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Shouldn't all Evangelicals want Christian Nationalism?

ViaCrucis

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Of course not, and I never claimed it would. If there are people who will not hear the truth, should that stop you from speaking it?

The Declaration of Independence rendered the 13 colonies independent of the British Crown. There certainly were loyalists who didn't want independence--but the result was an independent country.

If you are going to compare that with a declaration of national submission to Jesus, I'd expect there to be some kind of net effect. If it won't make anyone a Christian, then what's the point?

Do I need America to be a "Christian nation" in order to proclaim the Gospel of Christ?

I just want to understand what the point is, because it seems like little more than a power fantasy to get to be in charge of other people.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Uh, that's what happens in theocracies where Islam is the dominant religion. We are not a theocracy.
I don't think you understand what a Theocracy is. A Theocracy is a realm in which priests rule and most Christian governments which punished blasphemy were not theocracies. Still, I would like to ask, what would be the problem with such law from a Christian perspective? From a Liberal, US view, yes this violates the fundamental values of the USA in that the USA as a nation tolerates blasphemy of the divine. Yet US Liberal values are not Christian values and if a political community of Christians somewhere gathered and was determined to keep their community free of blasphemy, who are you to tell them they must accept blasphemy?

If Christians politically wanted to work towards this, why shouldn't they? Must they submit their consciences to the US system first and foremost?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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You nailed it.

The modern evangelical is "above politics" until the postwar liberal consensus is questioned, and then you find he is ready to start dropping bombs in a holy crusade of good vs. evil.
The problem to me isn't that someone can't have this standard, but in order to have it they must renounce all politics, yet PublicHermit doesn't and has political preferences and desires like all the rest of us. It is insipid advice that one gives to their enemy to disarm them while maintaining that they themselves should always have a sword and I can't take it seriously. Public Hermit likely is thankful that the USA fought against the mid century Germans but he/she can't admit that without contradicting everything they've said. That to be a Christian is apparently to be a pacifist, without power, subject to those around you, with no horse in any political conflict. It's absurd and I thank God Christians before me didn't operate under this sinister notion.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Isn't this the current strategy which is losing at the moment? Why is the solution to surrender power to those who hate you?

We've already talked about this in the past, Ignatius.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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And why would you be advocating something which doesn't work?

I have three reasons "why": 1) Even though Christ told His disciples that He gave them all authority on earth, we don't really see Peter and Paul, or any of the other disciples, directly advocating the use of 'the Sword,' 2) although I'm not against the idea that God could occasionally send in a liberator or paradigm changer to lead people forward (e.g. O.T. Judges or Medieval Caesars), I only put a tiny bit of interpretive stock in that sort of thing, and 3) my current understanding of biblical eschatology is such that I lean toward the idea that political power is to be unfortunately taken out of the hands of Christians and while any of us can "speak up for Christ," that's not going to win the day politically.

So, there you have it. The summation of my 'why' I don't advocate for what you do, part of which also comes out of the fact that, yes, I live where I live and you live where you live.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I have three reasons "why": 1) Even though Christ told His disciples that He gave them all authority on earth, we don't really see Peter and Paul, or any of the other disciples, directly advocating the use of 'the Sword,' 2) although I'm not against the idea that God could occasionally send in a liberator or paradigm changer to lead people forward (e.g. O.T. Judges or Medieval Caesars), I only put a tiny bit of interpretive stock in that sort of thing, and 3) my current understanding of biblical eschatology is such that I lean toward the idea that political power is to be taken out of the hands of Christians and while any of us can "speak up for Christ," that's not going to win the day politically.

So, there you have it. The summation of my 'why' I don't advocate for what you do, part of which comes out of the fact that, yes, I live where I live and you live where you live.
1. Does not Paul recognize the legitimacy of the sword and government. Do you believe Christians should never lay hands on said sword?
2. So you're not against advocating for a more Christian political order? Why then be opposed to Christian Nationalism? Pure pragmatism that secularism has won and cannot be challenged?
3. So given that this is your eschatology and you believe power is to be taken away from Christians, is to challenge that thinking to go against God's designs?

By the way, I am not advocating for Christian Nationalism as I am not a Christian Nationalist. I just don't see why American Christians in particular have any legitimate reason to be against it, except that it challenges total secularism and says Christians don't have to conform their political ideology to the dominant secular liberal ideology of the USA. If one believes the USA is a democracy and that all people can participate, how Christian Nationalism not a legitimate participant? If they work hard enough and get a democratic mandate to put their policies into action, isn't that how democracy is supposed to work?
 
