I feel like God is over me

There are two groups of Christians that see themselves in opposition to each other. They are known better by names they have given each other.

Lordship Salvation
Easy believism

It is interesting that both groups have legitimate concerns. The easy believism folks fear that the Lordship salvation people make requirements of "really repenting" or making Jesus lord of your life such that instead of trusting in the grace gospel (1Cor 15:1-4), that people will mistakenly trust in some work they have done.

The Lordship people are fearful that some easy believism people might be mistaken about their faith an go n their merry way without really being saved.

This is also complicated in English as the word faith and believe are used interchangeably. The Greek word pistis carries with it a degree of trust that is not often carried int the English word believe.

One of the limitations of a group approach to Christianity is there can be greater emphasis place on agreeing with a particular doctrine that there can be on learning how to be more like Christ. Getting saved is important, but it is not the end of the Christian journey.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

timf said:

people will mistakenly trust in some work they have done.

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The first thing I learned as a Christian is that good works do not save us. But if we are saved then good works is evidence that we are saved.

sh3nmue said:

I know I whined about this earlier this week but I can't shake the feeling, so many Christians have these experiences that draw them back to God and they get to feel God's presense and pull, I haven't.

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So, right now I need to do what you need to do. I need to trust God to correct me and get me with Him so I am doing what can help you, so I am genuinely caring about you and not only giving you a lecture to show off how much I know.

So, what works for me? Be quiet and know that only You, God, can get me the way You want. And please do this for sh3nmue. We all need what only You are able to do with us.

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7)

God is doing exactly what is right with you, right now. So, trust Him. We trust You, right now, to evaluate and do all that sh3nmue needs.

sh3nmue said:

I realized that Free Grace isn't sound doctrine and was scared to go to Hell, no overwhelming emotions, no reaching the end of myself, just I see Hell. I don't wanna go. God can keep me out of Hell.

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Yes, there is hell. And the Lord "is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." (in 2 Peter 3:9)

God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (in 1 Timothy 2:4)

And Jesus so suffered and died for us, so we don't go to hell. He knows how hell is, and Jesus suffered and died like that so we don't go there.

Note how Jesus did not only fear hell and worry about it, but Jesus has done what works to keep us out of hell. So, fearing and worrying won't work. But what God does with us is what works. God has us trust in Jesus for salvation; this is what works > our Apostle Paul says >

"we who first trusted in Christ" (in Ephesians 1:12).

Whatever gets you away from trusting Jesus, do not trust that. Trust God to have you live His word. Whatever God knows He means, this is, rest in depending on Him to share with you personally while He does what He means with You.

His grace does this with us . . . this personally in us > grace is not distant favor from Heaven, but in us God does all He desires with us >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

God lives in our willing, then. This grace is not distant, then . . . not theoretical only to be explained and argued, but in us grace even works our wills to be obedient in sharing with God. Grace is God, then, in us >

God
Ruling
Almighty
Creative
Encouraging

sh3nmue said:

Let me go to him. I know it's selfish and I'm aware that when I believe and trust in him I am saved. But it feels like he isn't there for me. I read the word and feel nothing in me change. I pray and feel nothing. At this point I feel like I need to make terrible decisions so that I can come to end of myself so that God might accept me.

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Nope > it is not only about being accepted. But God in us does all He means by His word. Even depend on God to have you trust Him the way He wants.

sh3nmue said:

All I wanted is to not go to hell and I don't think God wants that for me

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Amen.

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

Jesus calls to "all" who are laboring and "heavy laden". So, Jesus Himself has hope for you. Love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

So, we have hope for you, no matter how you might be violated by doubts and frustration and fear > do not trust what that stuff tells you, but trust Jesus who cares for us.

timf said:

There are two groups of Christians that see themselves in opposition to each other. They are known better by names they have given each other.

Lordship Salvation
Easy believism

It is interesting that both groups have legitimate concerns. The easy believism folks fear that the Lordship salvation people make requirements of "really repenting" or making Jesus lord of your life such that instead of trusting in the grace gospel (1Cor 15:1-4), that people will mistakenly trust in some work they have done.

