The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

You didn’t address my argument. You did not know nor ever hear the timeline of the Bible’s numbers of its prophecy I put up there unless you read something from me in the past. You don’t acknowledge that things got even worse for true believers after Jesus came and there was nothing in history that ever happened where the 100’s of chapters of earthly promises and prophecy made to the saints came even close to being fulfilled in a general manner until just recently in the earths history. You want proof of this in prophecy? The ten Roman Emperors in Daniel 7 and the latter half of Revelation are out ahead of the time of John’s vision. Making the war against the saints started by that 11th emperor still in the apostles future. I have explained that in a precise manner like no one else that I know of has that, that is now our past, but not John’s. Did you ever read it before you jumped into your full preterist declarations?

You want proof of this in prophecy? The ten Roman Emperors in Daniel 7 and the latter half of Revelation are out ahead of the time of John’s vision.

Click to expand...

That's not proof.
That's another assertion.

”And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17‬:‭7‬, ‭10‬-‭12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The ten, ahead of the time John received his vision. The eighth king (emperor) is Titus who as the prince of Daniel 9 that destroyed the city and the sanctuary..

Since you are a preterist you don’t believe this. But many people try to make these kings into kingdoms to somehow fit their false end time teachings. They start naming Assyria, the Holy Roman Empire etc. But that is a direct contradiction to Daniel which states 4 empires, then when the forth ends the kingdom of God as defined in the 100+ chapters of prophecy about it starts to fill the earth and overcome the resistance against it.

FIRST - THE CONTEXT OF REVELATION 17 IN REVELATION
All quotes below from here: Revelation - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway. The ESV Reformation Study Bible is a great free resource. Basically - as a rough guide - Revelation is historically describing Rome but not prescribing her or history. It’s plucking at bits of contemporary history - but also speaking theologically about how to think about this period of history we live in between Christ’s Resurrection and his Return. These “Last Days” we’ve been in for 2000 years and counting. Anyway - The ESV RSB says:- -

17:1–19:10 Babylon the prostitute appears, representing the seductions of the world (17:4; 18:3; see Introduction: Characteristics and Themes: Other Features). “Babylon” is probably a symbol for the city of Rome (17:9 note, 17:18) with its immorality. Paganism made each of the cities of Asia Minor into a small manifestation of this Babylon. Full economic and social participation (13:17) involved attendance at pagan religious feasts and celebrations. Worship of the emperor was an expected expression of political allegiance. Pagans called Christians atheists because they did not worship the many gods, and called them haters of humankind because they withdrew from compromised forms of social life (1 Pet. 2:12; 4:3, 4). In reaction to this pressure, some professing Christians argued that participation in idolatrous feasts and sexual immorality were acceptable (2:12, 20; 1 Cor. 6:12–20). The woman Jezebel in 2:20–23 was a key seducer whose work is generalized and more deeply symbolized in Babylon the prostitute (2:21, 22; cf. 17:2).

A few interpreters favor identifying Babylon, “the great prostitute,” with Jerusalem. In refusing to accept the Messiah, she became a prostitute in the imagery of the Old Testament (Is. 1:21; Ezek. 16; 23; Hos. 2; cf. Luke 11:47–51; 21:9–18). But Jerusalem was only one instance of a society seducing people away from true worship. Ancient Babylon was another, and accordingly Revelation takes up the language of the prophetic condemnations of Babylon and Tyre (Jer. 50; 51; Ezek. 27). Modern cities with their false religions and sexual exploitation are also forms of Babylon. Thus the symbolism of Babylon is capable of many historical embodiments, including the final, climactic manifestation of this “Babylon” just before the Second Coming.

When the destruction of false worship is complete (17:1–18:24), the true worshipers, the bride of the Lamb, stand out in their splendor and joy (19:1–10).

SECOND - SOME SPECIFIC NOTES ON REV 17

17:8 was, and is not, and is about to rise. The description is a counterfeit of the sovereignty of God, which is proclaimed in 1:4, 8; 4:8. “And is not” indicates that persecution is at an ebb but will rise with renewed intensity in the future. The beast represents a repeated pattern of persecution, as did the four successive beasts of Dan. 7 (13:2 note). 17:9 seven mountains. Rome was built on seven mountains, or hills.

17:10 five of whom have fallen. If Revelation was written about a.d. 67, these five may be the first five Roman emperors, beginning with Julius Caesar. The sixth is Nero, the currently reigning emperor. But it might also be the case that five simply represents an indefinite number of previous persecuting states (such as the beasts of Dan. 7). The presence of the sixth indicates in symbolic fashion that Christians are near the end, but not quite there.

