let you know that I was trying to use other scripture to shed light on the topic we actually started with. It appears that you have excuses for each one I presented.

JesusFollowerForever said:
Bob, I want you to think very carefully at the following suppositions.

1-Imagine the bible with NO writings at all of apostle Paul, what would you be missing of the word of GOD?

Jesus felt it was necessary that Paul teach all that he did. We certainly would not have the grasp on what the new covenant is all about. Remember Jesus died at the same time He ratified the new way. Paul is the one Jesus ordained to take the reins and spread the Good News, taught salvation does not come by the works of the Law, he taught that it is a free gift from God.

Do you believe the Judaizers would have kept anyone on the right path? They were teaching salvation by the works of the laws of the old covenant. What are you teaching?

To answer your question, I cannot imagine scripture without the writings of Paul.

JesusFollowerForever said:
2- Imagine a new testament section with ONLY Paul's works but nothing else, what would you be missing from the word of GOD? what would you know of Jesus?

A lot of pertinent history would certainly be missing. Paul's writings contained the Gospel. Did the Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Romans, Thessalonians, and the book of Hebrews have any of remainder of the New Testament? The way they lived and believed relied on the personal visits from Paul and His letters of which many we do not have. If they followed the writings of Paul, they had all the information they needed to attain eternal life. If you deny that then all of those who Paul taught through the working of the Holy Spirit are not saved.

JesusFollowerForever · Feb 28, 2025

Bob S said:
I read all of your reasons and rebut them with scripture and reasoning. Please answer this one question: did Jesus fulfill, bring to an end the prophesies concerning His coming?

Sorry, just one more question I would like for you to address. Do you believe the Apostle Paul was commissioned to spread the Good New to those he did?

I appreciate that. I will try not to stray from 1the topic. I do want to let you know that I was trying to use other scripture to shed light on the topic we actually started with. It appears that you have excuses for each one I presented.

Jesus felt it was necessary that Paul teach all that he did. We certainly would not have the grasp on what the new covenant is all about. Remember Jesus died at the same time He ratified the new way. Paul is the one Jesus ordained to take the reins and spread the Good News, taught salvation does not come by the works of the Law, he taught that it is a free gift from God.

Do you believe the Judaizers would have kept anyone on the right path? They were teaching salvation by the works of the laws of the old covenant. What are you teaching?

To answer your question, I cannot imagine scripture without the writings of Paul.

A lot of pertinent history would certainly be missing. Paul's writings contained the Gospel. Did the Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Romans, Thessalonians, and the book of Hebrews have any of remainder of the New Testament? The way they lived and believed relied on the personal visits from Paul and His letters of which many we do not have. If they followed the writings of Paul, they had all the information they needed to attain eternal life. If you deny that then all of those who Paul taught through the working of the Holy Spirit are not saved.

No bob Jesus did not fulfill all prophecies about him still a few hundreds to go, when he is done completing all that is written about him it will be then the new earth and new Jerusalem and GOD's prople will dwell with him in heaven. what Jesus accomplished if following the law perfectly and Gave his life for us as the final sacrificial lamb still many. prophecies need to be accomplished, but it wont be long now before he returns, world events are movinf fast now, i would say exponentially fast.

what did Paul teach that Jesus had not already done or already explained, did Paul magnify the law explaining the proper way to follow or, from the heart?, all I see from Paul is writings that confused a lot of people who, because of his writings think the law is dead.

you wrote;
Sorry, just one more question I would like for you to address. Do you believe the Apostle Paul was commissioned to spread the Good New to those he did?

A: What does the bible say? Peter not Paul was appointed by GOD to preach the Gospel to the gentiles. then, who appointed Paul and who says so? Did Paul teach the same gospel than Jesus or was it a different Gospel it is the reason Why Paul called it "MY gospel"? why did Paul say it is by "according to MY GOSPEL THAT ALL SHALL BE JUDGED?" Is it not Jesus that will judge us? Paul was not the pillar of the church it was Peter and James who were.

you wrote: Jesus felt it was necessary that Paul teach all that he did.
A: where is this in scripture? we only have Paul's words on this no one else and no witnesses!

We certainly would not have the grasp on what the new covenant is all about. In the lase supper Jesus started the new covenant it was clearly written, also do not forger Paul quoted the new covenant passage directly from Jeremiah 31, nothing new here.

You wrote:
Remember Jesus died at the same time He ratified the new way.Paul is the one Jesus ordained to take the reins and spread the Good News, taught salvation does not come by the works of the Law, he taught that it is a free gift from God.

Like I proved to you before Peter was ordained head of the church, he started it ! He was chosen By GOD to preach to the gentiles! He was the main pillar! you forget What Jesus declared; "
Mat 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.
Do you think Jesus changed his mind? I do not!

you wrote: Do you believe the Judaisms would have kept anyone on the right path? They were teaching salvation by the works of the laws of the old covenant. What are you teaching?