The Lordship people are fearful that some easy believism people might be mistaken about their faith an go n their merry way without really being saved.

This is also complicated in English as the word faith and believe are used interchangeably. The Greek word pistis carries with it a degree of trust that is not often carried int the English word believe.

One of the limitations of a group approach to Christianity is there can be greater emphasis place on agreeing with a particular doctrine that there can be on learning how to be more like Christ. Getting saved is important, but it is not the end of the Christian journey.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

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This is nothing new. You can see this in several areas in scripture, the grace and works thing.

And it is an important area because it addresses salvation, but the key is to address it if you feel so led, then leave it in the hands of the Lord's Spirit to enlighten as He sees fit.

And you do need to be addressing in the right Spirit. When i jump into a conversation to offer something up, i can say that as best as i can recollect, I'm in the right spirit, but as disagreements arise the flesh can get in the way and then we try and take the Holy Spirit's role in others lives.

They key is to remain in his love and when you feel the love disappearing, check out and leave it in the hands of the Lord to take that seed you offered and plant it where it is to be planted if it is a good seed.

We can often start out with good intentions and a purity of heart, but then as disagreements arise and if we are not careful, we get our eyes off of helping others and on us, like in defending ourselves. That's the time to take a time out and get back on track, and leave the Holy Spirit's role of enlightening to Him.

But this thing is nothing new. Romans and Galatians are two books i can think of now that address these two errors. They should be addressed, in the right Spirit.

sh3nmue said:

I know I whined about this earlier this week but I can't shake the feeling, so many Christians have these experiences that draw them back to God and they get to feel God's presense and pull, I haven't. I realized that Free Grace isn't sound doctrine and was scared to go to Hell, no overwhelming emotions, no reaching the end of myself, just I see Hell. I don't wanna go. God can keep me out of Hell. Let me go to him. I know it's selfish and I'm aware that when I believe and trust in him I am saved. But it feels like he isn't there for me. I read the word and feel nothing in me change. I pray and feel nothing. At this point I feel like I need to make terrible decisions so that I can come to end of myself so that God might accept me. All I wanted is to not go to hell and I don't think God wants that for me

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Jer 29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

Is there a sin you are holding on to that you have not given over to Christ to help you gain victory over? Sin separates us Isa 59:2, sin is breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 James 2:10-12. I would pray and ask Him to reveal any uncovered sin and ask for His help in gaining victory over it and that you give your will over to Him, surrendering yourself completely to Jesus. Every day, submit yourself to God through prayer, study of His Word and by helping others in need. You keep doing these things you will find yourself in the presence of the Holy Spirit. God bless!

sh3nmue said:

I know I whined about this earlier this week but I can't shake the feeling, so many Christians have these experiences that draw them back to God and they get to feel God's presense and pull, I haven't. I realized that Free Grace isn't sound doctrine and was scared to go to Hell, no overwhelming emotions, no reaching the end of myself, just I see Hell. I don't wanna go. God can keep me out of Hell. Let me go to him. I know it's selfish and I'm aware that when I believe and trust in him I am saved. But it feels like he isn't there for me. I read the word and feel nothing in me change. I pray and feel nothing. At this point I feel like I need to make terrible decisions so that I can come to end of myself so that God might accept me. All I wanted is to not go to hell and I don't think God wants that for me

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I have more time now, but I'll make it short. There are various reasons and some may not have to do with us and what we may be doing wrong, but it is free. The problem may be that you are trying to earn his presence and God does not respond to us trying to earn Him because we can't. We enter into his presence by the sprinkling of his blood and the washing of our conscience (clear conscience).

The book of Hebrews really gets into this. And feelings don't necessarily tell us the truth, but they do reveal what we believe.

Jo555 said:

I have more time now, but I'll make it short. There are various reasons and some may not have to do with us and what we may be doing wrong, but it is free. The problem may be that you are trying to earn his presence and God does not respond to us trying to earn Him because we can't. We enter into his presence by the sprinkling of his blood and the washing of our conscience (clear conscience).