17:12 ten horns. The number “ten” goes back through v. 7 and 13:1 to Dan. 7:7, 24. But the beast of Revelation cannot simply be identified with the fourth beast of Daniel; rather, he is a combination of the characteristics of all four of Daniel’s beasts. In Revelation, the ten horns are kingly confederates of the beast. In view of 16:12, 14, 16; 19:19; 20:8, the political powers beyond the borders of the Roman Empire are most directly in mind. Rome was eventually overrun by barbarian tribes. But the picture rises beyond the limitations of Rome and opens up a picture of the final battle in which the beast will enlist large-scale assistance.

Daniel Martinovich said:

You didn’t address my argument. You did not know nor ever hear the timeline of the Bible’s numbers of its prophecy I put up there unless you read something from me in the past. You don’t acknowledge that things got even worse for true believers after Jesus came and there was nothing in history that ever happened where the 100’s of chapters of earthly promises and prophecy made to the saints came even close to being fulfilled in a general manner until just recently in the earths history.

Click to expand...

What is said about Christian persecution that goes on in many places in this world? This is evidence that the polarity in the US and voiced hatred of Christians in some places can lead to persecution of Christians at some point, depending on some situation of who is governing over us. But things are growing unstable, which can be seen in many ways.

Even if we ignore there is persecution and will be, which believers are not just snatched out from to be with the Lord, and that reference to what is gets called the rapture is about other circumstances, there will be great troubles ahead even for believers besides, and still there is not rapture for delivering any out from that. Rather there is obedience to be had among believers. People of God are to be told to come out, that is about their obedience to that, not a deliverance all up to God. All are supposed to come out from where we do not belong. Isaiah 24 shows it is all the inhabited cities of civilization that according to the promise, which the prophecy is, that will collapse.

There are sustainable ways to live, which are not possible being with cities, from which there is significant destruction to this earth to maintain, which God really hates! (Revelation 11:18) There can be the things we need that we are growing, the pattern shown for us from the start, and I know ways for that which I have been learning. We should not take more than that, it would add to the destruction in the earth, which we are supposed to have stewardship for, that has been failed and still people remain with cities of civilization that has been the reason for failure, we who are God's people do not belong with it and if we are still we must come out, that is our responsibility.

FredVB said:

There are sustainable ways to live, which are not possible being with cities, from which there is significant destruction to this earth to maintain, which God really hates! (Revelation 11:18) There can be the things we need that we are growing, the pattern shown for us from the start, and I know ways for that which I have been learning. We should not take more than that, it would add to the destruction in the earth, which we are supposed to have stewardship for, that has been failed and still people remain with cities of civilization that has been the reason for failure, we who are God's people do not belong with it and if we are still we must come out, that is our responsibility.

Click to expand...

I don't think this thread is about city design. But while I hear your concern for the impact of building cities, there can be great cities with vastly less impact - and living in cities is the only way we're going to enjoy the economic benefits we need to build the renewables we need to run the kind of earth-friendly eco-industries we need. This is a huge conversation, and probably not that relevant to this thread though.

This thread involves partial preterism and I am speaking to eschatology, I do think everyone speaking about eschatology has it wrong, so I would not extrapolate how all of prophecy works out. Those holding to partial preterism would it seem be more open to how we should see Mystery Babylon then those who think rapture of believers by God is going to happen solving everything for them and they don't have to deal with everything that others will. I don't argue against a rapture but that is a terrible horrible view. There is obedience God's people should show for coming out from where they do not belong. Revelation 18 is clearly connected to Isaiah 24, if that is read, one can understand there is great calamitous collapse coming to all inhabited cities of civilization. God would not do anything to help them, it shows what scientists all see is right, that there is the unsustainable way of cities that contribute to crises developing in the world which leads to collapse, and God hates the destruction to this world of God's creation, clearly against the stewardship required of us shown from the beginning and what Revelation 11:18 shows. Coming out would not mean moving to another city or starting any further cities, it will mean sustainable small communities away from cities and living in simplicity we are supposed to have and growing things for what is needed. The one who is spoken of the beast will gather a following seducing any with promises of rebuilding civilization, but anything of that would be godless.

Any cities made using modern technology which has been using resources up destructive in this world to solve the issues from that is not a great solution, it is using what creates the problems to solve the problems. We should have technology of things we, as small communities, can make ourselves, and we should have minimal effect on environments. Good stewardship which is required of us is only present in that way.

FredVB said:

This thread involves partial preterism and I am speaking to eschatology, I do think everyone speaking about eschatology has it wrong, so I would not extrapolate how all of prophecy works out. Those holding to partial preterism would it seem be more open to how we should see Mystery Babylon then those who think rapture of believers by God is going to happen solving everything for them and they don't have to deal with everything that others will. I don't argue against a rapture but that is a terrible horrible view. There is obedience God's people should show for coming out from where they do not belong. Revelation 18 is clearly connected to Isaiah 24, if that is read, one can understand there is great calamitous collapse coming to all inhabited cities of civilization. God would not do anything to help them, it shows what scientists all see is right, that there is the unsustainable way of cities that contribute to crises developing in the world which leads to collapse, and God hates the destruction to this world of God's creation, clearly against the stewardship required of us shown from the beginning and what Revelation 11:18 shows. Coming out would not mean moving to another city or starting any further cities, it will mean sustainable small communities away from cities and living in simplicity we are supposed to have and growing things for what is needed. The one who is spoken of the beast will gather a following seducing any with promises of rebuilding civilization, but anything of that would be godless.