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Hank77

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A Theocracy is a realm in which priests rule
Theocracy is a form of autocracy[2] in which one or more deities are recognized as supreme ruling authorities, giving divine guidance to human intermediaries who manage the government's daily affairs.


The human intermediaries do not have to be priests or church authorities.

Lots of Christians right now believe that Trump is being given divine guidance as well as other conservatives such as the Heritage Foundation individuals, etc.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Theocracy is a form of autocracy[2] in which one or more deities are recognized as supreme ruling authorities, giving divine guidance to human intermediaries who manage the government's daily affairs.


The human intermediaries do not have to be priests or church authorities.

Lots of Christians right now believe that Trump is being given divine guidance as well as other conservatives such as the Heritage Foundation individuals, etc.
That's an interesting definition because it doesn't exactly apply historically and to what Christian Nationalists are advocating for. Can you for instance think of any Christian theocratic state which was not run by the Church directly via clergy and or monastic orders? I can't.
 
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Hank77

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That's an interesting definition because it doesn't exactly apply historically and to what Christian Nationalists are advocating for. Can you for instance think of any Christian theocratic state which was not run by the Church directly via clergy and or monastic orders? I can't.
Just because there hasn't been a Christian one doesn't mean that there couldn't be one in the future.

 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Just because there hasn't been a Christian one doesn't mean that there couldn't be one in the future.

So you're appealing to a hypothetical type of country that had never actually existed in a Christian context to say why we shouldn't have it? This also despite Christian Nationalists not advocating for what you definition of a theocracy is?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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1. Does not Paul recognize the legitimacy of the sword and government. Do you believe Christians should never lay hands on said sword?
Your quite right that the Apostle Paul recognized the legitimacy of government to bear the sword, but that's a far cry from advocating civil conflict between competing factions living side by side within the same nation. If Christians in the U.S. want to "lay hands" on the sword, they need to become officers of the peace, or join the military for the defense of the nation. Those are the two civic options. The third might be to use a gun in one's own home against an intruder.

Other than these three possibilities, and with all of the scholarly sources at my disposal, I can't really see any legitimacy for Christians to use the sword in order to take over their own nation, and I think Paul the Apostle would agree with me. Peter likely would too.
2. So you're not against advocating for a more Christian political order? Why then be opposed to Christian Nationalism? Pure pragmatism that secularism has won and cannot be challenged?
I'm not advocating Christian Nationalism because in the U.S. we have so many competing factions that I think history would repeat itself here, and I don't want to see that sort of thing happen.
3. So given that this is your eschatology and you believe power is to be taken away from Christians, is to challenge that thinking to go against God's designs?
.................. to "challenge that thinking," even my own thinking? By asking this, you may be underestimating my ability to apply Critical Thinking to my own interpretive position on eschatology, as well as to that of everyone else. Moreover, you might also not be up to speed on exactly how U.S. politics work.
By the way, I am not advocating for Christian Nationalism as I am not a Christian Nationalist. I just don't see why American Christians in particular have any legitimate reason to be against it, except that it challenges total secularism and says Christians don't have to conform their political ideology to the dominant secular liberal ideology of the USA. If one believes the USA is a democracy and that all people can participate, how Christian Nationalism not a legitimate participant? If they work hard enough and get a democratic mandate to put their policies into action, isn't that how democracy is supposed to work?

It's an odd thing to state that you're not advocating for Christian Nationalism and that you actually "aren't one" in one breath, but then go on to say that you're entertaining the idea that Christians shouldn't be against it. Be that as it may, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm not against a minimal form of it if it could be managed to combine the solidarity which we might have among Trinitarian Christians. The problem is that so-called Christian Nationalism won't ever gain the ascendancy in the U.S. unless Christianity becomes a majority outlook on life among its citizens---and it'd have to comprise a big majority. As it is, it doesn't look like that sort of demographic shift will be happening any time soon, if ever.

As but one instance of the hurdle Christians have here, we have a few [only a few] states in which there are attempts by certain conservative Christian leaders to install either the Bible, or the Ten Commandments, or even prayer in public schools or in many other public facilities. Those attempts are being met by a heavy secular push to keep to those sorts of installations from happening. What's more, because of the civic mindset that is instilled here and the dominant presence of a liberal social narrative over and against a more 'biblical' social narrative, Christian political leadership has always more or less been, and will likely continue to be, riding in the back seat of the constitutional operatus. And since the time of Madison, that's just the way it is among a land filled with a diversity of perspectives, even Christian ones.