A: No the judaizers were on the wrong path, did not understand the core of the law, LOVE. They were teaching salvation by the letter of the law only and not how. Jesus explained this, no need for Paul here, Jesus was teaching the core values of the Law. As for the works of the law, Jesus obeyed the commandments, the proper way. He gave us the example to follow, love one another and help one another and to love GOD with all out strength, theses are the true works of the law. Jesus explained that the importance and core of the works of the law is LOVE, he demonstrated this daily, by curing the sick and preaching Repentance and the Kingdom of Heaven, this is why he came also. As for teaching, our teacher is Jesus, I am only repeating what is did and said.

The core massage of the bible are the words of Jesus, it is by His words alone that we have Hope and that salvation is possible. If is only by Him that we have access to eternal life.
never forget:

John 17:3
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
John 6:40
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 17:21
"That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."
John 10:30
"I and My Father are one."
John 5:24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."
John 6:47
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life."

Note : believing also means to put in appilcation the teachings of jesus.

Now BOB Get ready, Our lord is coming soon, I have been told this, be ready and do not forget the oil for your lamp! it should be full when Christ returns. (Matthew 25:1-13)

Blessings.

Bob S · Mar 1, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
No bob Jesus did not fulfill all prophecies about him still a few hundreds to go, when he is done completing all that is written about him it will be then the new earth and new Jerusalem and GOD's prople will dwell with him in heaven. what Jesus accomplished if following the law perfectly and Gave his life for us as the final sacrificial lamb still many. prophecies need to be accomplished, but it wont be long now before he returns, world events are movinf fast now, i would say exponentially fast.

Hi JFF, I believe you misread my question. We all know there were many more prophesies to be fulfilled. I asked you plainly if Jesus fulfilled the prophesies ABOUT HIS COMING. I meant born into this World and dying for our sins. Juke 18:31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. Luke24: 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

JesusFollowerForever said:
what did Paul teach that Jesus had not already done or already explained, did Paul magnify the law explaining the proper way to follow or, from the heart?, all I see from Paul is writings that confused a lot of people who, because of his writings think the law is dead.

You must not believe Paul is part of the cannon.

JesusFollowerForever said:
Q:
Sorry, just one more question I would like for you to address. Do you believe the Apostle Paul was commissioned to spread the Good New to those he did?

A: What does the bible say? Peter not Paul was appointed by GOD to preach the Gospel to the gentiles. then, who appointed Paul and who says so? Did Paul teach the same gospel than Jesus or was it a different Gospel it is the reason Why Paul called it "MY gospel"? why did Paul say it is by "according to MY GOSPEL THAT ALL SHALL BE JUDGED?" Is it not Jesus that will judge us? Paul was not the pillar of the church it was Peter and James who were.

I can't but wonder why you are so dead set to derail what is written in scripture JFF. I didn't say Paul was thew pillar of the church. Why is it I have to defend everything I write in order to set you straight?

Acts26: 12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

JesusFollowerForever said:
you wrote: Jesus felt it was necessary that Paul teach all that he did.
A: where is this in scripture? we only have Paul's words on this no one else and no witnesses!

I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Who wrote Acts JFF? My Bible tells me it was Luke. If it had been Paul, I could have believed what you are writing about Jesus' ambassador to us. Since you believe Paul to be an imposter, I will have to assume Luke is one too because He is the one who is responsible for telling the story of Paul's conversion.

JesusFollowerForever said:
We certainly would not have the grasp on what the new covenant is all about. In the lase supper Jesus started the new covenant it was claerly written, also do not forger Paul quoted the new covenant passage directlu from Jeremiah 31, nothing new here.

Is that your reason for denying all of Paul's writings?

JesusFollowerForever said:
You wrote: Remember Jesus died at the same time He ratified the new way.Paul is the one Jesus ordained to take the reins and spread the Good News, taught salvation does not come by the works of the Law, he taught that it is a free gift from God.

Like i proved to you before Peter was ordained head of the church, he started it ! He was chosen By GOD to preach to the gentiles! Hewas the main pillar! you forget What jesus declared; "
Mat 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.
Do you think Jesus changed his mind? I do not!

Does that in any way diminish what Jesus ordained Paul to do? Did Peter deny what Paul was doing? I would think that you would have realized Paul influenced the believers much more than Peter's two small letters admonishing the Church.

JesusFollowerForever said:
you wrote: Do you believe the Judaizers would have kept anyone on the right path? They were teaching salvation by the works of the laws of the old covenant. What are you teaching?