Any cities made using modern technology which has been using resources up destructive in this world to solve the issues from that is not a great solution, it is using what creates the problems to solve the problems. We should have technology of things we, as small communities, can make ourselves, and we should have minimal effect on environments. Good stewardship which is required of us is only present in that way.

Click to expand...

It's the godlessness of Babylon that gets her judged - not the fact that she is a city. What comes down from heaven that represents the great marriage of Heaven and Earth? The new Jerusalem - a city so enormous it covered the whole known world back then. It's all symbolism anyway. I've heard theologians say paradise will be us enjoying God in a new creation and we will not need cities - and others that say there will still be physical bodies, physical needs, and ways to serve each other in real flesh and blood ways. So I don't know. But that's then.

Now? The Lord could return in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - so we need to do better. But your idea of smaller towns relying on local produce? That's a form of Collapse of Civilisation anyway! Not in the Mad Max and people starving to death sense, but in that a larger administrative structure collapses. I don't think that would be a good thing. When we rely on nature - we'll eat her to death. As we learn to come out of her and live in cities built from the right materials and right energy, we'll reduce the impact enormously. Renewable energy built from renewable materials - and we can still have interesting conversations like this over the internet. Or did you want to ban this as well? Because there's no way with current technology that we can build computers in our local village economy.

eclipsenow said:

It's the godlessness of Babylon that gets her judged - not the fact that she is a city. What comes down from heaven that represents the great marriage of Heaven and Earth? The new Jerusalem - a city so enormous it covered the whole known world back then. It's all symbolism anyway. I've heard theologians say paradise will be us enjoying God in a new creation and we will not need cities - and others that say there will still be physical bodies, physical needs, and ways to serve each other in real flesh and blood ways. So I don't know. But that's then.

Now? The Lord could return in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - so we need to do better. But your idea of smaller towns relying on local produce? That's a form of Collapse of Civilisation anyway! Not in the Mad Max and people starving to death sense, but in that a larger administrative structure collapses. I don't think that would be a good thing. When we rely on nature - we'll eat her to death. As we learn to come out of her and live in cities built from the right materials and right energy, we'll reduce the impact enormously. Renewable energy built from renewable materials - and we can still have interesting conversations like this over the internet. Or did you want to ban this as well? Because there's no way with current technology that we can build computers in our local village economy.

Click to expand...

You still neglect points I made. In that same book, the book of Revelation, it is spelled out that God hates the destruction to the earth, as if the beginning of the Bible would not tell us that. There is in fact the destruction to the earth, more obvious now than in preceding centuries. And our modern living contributes to that, like preceding generations did not. They did but nowhere nearly so obvious. And the parallel to Isaiah 24 is being completely neglected still, it shows the collapse of all the cities.

For destruction to this earth to stop as needed, civilization does need to collapse.

FredVB said:

You still neglect points I made. In that same book, the book of Revelation, it is spelled out that God hates the destruction to the earth, as if the beginning of the Bible would not tell us that.

Click to expand...

I agree but you're ignoring what I said! We can live on a fraction of the land, using a fraction of the non-renewable resources, and we can rehabilitate old mines if we save enough money by living in Ecocities. Dense walkability and public transport allows a modern economy to flourish in more sustainable ways.

We can recycle steel and concrete etc.

FredVB said:

There is in fact the destruction to the earth, more obvious now than in preceding centuries.

Click to expand...

The main thing I'm concerned about is biodiversity loss - as extinction is irreplaceable.

But other than that - I've seen mines and quarries turned into beautiful parks. Indeed - one mine brought sand in to landscape it. There were Australian skink lizards and their eggs in this sand. The original area had some other bad things happening with developments and pests - and the lizards went extinct there - but were saved because of the quarry being rehabilitated into a local park.

Mining does not have to mean the END of that place forever - just that we have to rebuild and rehabilitate it. It can be quite beautiful after!

And as the Energy Transition unfolds - we'll gradually recycle the first generation of wind and solar and EV batteries - and do less and less mining.

You should not be howling against our cities which only use 3% of the land - but against the livestock grazing that uses 34% of the land. Fortunately I can see a lot of that being replaced in coming years.

There are 2 amazing new sources of protein we can use to supplement our food.