The book of Hebrews really gets into this. And feelings don't necessarily tell us the truth, but they do reveal what we believe.

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Additionally, I don't believe turning to God because we fear hell makes for a strong root system. That root system will be tested and you will have two choices, to continue to ask, seek, and knock, then waiting patiently on Him, or toss it away due to being shipwrecked.

Don't look to live in fear. Fear won't move you forward. It's only for when we are heading backwards, but it cannot propel us forward. Allow God to grow you in faith and trust that is found in the revelation of his love where your roots will go deep into his heart.

And know, the blood of Jesus has you covered for when you do slip, and that blood also gives you a clear conscience before the Lord. Do know i am not saying we shouldn't be sorry, but his Spirit will move us in sorrow within our spirits BECAUSE WE LOVE GOD WITH ALL, AND OTHERS AS OURSELVES.

Having a guilty conscience does not bear fruits unto life, but fruits unto death. I am convinced this is why many do not walk in life in his Spirit. It isn't God holding them at arms length, but their guilty conscience.

It is not so much the sin factor, but the fact that they are trying to overcome sin by the letter of the law with its knowledge of good and evil. And please, don't blame Gid for that. Partaking of the knowledge of good and evil was forbidden fruit. We chose that route, to try and be like God of ourselves. God was working within our choice when he brought in the law as a temp guide, to bring us to the end of ourselves, not to propel us forward.

Hope that isn't too much. I tried to keep it short and simple as i suspected that is what you needed. Hopefully i gave you enough to continue to seek Him on it to reveal his Word to you by his Spirit.

And do know, I'm on that journey of walking and growing in Him too. I don't claim to know it all and have it all right, but i do like to share where i feel it may be of benefit and there may be receptive hearts.

Is actually God's Gift to us to let us know we have sinned, and we repent.
The inactive, or worse maybe: seared conscience , is not good, as noted in Scripture.
Let Jesus teach all the details and simplicity of a clean conscience,
which no man is able to replicate nor do for another man.
Jesus is the only one, 'tween God and man, to help us
and Jesus does a Perfect Solution, which man cannot do ever.

Jo555 said:

Having a guilty conscience

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Aaron112 said:

Is actually God's Gift to us to let us know we have sinned, and we repent.
The inactive, or worse maybe: seared conscience , is not good, as noted in Scripture.
Let Jesus teach all the details and simplicity of a clean conscience,
which no man is able to replicate nor do for another man.
Jesus is the only one, 'tween God and man, to help us
and Jesus does a Perfect Solution, which man cannot do ever.

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A guilty conscience brings us to the end of ourselves, it does not propel us forward. The goal is to walk in his Spirit of love and be changed because of that love.

There is a difference between Godly sorrow that brings life, and guilt and condemnation that brings death.

One is based on love, the other is based on fear of punishment.

Perfect love casts out fear.

If we are not walking in God's love and are looking to commit a sin against another, then guilt for fear of punishment would serve us well, but it cannot move us forward. Guilt and condemnation brings death, not life.

Aaron112 said:

Is actually God's Gift to us to let us know we have sinned, and we repent.
The inactive, or worse maybe: seared conscience , is not good, as noted in Scripture.
Let Jesus teach all the details and simplicity of a clean conscience,
which no man is able to replicate nor do for another man.
Jesus is the only one, 'tween God and man, to help us
and Jesus does a Perfect Solution, which man cannot do ever.

Click to expand...

A guilty conscience brings us to the end of ourselves, it does not propel us forward. The goal is to walk in his Spirit of love and be changed because of that love.

There is a difference between Godly sorrow that brings life, and guilt and condemnation that brings death.

One is based on love, the other is based on fear of punishment.

Perfect love casts out fear

There are many people on this site stuck on a vicious cycle of feeling guilty and condemned and are trying to change of themselves. And there are people loading them up with more guilt and condemnation, which only points us back to ourselves and keeps us on a vicious cycle of defeat and dead works.

The life of a believer is to walk in the Spirit with a clear conscience sprinkled by the blood of Jesus.