A: No the jusaizers were on the wrong path, did not understant the core of the law, LOVE. they were teaching salvation by the letter of the law only and not why, jesus explained this, no need for paul here, Jesus was teaching the core values of the Law. As for the works of the law, jesus had a different take, on it, he did give is he gave us the example to follow, love one another and help one another and to love GOD with all out strenght, theses are the true works of the law. jesus explained the importance of the works of the law , LOVE, he demonstrated daily, by curing the sick and preaching Repentance and the Kingdom of Heaven, tis is why he vame also. As for teaching, out teacher is Jesus, I am only repeating what is did and said.

Well, you might believe there was no need for Paul, but Jesus must have because of Jesus Paul changed his heart and became the most
influential Writer in the New Testament. I believe the reason you deny him is because he proves your preconceived beliefs to be wrong.

JesusFollowerForever said:
The core massage of the bible are the words of Jesus, it is by His words alone that we have Hope and that salvation is possible. If is only by Him that we have access to eternal life.
never forget:

John 17:3
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
John 6:40
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 17:21
"That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."
John 10:30
"I and My Father are one."
John 5:24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."
John 6:47
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life."

Note : believing also means to put in appilcation the teachings of jesus.

Now BOB Get ready, Our lord is coming soon, I have been told this, be ready and do not forget the oil for your lamp! it should be full when Christ returns. (Matthew 25:1-13)

Amen on the texts! I claim all of those promises. What does soon mean JFF? You ask me to get ready and I am wondering if you mean I am not ready because I do not latch on to your beliefs. Remember it is not what we do; it is what Jesus has done for us. Jesus is enough. In Christ, Bob.

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 1, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
No bob Jesus did not fulfill all prophecies about him still a few hundreds to go, when he is done completing all that is written about him it will be then the new earth and new Jerusalem and GOD's prople will dwell with him in heaven. what Jesus accomplished if following the law perfectly and Gave his life for us as the final sacrificial lamb still many. prophecies need to be accomplished, but it wont be long now before he returns, world events are movinf fast now, i would say exponentially fast.

Hi JFF, I believe you misread my question. We all know there were many more prophesies to be fulfilled. I asked you plainly if Jesus fulfilled the prophesies ABOUT HIS COMING. I meant born into this World and dying for our sins. Juke 18:31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. Luke24: 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

yes on his first coming I do believe he accomplished what was written about him.

JesusFollowerForever said:
what did Paul teach that Jesus had not already done or already explained, did Paul magnify the law explaining the proper way to follow or, from the heart?, all I see from Paul is writings that confused a lot of people who, because of his writings think the law is dead.

You must not believe Paul is part of the cannon.
Oh Yes, Paul has his part to play in the bible.

JesusFollowerForever said:
Q:
Sorry, just one more question I would like for you to address. Do you believe the Apostle Paul was commissioned to spread the Good New to those he did?

A: What does the bible say? Peter not Paul was appointed by GOD to preach the Gospel to the gentiles. then, who appointed Paul and who says so? Did Paul teach the same gospel than Jesus or was it a different Gospel it is the reason Why Paul called it "MY gospel"? why did Paul say it is by "according to MY GOSPEL THAT ALL SHALL BE JUDGED?" Is it not Jesus that will judge us? Paul was not the pillar of the church it was Peter and James who were.

Click to expand...

I can't but wonder why you are so dead set to derail what is written in scripture JFF. I didn't say Paul was thew pillar of the church. Why is it I have to defend everything I write in order to set you straight?

it is people who derail scripture by not believing what Jesus was teaching is or do as he said we are supposed to do, instead they believe very word of paul and they think his words are in some instances at least equal to Jesus wich is absolutely false!

Acts26: 12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

I am wall aware they Jesus gave a serious warning to Paul to stop persecuting the church.

JesusFollowerForever said:
you wrote: Jesus felt it was necessary that Paul teach all that he did.
A: where is this in scripture? we only have Paul's words on this no one else and no witnesses!

I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Who wrote Acts JFF? My Bible tells me it was Luke. If it had been Paul, I could have believed what you are writing about Jesus' ambassador to us. Since you believe Paul to be an imposter, I will have to assume Luke is one too because He is the one who is responsible for telling the story of Paul's conversion.
Luke was Paul's travelling companion I believe what he wrote.

JesusFollowerForever said:
We certainly would not have the grasp on what the new covenant is all about. In the lase supper Jesus started the new covenant it was claerly written, also do not forger Paul quoted the new covenant passage directlu from Jeremiah 31, nothing new here.

Is that your reason for denying all of Paul's writings?
I am not denying, I was trying for you to see ( hypothetically) what would be missing is only Paul was in the new testament, quite a lot actually. Paul's Gospel was very shallow and missed key elements.

JesusFollowerForever said:
You wrote: Remember Jesus died at the same time He ratified the new way.Paul is the one Jesus ordained to take the reins and spread the Good News, taught salvation does not come by the works of the Law, he taught that it is a free gift from God.