SEAWEED can be dried into protein powder. This can be mixed into everything like bread and milk and protein bars in much the same way that soy protein is. However this does not use arable land like soy beans. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666833522000302 Just 2% of the oceans would provide 12 BILLION people all the protein they need, while restoring the ocean ecosystem. ‘Sea forest’ would be better name than seaweed, says UN food adviser

PRECISION FERMENTATION is a way to turn vat-grown bacteria into things like chicken nuggets or bacon strips. Think of it as “electric food” that feeds off renewable electricity (more accurately - the green hydrogen we make with it.) Some power, some water, a sprinkling of minerals - and the bacteria cooks up “Solein”. This is “65 percent protein, 20–25 percent carbohydrates and 5–10 percent fats.” Solar Foods - Wikipedia
It could grow all the calories we need from factories the size of Greater London. We’ll still grow crops and vegetables and herbs and spices for flavour and texture and micronutrients - but Solein could be the bulk proteins that replace livestock grazing. If it bankrupted most livestock we could return 34% of the land on earth to nature. This would sequester “332–547 Gt CO2” which would help bring us back to 1.5 degrees - as we currently seem to be on target for about 2 degrees of warming. The carbon opportunity cost of animal-sourced food production on land - Nature Sustainability

It would also give us all the wood we need to build wood residential skyscrapers and bridges out of CLT - a whole new material that makes wood as strong as steel - but lighter and more flexible and attractive for housing. Wood!

FredVB said:

And our modern living contributes to that, like preceding generations did not. They did but nowhere nearly so obvious. And the parallel to Isaiah 24 is being completely neglected still, it shows the collapse of all the cities.

Click to expand...

Isaiah was prophesying against the nations of the time and does not apply now.
But the general principle of good stewardship does - which is why I'm into renewable energy made from renewable materials, and then rehabilitating mining sites afterwards. I'm also behind huge conservation areas - there's the 30% movement trying to make about a third of our land and sea protected from mining or farming. Stuff like that.

FredVB said:

For destruction to this earth to stop as needed, civilization does need to collapse.

Click to expand...

No. It. Doesn't!
If the cities starved - and people rushed out into the wild-life - they'd eat everything they found.
Remember Castor and Pollux - the elephants in the Paris zoo.
When a population starves, they eat the zoo animals.

Are there things in the Bible telling us to live like that? I don't see those things said for us. I do not eat things from animals. Of course, that is never sustainable, and not even healthier for us. I have been talking about growing everything that is needed for us.

FredVB said:

Are there things in the Bible telling us to live like that?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you are referring to - the Ecocities or New Urban plans I discuss - or the other food sources?

Are there things in the Bible telling us to use the internet that allows us to have this conversation? I don't see the internet in the bible for us! Is this sustainable?

"Sustainable" means able to be replicated for as long as the Lord gives us in human history. Even though (as an Amil) I think he could return in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - we just don't know! My hobby is looking at sustainable technologies.

The bible is quite clear we are allowed to eat animals now - if we can do so in a way that is ethical and does not totally wipe out nature.

FredVB said:

I don't see those things said for us. I do not eat things from animals. Of course, that is never sustainable, and not even healthier for us. I have been talking about growing everything that is needed for us.

Click to expand...

Good for you! I mean it, and encourage vegetarianism on my blog. Unfortunately my wife has type 2 diabetes and we tried it but a lot of the alternative protein "meat patties" etc have way too many sugars etc for a diabetic. The doctor says she should have some chicken or fish in her diet. Boy - the oceans are not doing well. So we try to limit the fish. We know that chicken has a vastly lower impact than beef.

Also - there are some people with health conditions that are basically allergic to everything BUT meat! (I think Jordan Peterson's daughter has some health condition like this?) So I don't want to create universal food laws! But the general trend should be less meat and more chicken, and when possible - only chicken a few times a week and more tofu etc.

Yet if the PF above comes down in cost - it could offer all the 'bacon' and 'chicken' we could want. They have opened their first factory. Now it's all about scaling up to bring the cost down. This could save the biosphere!
Spend some time on this website.

eclipsenow said:

I'm not sure what you are referring to - the Ecocities or New Urban plans I discuss - or the other food sources?

Are there things in the Bible telling us to use the internet that allows us to have this conversation? I don't see the internet in the bible for us! Is this sustainable?

"Sustainable" means able to be replicated for as long as the Lord gives us in human history. Even though (as an Amil) I think he could return in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - we just don't know! My hobby is looking at sustainable technologies.

The bible is quite clear we are allowed to eat animals now - if we can do so in a way that is ethical and does not totally wipe out nature.



Good for you! I mean it, and encourage vegetarianism on my blog. Unfortunately my wife has type 2 diabetes and we tried it but a lot of the alternative protein "meat patties" etc have way too many sugars etc for a diabetic. The doctor says she should have some chicken or fish in her diet. Boy - the oceans are not doing well. So we try to limit the fish. We know that chicken has a vastly lower impact than beef.