That doesn't mean if we give into temptation we feel nothing. We should feel Godly sorrow which is based on God's love. We grieve because we grieved those we love, God and others


It is based on love for God and others.

Guilt and condemnation is based in the self life. It asks. "What is going to hapoen to me?"

God's love in Christ sees beyond itself and says. "I would sacrifice my life for you."

Can God use fear of punishment that comes from guilt?

Sure. Good to fear what is going to happen to you if you are not walking in his love and looking to murder your neighbor, but that is not life in the Spirit. It is life in the law created for the carnal nature and sentences it to death. On the cross with Christ it is to remain, and now we can walk in the Spirit and grieve out of love when we unnecessarily grieve another instead of fearing punishment.

1 Timothy 4:1-2​

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,

There are many people on this site stuck on a vicious cycle of feeling guilty and condemned and are trying to change of themselves. And there are people loading them up with more guilt and condemnation, which only points us back to ourselves and keeps us on a vicious cycle of defeat and dead works.

The life of a believer is to walk in the Spirit with a clear conscience sprinkled by the blood of Jesus.

That doesn't mean if we give into temptation we feel nothing. We should feel Godly sorrow which is based on God's love. We grieve because we grieved those we love, God and others


It is based on love for God and others.

Guilt and condemnation is based in the self life. It asks. "What is going to hapoen to me?"

God's love i. Christ sees beyond itself and says. "I would sacrifice my life for you."

Can God use guilt. Sure. Good to fear what is going to happen to you if you are not walking in his love and looking to murder your neighbor, but that is not life in the Spirit. It is life in the law that sentences us to death. On the cross with Christ it is to remain, and now we can walk in the Spirit and grieve out of love when we unnecessarily grieve another instead of fearing

Jo555 said:

There are many people on this site stuck on a vicious cycle of feeling guilty and condemned and are trying to change of themselves. And there are people loading them up with more guilt and condemnation, which only points us back to ourselves and keeps us on a vicious cycle of defeat and dead works.

The life of a believer is to walk in the Spirit with a clear conscience sprinkled by the blood of Jesus.

That doesn't mean if we give into temptation we feel nothing. We should feel Godly sorrow which is based on God's love. We grieve because we grieved those we love, God and others


It is based on love for God and others.

Guilt and condemnation is based in the self life. It asks. "What is going to hapoen to me?"

God's love in Christ sees beyond itself and says. "I would sacrifice my life for you."

Can God use fear of punishment that comes from guilt?

Sure. Good to fear what is going to happen to you if you are not walking in his love and looking to murder your neighbor, but that is not life in the Spirit. It is life in the law created for the carnal nature and sentences it to death. On the cross with Christ it is to remain, and now we can walk in the Spirit and grieve out of love when we unnecessarily grieve another instead of fearing punishment.

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I would say to all, of course read the scriptures yourself and allow his Spirit to reveal his Word to you. God can use others to help enlighten, but He expects us all to put Him first there, and everywhere for our own good.

That said, when you are feeling guilty and condemned and the fear that comes with it because you couldn't live up to the expectations you may have of yourself, ask God to replace those feelings with his love. Fear is a spirit and it is not one we are to be walking in. Love is also a Spirit and that is God.

God has not given us a spirit of fear, but love, power, and sound mind

Jo555 said:

There are many people on this site stuck on a vicious cycle of feeling guilty and condemned and are trying to change of themselves. And there are people loading them up with more guilt and condemnation, which only points us back to ourselves and keeps us on a vicious cycle of defeat and dead works.

The life of a believer is to walk in the Spirit with a clear conscience sprinkled by the blood of Jesus.

That doesn't mean if we give into temptation we feel nothing. We should feel Godly sorrow which is based on God's love. We grieve because we grieved those we love, God and others


It is based on love for God and others.

Guilt and condemnation is based in the self life. It asks. "What is going to hapoen to me?"

God's love i. Christ sees beyond itself and says. "I would sacrifice my life for you."