Like i proved to you before Peter was ordained head of the church, he started it ! He was chosen By GOD to preach to the gentiles! Hewas the main pillar! you forget What jesus declared; "
Mat 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.
Do you think Jesus changed his mind? I do not!

Click to expand...

Does that in any way diminish what Jesus ordained Paul to do? Did Peter deny what Paul was doing? I would think that you would have realized Paul influenced the believers much more than Peter's two small letters admonishing the Church.
I do not know if Peter denied what Paul was doing but there is evidence that they did not like one another and were disputing. also Paul was constantly boasting to be better or at least equal to the original 11, Paul was not an example of humility.

this debate has been going on since the beginning of the church. Now time is very short, and we must put out priorities in order.

JesusFollowerForever said:
you wrote: Do you believe the Judaizers would have kept anyone on the right path? They were teaching salvation by the works of the laws of the old covenant. What are you teaching?

A: No the jusaizers were on the wrong path, did not understant the core of the law, LOVE. they were teaching salvation by the letter of the law only and not why, jesus explained this, no need for paul here, Jesus was teaching the core values of the Law. As for the works of the law, jesus had a different take, on it, he did give is he gave us the example to follow, love one another and help one another and to love GOD with all out strenght, theses are the true works of the law. jesus explained the importance of the works of the law , LOVE, he demonstrated daily, by curing the sick and preaching Repentance and the Kingdom of Heaven, tis is why he vame also. As for teaching, out teacher is Jesus, I am only repeating what is did and said.

Click to expand...

Well, you might believe there was no need for Paul, but Jesus must have because of Jesus Paul changed his heart and became the most
influential Writer in the New Testament. I believe the reason you deny him is because he proves your preconceived beliefs to be wrong.
The words of Paul and Jesus MUST align or Paul must be rejected. I do believe they can be reconciled. Paul was Just an imperfect man like us all, Jesus was perfect like His Father in Heaven, it is In Jesus that I fully commit and no one else. Surely none can blame me for this.

JesusFollowerForever said:
The core massage of the bible are the words of Jesus, it is by His words alone that we have Hope and that salvation is possible. If is only by Him that we have access to eternal life.
never forget:

John 17:3
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
John 6:40
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 17:21
"That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."
John 10:30
"I and My Father are one."
John 5:24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."
John 6:47
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life."

Note : believing also means to put in appilcation the teachings of jesus.

Now BOB Get ready, Our lord is coming soon, I have been told this, be ready and do not forget the oil for your lamp! it should be full when Christ returns. (Matthew 25:1-13)

Amen on the texts! I claim all of those promises. What does soon mean JFF? You ask me to get ready and I am wondering if you mean I am not ready because I do not latch on to your beliefs. Remember it is not what we do; it is what Jesus has done for us. Jesus is enough. In Christ, Bob.

Yes bob but most importantly, is what Jesus asked of us also, is simply believing in Jesus enough?

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but do not do what I say?

I do not know if you are ready, if you do not believe we have to follow the commandments you might not be, do you believe? I am not talking here of Following blindly the letters but to apply the commandments properly with Love, respect and diligence, like Jesus showed us. In the Kingdom of Heaven, it will be so, everyone will follow these commandments from the heart as prophesied in Jeremiah 32:31-33.

I have had many visions about Jacob's trouble and a second exodus. we are now in the time of Jacob's trouble with all that it implies, time is short now we must be ready. hard to say exactly when, a few years, 10 maybe 20? prophecies are unravelling very fast now, search about GAZA in the old testament the destruction described has happened. Also the world is on the brink of global war

Blessings Bob.

Studyman · Mar 1, 2025

Bob S said:
Israel was to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy because of God's delivering them out of slavery in Egypt, Deut 5.

Egypt, in the Exodus story, represents sin, and the journey of men who partake of the Passover out of sin. That is the purpose of the Passover, and Feast of Unleavened bread, to persuade men "To go and Sin no more". Paul explains this in 1 Cor 10, for those who are interested in Biblical Truth.

God didn't create and sanctify His Sabbath Day at creation, because HE was a slave in Egypt. He made the Sabbath for man to help them on their journey departing from sin. Paul said not to be ignorant of the Exodus as it was written for the admonition of both Jew and Gentile as they "Yield themselves" to God, and "Press towards the Prize of the High Calling of God", that was in Christ Jesus. For those interested in hearing Paul's message, in can be found in Philippians 3: 12-15.

Bob S said:
Jesus came to deliver them again from the bondage of the ministry of death, the Law.

This may be a philosophy of your adopted religious business or sect that you are now promoting. But it seems prudent to hear what the Jesus "of the Bible" actually teaches.

Jesus said, "24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I know from experience that you are not allowed to answer questions, but if you were I would ask, "According to Scriptures, why were the Sheep Lost"? According to your sermon here, you imply that the Sheep were Lost because they were living in accordance to God's Law which, according to your past posts, is a Yoke of Bondage. Zacharias and Simeon and Anna lived in obedience to God. They were not lost according to what is actually written. But those who followed the popular philosophy of the mainstream religions of that time, who taught for doctrines the Commandments of men and not God, they were lost.