Also - there are some people with health conditions that are basically allergic to everything BUT meat! (I think Jordan Peterson's daughter has some health condition like this?) So I don't want to create universal food laws! But the general trend should be less meat and more chicken, and when possible - only chicken a few times a week and more tofu etc.

Yet if the PF above comes down in cost - it could offer all the 'bacon' and 'chicken' we could want. They have opened their first factory. Now it's all about scaling up to bring the cost down. This could save the biosphere!
Spend some time on this website.

Home - Solar Foods

solarfoods.com

Click to expand...

I am referring to the Bible showing us what God gave us to do at the start. God did not change that somewhere, but people did start turning from it. Sometimes God interrupted that, but prophecy does show there is coming collapse that God would not keep from happening. The prophecy in Isaiah 24 is not about something that happened before, it is about what will come to the earth, and the parallels when you see them show it is about the same thing in Revelation 18, the collapse is coming.

I can use the communication available for saying needed things, where more may hear it. But I know these things can't last either. In person communities were what we need that was meant for us, and there should be communities of God's people.

I don't tell others how they must choose. But consider what you would find looking through Home
Forks Over Knives

FredVB said:

I am referring to the Bible showing us what God gave us to do at the start.

Click to expand...

Eden was a different state of being. God was with us in the garden. The garden was a special place - and we are now outside the garden with the weeds and other harsher processes of nature. We need housing to protect ourselves - did Adam and Eve even have a house? Did Jesus ever condemn cities?

FredVB said:

The prophecy in Isaiah 24 is not about something that happened before, it is about what will come to the earth,

Click to expand...

Well - yes and no.
I actually think it is more cosmic than a sign of God condemning cities. Again - it's ungodly cities. Isaiah starts of condemning Jerusalem for their idolatry and abandoning the law. Then by the time we get to 24 it's more universal and archetypal. That is - the bad city represents ALL ungodliness and bad cities around the world - and their destruction and replacement seems to be about how God is promises to replace them with .... tiny farmer's villages? Little permaculture townships?

NO - a bigger better Jerusalem and TEMPLE!

I think it's heavenly language.

eclipsenow said:

Eden was a different state of being. God was with us in the garden. The garden was a special place - and we are now outside the garden with the weeds and other harsher processes of nature. We need housing to protect ourselves - did Adam and Eve even have a house? Did Jesus ever condemn cities?


Well - yes and no.
I actually think it is more cosmic than a sign of God condemning cities. Again - it's ungodly cities. Isaiah starts of condemning Jerusalem for their idolatry and abandoning the law. Then by the time we get to 24 it's more universal and archetypal. That is - the bad city represents ALL ungodliness and bad cities around the world - and their destruction and replacement seems to be about how God is promises to replace them with .... tiny farmer's villages? Little permaculture townships?

NO - a bigger better Jerusalem and TEMPLE!

I think it's heavenly language.

Click to expand...

I hope you looked at the link, it the site I refer to that is among a great amount of information I have about this way without animal products being healthy for pretty much everyone, diabetics are not an exception to this. But it excludes processed stuff for food. Do not use those alternative meat patties! It is not hard to plan for adequate protein, while protein is in all whole foods. Eating plant-based has enough of it with getting the variety needed each day.

You assumed I speak of just Eden, and while that perfect design is a model for us, looking at the context before and after the fall should be considered, that which I meant was missed. I said there was no change God gave for us from that, clearly there was change with no longer getting to be in Eden after the fall, so I was not talking about that. Would you think I was unfamiliar with that change? But there was no change from God when God said this:

Genesis 3:17
"Because you have listened to your wife’s voice, and have eaten from the tree, about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ the ground is cursed for your sake. You will eat from it with much labor all the days of your life. It will yield thorns and thistles to you; and you will eat the herb of the field."

There are no cities that are not with ungodliness. There is that horrible history of cities in general listed with the characteristics in Revelation 18, there is no way that would be determined as one city from that list, and the collapse of one city is not even so noteworthy. The merchants in all the world will wail, though. Yes, there are godly people in some of them. To be obedient as God's people though, since they do not belong there, they need to come out. And now it is more immediate, it will have to be soon. You will be too late making what you assume would be ecocities with new urban planning to be sustainable. We need to be really sustainable where we grow our food and make our own things without any further dependence on civilization, as soon as we can manage that. It can take time, sure, so there should be the start to that quickly, we cannot just assume there would be plenty of time, it really would not be.

What is said with symbolic language in the book of Revelation is beyond our present understanding and so words used mean something more than what we would understand. I see some things about it I have found others do not still.

FredVB said:

There are no cities that are not with ungodliness.

Click to expand...

Agreed. And no individual human heart that is without ungodliness.