One more thing: it has to be remembered that the U.S. is a republic, not a bona-fide democracy in the fullest sense of the word. Rather, it is a nation that values generally democratic ideals, but that only goes just so far.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Your quite right that the Apostle Paul recognized the legitimacy of government to bear the sword, but that's a far cry from advocating civil conflict between competing factions living side by side within the same nation. If Christians in the U.S. want to "lay hands" on the sword, they need to become officers of the peace, or join the military for the defense of the nation. Those are the two civic options. The third might be to use a gun in one's own home against in intruder.
Who are the Christian Nationalists advocating for violent revolution?
Other than these three possibilities, and with all of the scholarly sources at my disposal, I can't really see any legitimacy for Christians to take use the sword in order to take over their own nation, and I think Paul the Apostle would agree with me. Peter likely would too.
You misunderstand. The sword is political power. I am asking if it is legitimate for Christians to have and weild political power.
I'm not advocating Christian Nationalism because in the U.S. we have so many competing factions that I think history would repeat itself here, and I don't want to see that sort of thing happen.
So you are advocating retreat and the loss of power to other factions who would seek power? Because if you dont compete in said arena, you lose by default.
.................. to "challenge that thinking," even my own thinking? By asking this, you may be underestimating my ability to apply Critical Thinking to my own interpretive position on eschatology, as well as to that of everyone else. Moreover, you might also not be up to speed on exactly how U.S. politics work.
Im aware of US politics and the challenges the Christian Nationalists have. Mostly from fellow Christians who submit to the US regime and will not deviate from its mandates.
It's an odd thing to state that you're not advocating for Christian Nationalism and that you actually "aren't one" in one breath, but then go on to say that you're entertaining the idea that Christians shouldn't be against it. Be that as it may, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm not against a minimal form of it if it could be managed to combine the solidarity which we might have among Trinitarian Christians. The problem is that so-called Christian Nationalism won't ever gain the ascendancy in the U.S. unless Christianity becomes a majority outlook on life among our citizens---like a big majority. As it is, it doesn't look like that sort of demographic shift will be happening any time soon, if ever.
I can be sympathetic to ideologies i dont agree with. There is room for nuance. The issue if Christian Nationalism is legitimate and from a Christian perspective I don't see anything illegitimate in it. From a US secular perspective, yes CN is illegitimate but those are two different things.
As but one instance of the hurdle Christians have here, we have a few [only a few] states in which there are attempts by certain conservative Christian leaders to install either the Bible, or the Ten Commandments, or even prayer in public schools or in many other public facilities. Those attempts are being met by a heavy secular push to keep to those sorts of installations from happening. What's more, because of the civic mindset that is instilled here and the dominant presence of a liberal social narrative over and against a more 'biblical' social narrative, Christian political leadership has always more or less been, and will likely continue to be, riding in the back seat of the constitutional operatus. And since the time of Madison, that's just the way it is among a land filled with a diversity of perspectives, even Christian ones.
Given the entrenched power of the Federal government and forcing the states to do what they don't want to do, this claim rings hollow to me. The Fed only gains more centralized power a day this will continue for the foreseeable future, creating more uniform Americans.
One more thing: it has to be remembered that the U.S. is a republic, not a bona-fide democracy in the fullest sense of the word. Rather, it is a nation that values generally democratic ideals, but that only just so far.
So it's not legitimate for Christians to participate as Christians? Why be loyal to the regime then?
 
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Hank77

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why we shouldn't have it
I don't think I ever stated my opinion about whether we should have this form of government or not.
Christian Nationalists not advocating for what you definition of a theocracy is?
I think you need to do more studying as some CNs do advocate for this type of government. I think that's obvious by the reasoning some Christians give for voting for who they do to run the country. "Donald Trump, the King Cyrus..."
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I don't think I ever stated my opinion about whether we should have this form of government or not.

I think you need to do more studying as some CNs do advocate for this type of government. I think that's obvious by the reasoning some Christians give for voting for who they do to run the country. "Donald Trump, the King Cyrus..."
I am reading Stephen Wolfe's Christian Nationalism and it doesn't say anything about this form government. At least so far. Rather what it is about is justifying Christian application to the rule of law.

Also, what is your opinion of the actual Theocracies in Christian history? Not the hypothetical ones in your mind.
 
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Hank77

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Also, what is your opinion of the actual Theocracies in Christian history?
Not interested in that discussion. I don't know that history well enough to contribute in any meaningful way.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Who are the Christian Nationalists advocating for violent revolution?
... they're out there. They aren't the majority of Christians here, but they're out there.
You misunderstand. The sword is political power. I am asking if it is legitimate for Christians to have and weild political power.
The 'sword' is corporal power for keeping order and peace, and I'm pretty sure that's what Paul was (all too briefly) speaking of in Romans 13.

Yes, it is legitimate for Christians to wield political power; but in the U.S., were not talking about something akin to Constantine the Great here.
So you are advocating retreat and the loss of power to other factions who would seek power? Because if you dont compete in said arena, you lose by default.
No, I've said nothing about "retreat." Christians can do what anyone else can do: they can lobby for their position on social issues and vote.
Im aware of US politics and the challenges the Christian Nationalists have. Mostly from fellow Christians who submit to the US regime and will not deviate from its mandates.
Like I said, in the U.S., we have a diversity of Christian outlooks, most of which goes back to our colonial days, back when some Christians used to tar and feather each other verbally, and sometimes literally.
I can be sympathetic to ideologies i dont agree with. There is room for nuance. The issue if Christian Nationalism is legitimate and from a Christian perspective I don't see anything illegitimate in it. From a US secular perspective, yes CN is illegitimate but those are two different things.
The thing is, in your part of the world, Christian Nationalism probably has only one, maybe two versions. Here, there's a spectrum among those Christians who are conservative and Republican leaning.
Given the entrenched power of the Federal government and forcing the states to do what they don't want to do, this claim rings hollow to me. The Fed only gains more centralized power a day this will continue for the foreseeable future, creating more uniform Americans.
As I said, this is what the foreseeable future is here, and my saying that is taking into mind proactive lobbying and voting, or even being elected to offices.
So it's not legitimate for Christians to participate as Christians? Why be loyal to the regime then?

Again, no, I didn't say that. I said that Christians in the U.S. are at a point politically that despite their advocacy and their proaction, they're not going to go far politically for very long. Of course, I could be wrong about all of this, but this is my current outlook, based upon the reasons I've already previously laid out. I'm not a post-millennialist in my eschatology, and I don't think the way of the world is going to cooperate much longer with Christians, nor is it just going to move out of the way.
 
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Hank77

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I am reading Stephen Wolfe's Christian Nationalism and it doesn't say anything about this form government. At least so far. Rather what it is about is justifying Christian application to the rule of law.
Finally, Wolfe sees the need for a Christian nation to be led by a civil magistrate whom he calls the “Christian prince.” The prince is not merely a good leader or a capable administrator or even a pious Christian. He serves as a source of national pride and inspiration. Wolfe describes him in these terms:


“Having the highest office on earth, the good prince resembles God to the people. Indeed, he is the closest image of God on earth. This divine presence in the prince speaks to his role beyond civil administration. Through him, as the mediator of divine rule, the prince brings God near to the people. The prince is a sort of national god, not in the sense of being divine himself, or in materially transcending common humanity, or as an object of prayer or spiritual worship, or as a means of salvific grace, but as the mediator of divine rule for this nation and as one with divinely granted power to direct them in their national completeness.” (p. 287-288)



I don't know anything about Wolfe's book so I looked it up. This is a tiny portion of an in-depth review of his book.
I think that this small quote from Wolfe's book is some of what I have heard about Christian Nationalism's advocates.
 
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Hank77

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Who are the Christian Nationalists advocating for violent revolution?
See chapter 8 in Wolfe's book, “The Right to Revolution,".

“Open blasphemy in our public square is shrugged off as ‘to be expected’ or part of the world’s ‘brokenness.’ We have settled into a posture of passive defense, bunkered behind the artificial walls of churches and the porous borders separating the family from society. A hostile and secularist ruling class roams free, and few Christians are willing to take the struggle to a higher level. But we do not have to live like this… Here I will justify violent revolution.” (p. 326) He then employs standard just-war theory arguments to defend revolution...



@2PhiloVoid
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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See chapter 8 in Wolfe's book, “The Right to Revolution,".

“Open blasphemy in our public square is shrugged off as ‘to be expected’ or part of the world’s ‘brokenness.’ We have settled into a posture of passive defense, bunkered behind the artificial walls of churches and the porous borders separating the family from society. A hostile and secularist ruling class roams free, and few Christians are willing to take the struggle to a higher level. But we do not have to live like this… Here I will justify violent revolution.” (p. 326) He then employs standard just-war theory arguments to defend revolution...



@2PhiloVoid
Interesting. Do you oppose all violent revolution? As an American, revolution is part of your founding so i dont know how you could be against it. Also, the justification for violent revolution is not the same as advocating for it at present.
 
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