For those who believe God, HE tells us why the Sheep were lost in His Holy Inspired Word.

Jer. 50: 6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

So your preaching that men were lost because they believed God, is foolishness, according to what is actually written.

Keep in mind that the Levitical Priesthood, that wasn't "ADDED" to God's Laws, Statutes and Commandments, until 430 years after Abraham, required the death of animals for remission of Sins.

Lev. 4: 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, "for his sin which he hath sinned". 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and "slay the sin offering" in the place of the burnt offering.

Paul speaks to this old Ministry in the Scripture you referenced.

2 Cor. 3: 7 But if the ministration (Ministry) of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The entire Law and Prophets teach that God didn't desire this "ministry of death", rather, He desired humble obedience.

1 Sam. 15: 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Hebrews speaks to the end of this Temporary "Shadow" of the advent of god's Prophesied High Priest, "After the Order of Melchizedek".

Heb. 8: 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Why was the Levitical Priesthood changed?

Heb. 10: 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Jesus gave His Life once and for all, which is what this Priesthood foreshadowed. He is the New High Priest of God after a NEW Order, not after the Order of Aaron, AKA, "The Ministration of death".

The deceiver, who also quotes "SOME" of God's Word to deceive, as it did to Eve, would have men believe that Jesus came to destroy God's instruction in righteousness. And it uses gullible, corruptible men, "Who come in Christ's Name", to promote this religious philosophy that it was God's Laws that caused Israel to fall, not stubborn, stiff-necked rebellion against God's Righteousness, as the scriptures teach.

Thankfully the Jesus "of the Bible" saw these men coming, and warned those who believe in Him, to take heed of their seductive religious philosophy which cause those who adopt them to, as the Jesus "of the Bible" says. "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep "your own tradition".

I advocate believing in the Words of the Christ "of the Bible", that is why I replied to your post that teaches a different gospel.

Bob S · Mar 2, 2025

Jff wrote: yes on his first coming I do believe he accomplished what was written about him.

The sentence says Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the prophets. One sentence to fulfill, accomplish, the prophets. How do you separate the fulfilling the prophesies concerning His coming from fulfilling the Law? You have admitted Jesus fulfilled (brought to an end) the prophesies, but you insist the meaning of fulfill is something other than bring to an end. Everything Paul wrote fits perfectly with the Law ending at Calvary.

Jesus came to save the Jews under the laws of the old covenant. Those laws didn't end until Jesus ratified the new and better covenant.

Why would Jesus ask Paul to spread the Good News if He thought Paul would start teaching against Jesus will?

JesusFollowerForever · Monday at 7:34 AM

Bob S said:
Jff wrote: yes on his first coming I do believe he accomplished what was written about him.

The sentence says Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the prophets. One sentence to fulfill, accomplish, the prophets. How do you separate the fulfilling the prophesies concerning His coming from fulfilling the Law? You have admitted Jesus fulfilled (brought to an end) the prophesies, but you insist the meaning of fulfill is something other than bring to an end. Everything Paul wrote fits perfectly with the Law ending at Calvary.

Jesus came to save the Jews under the laws of the old covenant. Those laws didn't end until Jesus ratified the new and better covenant.

Why would Jesus ask Paul to spread the Good News if He thought Paul would start teaching against Jesus will?

I have proven to you in the proper context the word fulfill does not mean to end, if you do not believe me, then consult a library and see for yourself. Like I pointed out, fulfill had at least 5 different meanings you selected the one that matched what Paul wrote but that contradicts what Jesus wrote that the law would not pass. the commandments still stand, that will never change.

there are a few different usage for the word Fulfil. since it is a point if disagreement for many I asked an AI to compare the different usages to a verse from Jesus;

Let me provide definitions of "fulfill" from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary and match them to the most appropriate application in the context of Matthew 5:17.

""Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.""

Definitions of "Fulfill" from the Cambridge Dictionary:

To do or achieve what was hoped for or expected.
To do something that is required, promised, or expected.
To make something happen or be true.
To bring something to an end or to completion.
To reach or perform the required standard.