FredVB said:

There is that horrible history of cities in general listed with the characteristics in Revelation 18,

Click to expand...

Sure - and that is why the Lord is warning us that those great empires (like Rome) will all be judged! Do NOT trust in the wealth and 'security' of these empires - and ignore the Lord. For that is building your house on the sand. Do NOT side with those empires that persecute God's people.

FredVB said:

there is no way that would be determined as one city from that list, and the collapse of one city is not even so noteworthy.

Click to expand...

I disagree. John is writing that even the great cities like Rome will fall before God's judgement. One day. It's symbolic imagery of the final destiny of the regimes and rulers and people groups that turn against God.

FredVB said:

The merchants in all the world will wail, though.

Click to expand...

That's imagery of Babylon aka Rome's final judgment - but on Judgement Day I doubt actual merchant will be looking at the great city from a distance - wailing that it is on fire!

FredVB said:

Yes, there are godly people in some of them.

Click to expand...

Exactly! To be obedient, Paul went to the different big cities and started churches there. That is why half the books in the New Testament are named after the biggest cities in the ancient world! That is why the letter to the seven churches are all in big cities! Indeed - their (correct) strategy of focussing on starting churches where the most people were to save as many as soon as possible had this weird linguistic side effect. Not only is half the New Testament named after the letters to various churches in various CITIES - but our word for un-churched people is pagan. Pagan has its roots in the word for country-dweller!

FredVB said:

To be obedient as God's people though, since they do not belong there, they need to come out.

Click to expand...

Incorrect! To be obedient as God's gospel-sharing people, they need to share the gospel in a strategic, organised, passionate way. In the cities! You are in effect harming our fulfilment of the Great Commission and reversing the Apostles strategy. If there had been ANY biblical hint that we as Christians had to leave the big cities as a matter of Christian duty - how on earth did half the New Testament end up named after big cities?

Also - as the history of monasteries shows - we take the evil in our hearts with us. The Catholic monasteries show that while most of these organisations started with the best of intentions, many actually became quite wealthy because they had a dedicated and highly educated free workforce within their walls - and made fantastic books, wines, food, etc - and some were corrupted by the wealth they created themselves and received as donations from the surrounding communities.

Some also did a lot of good - and historically we owe the monastic movement for preserving the great works of philosophy from ancient Greece. But you can see the problem. Anywhere we run to - WE will be there!

FredVB said:

And now it is more immediate, it will have to be soon.

Click to expand...

Maybe - maybe not. It depends how fast we act to prevent climate change as to what cities end up moving. But I think it would be cheaper for them to 'fortify' against the great Wet-Bulb Killer Heatwaves that are coming. Change building codes to include regulations about passive-solar-thermal-cooling, have great off-grid "emergency bunkers" like shopping malls and their underground car-parks that can be fitted out for when the killer heatwave hits - much like southern states in America have hurricane shelters, etc. Because the grid WILL go down when one of these hits!

FredVB said:

You will be too late making what you assume would be ecocities with new urban planning to be sustainable.

Click to expand...

Maybe - but I'm more optimistic than I was 20 years ago when I had my 'environmental awakening.' I used to hassle my brother in law about retrofitting his hobby farm as a permaculture survivalist compound! I really thought it was all going down. But while I have nothing against Christians who take that position and build a permaculture farm and use Prepper techniques to store food for years etc in case of emergency - back in the 1920's that was seen as just plain good economic common sense for farmers. It was a store of food-wealth you could rely on when the weather turned bad. So I have no issues with Christians doing this - but I draw the line when they start telling me this is what the bible commands - based on their wonky reading of Revelation 18! Honestly - Revelation has to be the most misunderstood book in the bible.

If confused about something biblical - don't you think it's better to go by the clear, rather than the unclear?
The clear message of Jesus is the Great Commission. The clear strategy of Acts and Paul is to create churches in big cities. That's it - end of story!

FredVB said:

We need to be really sustainable where we grow our food and make our own things without any further dependence on civilization,

Click to expand...

No. See above. If Sydney goes down, I go down with her. But not in the Apocalyptic judgement sense - because that's about God's judgement - even though it uses the language of a city collapsing Mad Max style. Revelation 18 is less about the temporal collapse of Rome - say like when the barbarians invaded in 476 AD - as it is about the regime's eternal fate. Indeed - her temporal fate was deeply conflicting to Christians of the day because Rome had shifted from being a 'beast state' as John perceived her, to being more of a Christian city! There were theologians that confused the Kingdom of God with the Kingdom of Rome - which is why St Augustine's "City of God" was so important!

FredVB said:

as soon as we can manage that. It can take time, sure, so there should be the start to that quickly, we cannot just assume there would be plenty of time, it really would not be.

Click to expand...