Can God use guilt. Sure. Good to fear what is going to happen to you if you are not walking in his love and looking to murder your neighbor, but that is not life in the Spirit. It is life in the law that sentences us to death. On the cross with Christ it is to remain, and now we can walk in the Spirit and grieve out of love when we unnecessarily grieve another instead of fearing

I would say to all, of course read the scriptures yourself and allow his Spirit to reveal his Word to you. God can use others to help enlighten, but He expects us all to put Him first there, and everywhere for our own good.

That said, when you are feeling guilty and condemned and the fear that comes with it because you couldn't live up to the expectations you may have of yourself, ask God to replace those feelings with his love. Fear is a spirit and it is not one we are to be walking in. Love is also a Spirit and that is God.

God has not given us a spirit of fear, but love, power, and sound mind

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Aaron112 said:

1 Timothy 4:1-2​

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,

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If you are not walking in the Spirit, then conscience would serve you well. We are not tossing out that aspect as we are still being perfected in love. But a guilty conscience does not move you forward.

Again, there is a difference between grieving over our sin due to love for God and others, and feeling guilty and condemned and fearing punishment.

The former brings life. The latter brings death

Jo555 said:

If you are not walking in the Spirit, then conscience would serve you well. We are not tossing out that aspect as we are still being perfected in love. But a guilty conscience does not move you forward.

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You can keep repeating false things all you want, and they will not become true things nor true teachings.

Aaron112 said:

You can keep repeating false things all you want, and they will not become true things nor true teachings.

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I may say things once, twice, possibly three times if i feel compelled, but then i know i can't take the role of the Holy Spirit and make people see. I have given you food to consider with the Lord. Search the scriptures with Him for yourselves and ask Him to lead you into all truth.

Jo555 said:

I may say things once, twice, possibly three times if i feel compelled, but then i know i can't take the role of the Holy Spirit and make people see. I have given you food to consider with the Lord. Search the scriptures with Him for yourselves and ask Him to lead you into all truth.

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No one should eat your food. It's not even pallatable.

Aaron112 said:

No one should eat your food. It's not even pallatable.

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God bless you Aaron. I sense that comes from a well intended heart.

I know the Lord can take my words and confirm it Himself or not.

Additionally, i will say if you are walking in constant fear of punishment, that a spirit of fear is at work in your life. Turn to God to find freedom from that spirit.

I'm not talking of a fear from time to time that may serve us well if we are not walking in love, but as a believer if your life is more based in fear rather than love, ask God to free you from that spirit of fear

I'm running out of time now as need to move on to other things today, but will look to revisit and if i feel compelled, will chip in again

Gods presence is special for the pure of heart and body. It took me many years to learn this. You know? After the last of that type of relationship I was in I left the church for 8 1/2 years and I was miserable. But I kept my body free of women during that time. But that was the lesson I had to learn. Then God saved me and brought me back to church and to His presence.

JesusFollowerForever said:

Free grace is not a sound doctrine! it is why James said faith without works is dead!!!!
it is because of these false doctrine that people are discouraged and are lost.

Faith Without Works Is Dead​

James 2:14-26​

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Footnotes​

1. James 2:18 NU omits your
2. James 2:18 NU omits my
3. James 2:20 NU useless
4. James 2:22 complete
5. James 2:23 credited

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To put faith and works and salvation as simply as i can, it all comes down to the matter of the heart. If you are counting on your works to save you; if your purpose for performing works is to earn salvation, then you have fallen from grace and counting on works. You are basically saying you died for nothing Jesus, i can do it on my own.

Now if your good works are the result of your faith, then that is faith manifested in the natural as good works.

Basically, what i see James saying here is the evidence of faith will show in works. The life of the Spirit, that drives us by his love (he speaks of love before these verses) will manifest in good works / fruit.

Yes, faith and works do go hand-in-hand, but it is the power of faith that manifests in good works / fruit.

We are saved by grace, through faith, unto good works.

Works is the evidence that one has faith. Faith is like the substance of the spiritual that manifests in the natural.

If one does not have good works, then we need to examine our faith.