Applying these definitions to Matthew 5:17:

"To do or achieve what was hoped for or expected": This definition fits well with the concept of Jesus fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. The Law and Prophets were pointing toward the coming Messiah, and Jesus achieved exactly what was hoped for and expected by fulfilling their prophecies and intentions. He realized the hope of salvation and righteousness that the Law pointed toward.
"To do something that is required, promised, or expected": This could be applied in the sense that Jesus did what the Law required—living in perfect obedience and fulfilling its moral, ceremonial, and prophetic elements. It highlights the requirement of righteousness that Jesus met and exceeded, bringing the Law to full completion.
"To make something happen or be true": This definition fits because Jesus made the truth of the Law and the Prophets come to reality in His life. He didn't just teach about the Law; He made its fulfillment tangible and real through His actions, bringing about its ultimate purpose.
"To bring something to an end or to completion": This could apply if we focus on how Jesus brought the old system of the Law to its fulfillment, which involved completing its purpose (especially with regard to the sacrificial system). However, while He did bring an end to the sacrificial system, the Law itself was not "ended" but rather completed in Him.
"To reach or perform the required standard": This could be an appropriate application because Jesus perfectly fulfilled the standards of righteousness the Law required, something humanity could never do. His perfect obedience to God’s law exemplified this fulfillment.

Conclusion:

The most appropriate definition from the Cambridge Dictionary for Matthew 5:17 is "To do something that is required, promised, or expected". This reflects how Jesus fulfilled the Law by perfectly meeting its requirements, living out its moral teachings, and fulfilling its prophetic promises. He brought what was required by the Law into reality, completing its intent and bringing it to its fullest expression.

Some people interpret the word "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17 as meaning that the commandments and the Law are ended or abolished, and this interpretation is often influenced by certain teachings of Paul, particularly where he speaks about the Law in relation to Christians under the New Covenant.

Why Some People Think "Fulfill" Means the Law is Ended:

The reason some people believe that the word "fulfill" implies the abolition of the Law is because they associate it with Paul’s teachings, which sometimes emphasize that believers are no longer under the Old Covenant laws. This interpretation stems from a belief that Jesus' coming fulfilled and thus ended the old system of the Law, especially in the areas of ceremonial and sacrificial laws. They may argue that, because Jesus fulfilled the Law, believers in Christ are no longer bound by the commandments in the same way.

Key Verses in Paul’s Letters That Contribute to This Interpretation:

Romans 10:4 – "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
- This verse is often cited to suggest that Christ’s work brought the Law to an end, especially in regard to seeking righteousness through the Law. Some interpret "the end of the law" to mean that the Law no longer applies in the same way, as Christ fulfills its demands for righteousness.
Galatians 3:23-25 – "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
- Paul here is saying that the Law acted as a "guardian" until Christ came. After Christ’s coming, believers are no longer under the Law in the same way because they are justified by faith. This suggests a transition from being under the Law to being under grace through faith, which some interpret as the Law being "ended" or no longer applicable in its previous form.
Ephesians 2:15 – "By abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace."
- In this passage, Paul speaks about Christ abolishing the "law of commandments" (often understood as the ceremonial laws or the Law that divided Jews and Gentiles). Some interpret this to mean that Jesus' work effectively ended certain parts of the Law, especially those that distinguished Israel from the rest of the world.
Colossians 2:14 – "By canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross."
- Paul here speaks of the "legal demands" being canceled at the cross. Many interpret this to mean that the legal requirements of the Law were nullified through Christ’s sacrifice. While some interpret this as referring to the ceremonial law, others extend it to the whole of the Law.

Why This Interpretation Is Disputed:

Matthew 5:17: Jesus’ statement that He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it creates tension with the view that the Law is entirely ended. In this passage, "fulfill" is more about completing and bringing to fullness the purpose of the Law, rather than abolishing it. Many scholars and theologians argue that Jesus’ purpose was not to end the Law but to fulfill it by embodying its deeper meaning and bringing its ultimate purpose to light.
The Continuation of Moral Law: While many Christians believe that ceremonial aspects of the Law (such as sacrifices, dietary laws, etc.) were fulfilled and no longer apply, the moral teachings (such as the Ten Commandments) are still seen as relevant. Jesus and Paul both emphasize moral behavior in a way that suggests the ethical standards of the Law still have importance for believers, even if the specific rituals and sacrifices are no longer required.
New Covenant: The New Covenant, described in passages like Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-13, is seen as replacing the old system of sacrifices and ceremonial laws. However, this doesn't mean that the moral principles of the Law are abolished, but rather that the sacrificial system and its rituals are fulfilled in Christ.

Conclusion:

Some people interpret "fulfill" as meaning the end or abolition of the commandments because they are influenced by Paul’s writings, where he speaks about the Law no longer binding believers under the New Covenant. The verses in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Colossians are key to understanding this view, as they suggest a shift away from the Old Covenant system of the Law. However, it's important to recognize that the full meaning of "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17 is more about completing and bringing the Law to its intended goal, rather than abolishing it completely. Many argue that Jesus’ fulfillment of the Law doesn't mean its end, but rather its completion and deeper realization through Him.

Cheers.

Bob S · Monday at 7:29 PM

JesusFollowerForever said:
I have proven to you in the proper context the word fulfill does not mean to end, if you do not believe me, then consult a library and see for yourself. Like I pointed out, fulfill had at least 5 different meanings you selected the one that matched what Paul wrote but that contradicts what Jesus wrote that the law would not pass.