I have no personal knowledge of farming in real life in real small scale farms. Nor a desire to to so. I will not abandon my obligations to my mother and father in law in care, nor my own elderly father. I have a set up that allows my newly married son affordable rent in Sydney of all places(!) from our newly built granny-flat - just for my dear son and daughter-in-law. I have unsaved family and friends in the area that I have been slowly witnessing to for years. I would be abandoning all that just to take the SELFISH and SELF-INDULGENT step of moving out to secure my own food in an attempt that might actually backfire, not work, and not have gospel priorities in the first place!

FredVB said:

What is said with symbolic language in the book of Revelation is beyond our present understanding

Click to expand...

Oh piffle - or why would John have written it?

This next guy has a Phd in Jewish symbolism - please watch! Here's a challenge. Grab your favourite drink and snack, and watch these. They're only about 11 minutes each. Do not be deceived by the simplistic storytelling structure of these videos. This guy has a Phd in Jewish Apocalyptic Symbolism. He even corrected a few (tiny) interpretative nuances from of my favourite theologians - people I know personally. It might feel like you're back in Sunday School because of the illustration style - but if you take it in - it's actually quite deep. This is pretty much the historical Amillennial position.



My favourite theologian on Revelation also has a Phd in history and taught secular history courses at Macquarie University for decades. Somehow he also became a Sydney Anglican Bishop in his very busy life. I know his family and have met him a few times - and he is just a lovely fellow.
Seriously - buy this - and do it as a personal quiet time. You will be blown away by some of the insights Paul has. There are only a few differences with the guy above, and yet both are worth reading.

eclipsenow said:

I disagree. John is writing that even the great cities like Rome will fall before God's judgement. One day. It's symbolic imagery of the final destiny of the regimes and rulers and people groups that turn against God.

That's imagery of Babylon aka Rome's final judgment - but on Judgement Day I doubt actual merchant will be looking at the great city from a distance - wailing that it is on fire!

Incorrect! To be obedient as God's gospel-sharing people, they need to share the gospel in a strategic, organised, passionate way. In the cities! You are in effect harming our fulfilment of the Great Commission and reversing the Apostles strategy. If there had been ANY biblical hint that we as Christians had to leave the big cities as a matter of Christian duty - how on earth did half the New Testament end up named after big cities?

Also - as the history of monasteries shows - we take the evil in our hearts with us. The Catholic monasteries show that while most of these organisations started with the best of intentions, many actually became quite wealthy because they had a dedicated and highly educated free workforce within their walls - and made fantastic books, wines, food, etc - and some were corrupted by the wealth they created themselves and received as donations from the surrounding communities.

Some also did a lot of good - and historically we owe the monastic movement for preserving the great works of philosophy from ancient Greece. But you can see the problem. Anywhere we run to - WE will be there!

Maybe - maybe not. It depends how fast we act to prevent climate change as to what cities end up moving. But I think it would be cheaper for them to 'fortify' against the great Wet-Bulb Killer Heatwaves that are coming. Change building codes to include regulations about passive-solar-thermal-cooling, have great off-grid "emergency bunkers" like shopping malls and their underground car-parks that can be fitted out for when the killer heatwave hits - much like southern states in America have hurricane shelters, etc. Because the grid WILL go down when one of these hits!

Maybe - but I'm more optimistic than I was 20 years ago when I had my 'environmental awakening.' I used to hassle my brother in law about retrofitting his hobby farm as a permaculture survivalist compound! I really thought it was all going down. But while I have nothing against Christians who take that position and build a permaculture farm and use Prepper techniques to store food for years etc in case of emergency - back in the 1920's that was seen as just plain good economic common sense for farmers. It was a store of food-wealth you could rely on when the weather turned bad. So I have no issues with Christians doing this - but I draw the line when they start telling me this is what the bible commands - based on their wonky reading of Revelation 18! Honestly - Revelation has to be the most misunderstood book in the bible.

If confused about something biblical - don't you think it's better to go by the clear, rather than the unclear?
The clear message of Jesus is the Great Commission. The clear strategy of Acts and Paul is to create churches in big cities. That's it - end of story!

No. See above. If Sydney goes down, I go down with her. But not in the Apocalyptic judgement sense - because that's about God's judgement - even though it uses the language of a city collapsing Mad Max style. Revelation 18 is less about the temporal collapse of Rome - say like when the barbarians invaded in 476 AD - as it is about the regime's eternal fate. Indeed - her temporal fate was deeply conflicting to Christians of the day because Rome had shifted from being a 'beast state' as John perceived her, to being more of a Christian city! There were theologians that confused the Kingdom of God with the Kingdom of Rome - which is why St Augustine's "City of God" was so important!

I have no personal knowledge of farming in real life in real small scale farms. Nor a desire to to so. I will not abandon my obligations to my mother and father in law in care, nor my own elderly father.

RTBT Revelation: Apocalypse Now and Then

Buy RTBT Revelation - Apocalypse Now and Then from Reformers. No longer should readers feel intimidated by the book of Revelation. In this commentary, Paul

reformers.com.au

Click to expand...

We are all part of the Roman Empire, our western heritage is what continued from it. No it is not one city. Many of the merchants will die off too, it is those left who are yet far off seeing the collapse of the destination they would have come to who will wail, it will happen to all merchants left around the world. The regimes and rulers will all perish, they will not last in power. That churches were known for cities where they started is really irrelevant to this.

You disagree with the start of Revelation 18, where God's people are told to get out. It is disobedient then to not do so. God nowhere told any to go build cities. God's city, from heaven, is symbolic of someplace much greater than a city from God's own provision.

I nowhere said to abandon ones you care for, you are supposed to bring people, including them, with you.

FredVB said:

You disagree with the start of Revelation 18, where God's people are told to get out. It is disobedient then to not do so.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree with the bible - I disagree with bad and selective reading of the bible! You're taking the symbolic and less-clear and using that to overturn the VERY clear statements of Jesus about our number one mission - to love God with all our heart and mind and soul, and love our neighbour as ourselves. And to preach the gospel as per the Great Commission. How is it loving God to turn our backs on where most of our neighbours live, in the big cities?

Don't read Apocalyptic Symbolism literally. It's literature, not literal. That is - the command to come out of the city is a picture of the eventual judgement of that godless city. The cities in Revelation are about theology. One is proud and sinful, the other ordered by God and beautiful. It's a compare and contrast - to stir our hearts and help keep us trusting in Jesus death and resurrection. It's about where our hearts are - not our personal addresses! Or - think of the Israelites in exile. The prophets told them to work for the benefit of the city they were in while they were there - even though that was not there home.

Other than this poor reading of a symbolic, unclear-to-you chapter in Revelation - can you show many anywhere Jesus LITERALLY commands them to get out of cities?

Indeed - we can see how Paul reads these sorts of verses. There are other verses to 'come out' of the ungodly city. See Is. 48:20; 52:11; Jer. 50:8; 51:6, 45; 2 Cor. 6:17. But look at that last one? Paul uses the 'come out' verses to talk NOT about a Christian's residential location, but their allegiences and heart! EG: Are they going to marry someone within the church - or outside the church? Or are they going to practice idolatry - or be dedicated to God? Because Acts shows the gospel imperative is to invade the whole world and every tongue and tribe with the saving message of God. There are no 'holy' and 'unholy' bits of the earth any more - only holy and unholy people.

FredVB said:

God nowhere told any to go build cities.

Click to expand...

He told the Israelites where they must build the temple - and of course given that was the centre of worship - the city had to grow around that just for practical reasons.

FredVB said:

God's city, from heaven, is symbolic of someplace much greater than a city from God's own provision.

Click to expand...

Yes - the New Jerusalem is symbolic of heaven and earth meeting in the new cosmos that God will constantly renew. I cannot begin to imagine what that will be like - but it's exciting!

FredVB said:

I nowhere said to abandon ones you care for, you are supposed to bring people, including them, with you.

Click to expand...

No - I'm NOT supposed to bring people with me because I'm NOT supposed to leave the city based on your poor reading of one symbolic verse! You have not provided ONE verse that actually commands me to get out the city. All you have is a misreading of a symbol whose purpose is to achieve something completely different to what you have taken from it.

Dude, here's the thing. Cities only use 3% of the land. Meat uses 34%. Cities can help the poor and nature by generating more wealth. The more income a city has the more likely it will be able to sponsor important things like welfare and hospitals for the poor, scientific research, and recycling schemes that reduce the impact on nature. Not only that - but it is in cities that scientific research has come up with wonders like protein from Precision Fermentation and Seaweed Powder that could feed the world without using 34% of the land. Indeed, the Seaweed Powder could RESTORE THE OCEANS!

Cities generate wealth in the way your little permaculture compounds cannot. Cities enjoy an efficiency bonus. The basic rule of thumb? Every time you double a city’s population you get an extra 30% GDP for free. To illustrate, say you have 5,000 people in one town and 5,000 people in another separate town. The total GDP would be the GDP of 10,000 people. But if all these people lived together in one single town of 10,000 people, they would get the GDP of 13,000 people. That’s the work of an extra 3000 people - for free. Just because living together shares resources and gets things done more efficiently. They're not even sure when this bonus stops - it might be as high as a city of 40 million. Why innovation thrives in cities

If we stay in the cities and preach the gospel - we might just turn around that city - and reduce harm. Reduce ungodliness.

Until you can come up with a clearer argument based on more compelling verses, a misreading of Revelation just isn't going to compell me to take your idea seriously. The monks did stuff like this - and ended up just as corrupt themselves in many cases.