UNTIL all that I came to do is fulfilled.

JesusFollowerForever said:
the commandments still stand, that will never change.

Do the feast days still stand?

JesusFollowerForever said:
there are a few different usage for the word Fulfil. since it is a point if disagreement for many I asked an AI to compare the different usages to a verse from Jesus;

Let me provide definitions of "fulfill" from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary and match them to the most appropriate application in the context of Matthew 5:17.

""Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.""

Definitions of "Fulfill" from the Cambridge Dictionary:

To do or achieve what was hoped for or expected.

To do something that is required, promised, or expected.

To make something happen or be true.

To bring something to an end or to completion.

To reach or perform the required standard.

Applying these definitions to Matthew 5:17:

"To do or achieve what was hoped for or expected": This definition fits well with the concept of Jesus fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. The Law and Prophets were pointing toward the coming Messiah, and Jesus achieved exactly what was hoped for and expected by fulfilling their prophecies and intentions. He realized the hope of salvation and righteousness that the Law pointed toward.

"To do something that is required, promised, or expected": This could be applied in the sense that Jesus did what the Law required—living in perfect obedience and fulfilling its moral, ceremonial, and prophetic elements. It highlights the requirement of righteousness that Jesus met and exceeded, bringing the Law to full completion.

"To make something happen or be true": This definition fits because Jesus made the truth of the Law and the Prophets come to reality in His life. He didn't just teach about the Law; He made its fulfillment tangible and real through His actions, bringing about its ultimate purpose.

"To bring something to an end or to completion": This could apply if we focus on how Jesus brought the old system of the Law to its fulfillment, which involved completing its purpose (especially with regard to the sacrificial system). However, while He did bring an end to the sacrificial system, the Law itself was not "ended" but rather completed in Him.

Hold on there JWW, have you forgotten about the qualifier? 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. The feast days, according to your reckoning, must still be in effect. Are you cutting your sideburns? Pass from the Law has the same meaning as pass away, end.

JesusFollowerForever said:
"To reach or perform the required standard": This could be an appropriate application because Jesus perfectly fulfilled the standards of righteousness the Law required, something humanity could never do. His perfect obedience to God’s law exemplified this fulfillment.

Conclusion:

The most appropriate definition from the Cambridge Dictionary for Matthew 5:17 is "To do something that is required, promised, or expected". This reflects how Jesus fulfilled the Law by perfectly meeting its requirements, living out its moral teachings, and fulfilling its prophetic promises. He brought what was required by the Law into reality, completing its intent and bringing it to its fullest expression.

Yes, Jesus accomplished that. He accomplished everything He came to do. Why would Jesus even comment on the passing of the Law if He didn't mean it would at some point end?

JesusFollowerForever said:
Some people interpret the word "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17 as meaning that the commandments and the Law are ended or abolished, and this interpretation is often influenced by certain teachings of Paul, particularly where he speaks about the Law in relation to Christians under the New Covenant.

So, since Paul did teach that the Law ended, was he teaching heresy? I guess Jesus picked the wrong person to spread the Good News.

JesusFollowerForever said:
Why Some People Think "Fulfill" Means the Law is Ended:

The reason some people believe that the word "fulfill" implies the abolition of the Law is because they associate it with Paul’s teachings, which sometimes emphasize that believers are no longer under the Old Covenant laws. This interpretation stems from a belief that Jesus' coming fulfilled and thus ended the old system of the Law, especially in the areas of ceremonial and sacrificial laws. They may argue that, because Jesus fulfilled the Law, believers in Christ are no longer bound by the commandments in the same way.

Especially??? Not one jot..........

JesusFollowerForever said:
Key Verses in Paul’s Letters That Contribute to This Interpretation:

Romans 10:4 – "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

This verse is often cited to suggest that Christ’s work brought the Law to an end, especially in regard to seeking righteousness through the Law. Some interpret "the end of the law" to mean that the Law no longer applies in the same way, as Christ fulfills its demands for righteousness.

Galatians 3:23-25 – "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."

Paul here is saying that the Law acted as a "guardian" until Christ came. After Christ’s coming, believers are no longer under the Law in the same way because they are justified by faith. This suggests a transition from being under the Law to being under grace through faith, which some interpret as the Law being "ended" or no longer applicable in its previous form.

Ephesians 2:15 – "By abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace."

In this passage, Paul speaks about Christ abolishing the "law of commandments" (often understood as the ceremonial laws or the Law that divided Jews and Gentiles). Some interpret this to mean that Jesus' work effectively ended certain parts of the Law, especially those that distinguished Israel from the rest of the world.

Colossians 2:14 – "By canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross."

Paul here speaks of the "legal demands" being canceled at the cross. Many interpret this to mean that the legal requirements of the Law were nullified through Christ’s sacrifice. While some interpret this as referring to the ceremonial law, others extend it to the whole of the Law.

Why This Interpretation Is Disputed:

Matthew 5:17: Jesus’ statement that He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it creates tension with the view that the Law is entirely ended. In this passage, "fulfill" is more about completing and bringing to fullness the purpose of the Law, rather than abolishing it. Many scholars and theologians argue that Jesus’ purpose was not to end the Law but to fulfill it by embodying its deeper meaning and bringing its ultimate purpose to light.

The Continuation of Moral Law: While many Christians believe that ceremonial aspects of the Law (such as sacrifices, dietary laws, etc.) were fulfilled and no longer apply, the moral teachings (such as the Ten Commandments) are still seen as relevant. Jesus and Paul both emphasize moral behavior in a way that suggests the ethical standards of the Law still have importance for believers, even if the specific rituals and sacrifices are no longer required.

New Covenant: The New Covenant, described in passages like Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-13, is seen as replacing the old system of sacrifices and ceremonial laws. However, this doesn't mean that the moral principles of the Law are abolished, but rather that the sacrificial system and its rituals are fulfilled in Christ.

Conclusion:

Some people interpret "fulfill" as meaning the end or abolition of the commandments because they are influenced by Paul’s writings, where he speaks about the Law no longer binding believers under the New Covenant. The verses in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Colossians are key to understanding this view, as they suggest a shift away from the Old Covenant system of the Law. However, it's important to recognize that the full meaning of "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17 is more about completing and bringing the Law to its intended goal, rather than abolishing it completely. Many argue that Jesus’ fulfillment of the Law doesn't mean its end, but rather its completion and deeper realization through Him.

Some people have to cull Paul's writings because they use the wrong meaning of fulfill.

Aaron112 · Monday at 7:44 PM

Wrong meanings can be misleading.

JesusFollowerForever · Tuesday at 9:09 AM

Bob S said:
UNTIL all that I came to do is fulfilled.

Do the feast days still stand?

Hold on there JWW, have you forgotten about the qualifier? 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. The feast days, according to your reckoning, must still be in effect. Are you cutting your sideburns? Pass from the Law has the same meaning as pass away, end.

Yes, Jesus accomplished that. He accomplished everything He came to do. Why would Jesus even comment on the passing of the Law if He didn't mean it would at some point end?

So, since Paul did teach that the Law ended, was he teaching heresy? I guess Jesus picked the wrong person to spread the Good News.

Especially??? Not one jot..........

Some people have to cull Paul's writings because they use the wrong meaning of fulfill.

Like I mentionned all is not accomplished you are like a brick wall and want to stay in the shadows. I guess you want to beleve what you have learned wrongly somewhere at some moment.

What i am trying to say is that you "see" everything through the lens of Paul's views, when you do this you Put Paul above GOD and Jesus. you should do the reverse and compare everything paul says to what Jesus and God said. Do you think or believe Paul has the last word on the Law? or Salvation?

Deu 4:2 You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.
Deu 13:4 You are to follow the LORD your God and fear Him. Keep His commandments and listen to His voice; serve Him and hold fast to Him.
Mat 5:19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
Mat 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

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James 2:21-23 (NKJV)​

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Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Prophets​

Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Law​

What About the Sabbath?​

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Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Prophets​

Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Law​

What About the Sabbath?​

Why Didn’t the Apostles Focus on the Sabbath?​

From Jesus’ Point of View​

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Definitions of "Fulfill" from the Cambridge Dictionary:​

Applying these definitions to Matthew 5:17:​

Conclusion:​

Why Some People Think "Fulfill" Means the Law is Ended:​

Key Verses in Paul’s Letters That Contribute to This Interpretation:​

Why This Interpretation Is Disputed:​

Conclusion:​

Well-Known Member

Definitions of "Fulfill" from the Cambridge Dictionary:​

Applying these definitions to Matthew 5:17:​

Conclusion:​

Why Some People Think "Fulfill" Means the Law is Ended:​

Key Verses in Paul’s Letters That Contribute to This Interpretation:​

Why This Interpretation Is Disputed:​

Conclusion:​

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Definitions of "Fulfill" from the Cambridge Dictionary:

Applying these definitions to Matthew 5:17:

Conclusion:

Why Some People Think "Fulfill" Means the Law is Ended:

Key Verses in Paul’s Letters That Contribute to This Interpretation:

Why This Interpretation Is Disputed:

Conclusion:

Definitions of "Fulfill" from the Cambridge Dictionary:

Applying these definitions to Matthew 5:17:

Conclusion:

Why Some People Think "Fulfill" Means the Law is Ended:

Key Verses in Paul’s Letters That Contribute to This Interpretation:

Why This Interpretation Is Disputed:

Conclusion: