Where does the GOP stand on Contraception?

Diamond7 said:

Is that where you are going with this? Because yes our life is pre ordained but we have a choice if we want to follow God and His plan for us.

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How can we have any choices if everything is preordained?

Diamond7 said:

The same way we can be happy here

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So heaven isn't any better than earth?

Diamond7 said:

There is NOTHING better than to give praise, honor, glory and thanks onto God. Why would we want to do anything any different.

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Your unsupported claims don't make a convincing argument.

NxNW said:

How can we have any choices if everything is preordained?

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We choose if we are going to follow God's plan for our life or not. This is what makes humans different from animals. God expects us to make the right choice and then we reap the benefits of making the right choice.

NxNW said:

So heaven isn't any better than earth?

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We can get a taste of Heaven on Earth. Jesus teaches us to pray Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. We do not have the physical body in Heaven like we have here on earth.

NxNW said:

our unsupported claims don't make a convincing argument.

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Anyone that has ever worshiped God knows how wonderful that is. My wife and I love to listen to worship music. This is what church is all about is getting together with our fellow christians to give praise, honor and glory to God. There is NOTHING better than that. This is when God fills us with His love that we have for one another.

Diamond7 said:

We choose if we are going to follow God's plan for our life or not.

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Is that choice preordained?

NxNW said:

Is that choice preordained?

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God writes the book of our life before we are born, At or before conception. In my dream my daughter never made it to the womb. But her angel was reading the book God wrote to help her become the person God created her to be at conception. We are given gifts, talents and abilities. WE need to use what we have to bring praise, honor and glory to God. I have a third daughter and she also was a miscarriage at 3 weeks. I raised my two sons but I did not raise any of my daughters. So I would not even know how to do what I have never done.

Psalm 139 15 My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be. 17 How precious to me are Your thoughts, O God, how vast is their sum!…

NxNW said:

Is that choice preordained?

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Joseph Smith and hyper Calvinism says God wanted Adam and Eve to sin and rebel against him. But most christians do not believe that.

Reformed theologians generally do not claim that God actively caused Adam and Eve to sin. Instead, they recognize human agency and the consequences of free will. The Westminster Confession embodies Reformed theology.

NxNW said:

Your unsupported claims don't make a convincing argument.

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The point is we are to humble ourselves before God.

1. 1 Peter 5:5:
   • “In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, ‘God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.’”
   • Humility fosters unity and favor from God.
2. Micah 6:8:
   • “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.”
   • Walking humbly with God involves living justly and showing mercy.
3. Proverbs 3:34:
   • “He mocks proud mockers but shows favor to the humble and oppressed.”

Diamond7 said:

We choose if we are going to follow God's plan for our life or not.

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This would suggest that there is “something” that I could “do” to ensure my salvation, which, (I’m pretty sure) is anathema to orthodox Christianity.

Pommer said:

This would suggest that there is “something” that I could “do” to ensure my salvation, which, (I’m pretty sure) is anathema to orthodox Christianity.

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The contradiction is curious. Either we make a choice, or our every thought and action is preordained. But it can't be both.

NxNW said:

The contradiction is curious. Either we make a choice, or our every thought and action is preordained. But it can't be both.

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If you make a choice was it not determined by something?

Bradskii said:

If you make a choice was it not determined by something?

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If there is a God and that God needs for me to “believe in Them”, then I will trust Them to know how best to convince me that They’re there. If I receive no such “guidance” I will assume that there is No-One there Who needs me to think a certain way about certain things, and live my life accordingly.

Pommer said:

If there is a God and that God needs for me to “believe in Them”, then I will trust Them to know how best to convince me that They’re there. If I receive no such “guidance” I will assume that there is No-One there Who needs me to think a certain way about certain things, and live my life accordingly.

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I'm always open for a discussion if He think I need one. Maybe I've slipped through the cracks. Or He doesn't exist. Which has ocurred to me...

Bradskii said:

If you make a choice was it not determined by something?

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But then is it a choice?

NxNW said:

But then is it a choice?

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Sure. Do you choose whisky or OJ? You can have either. You're not forced in any way. But it's 7:00am and you're having breakfast so your choice will be determined by many things. But it's still a choice.

Don't look at determinism as forcing you to do something. Look on it as an explanation of why you did it. And if exactly the same situation occured again (you rerun the film) then you'd make exactly the same choice. It's therefore a determined choice.

Bradskii said:

Sure. Do you choose whisky or OJ? You can have either. You're not forced in any way. But it's 7:00am and you're having breakfast so your choice will be determined by many things. But it's still a choice.

Don't look at determinism as forcing you to do something. Look on it as an explanation of why you did it.

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I couldn't bring myself to read the entire determinism thread, but I'll simply ask if true randomness exists in the universe, such as atomic decay. If so, then determinism seems to be defeated. Given unsolvable questions, like the 3-body problem, the weather, the interaction of planetary orbits, and the fact that the universe isn't big enough to describe itself exactly, I don't buy into determinism. There are simply more equations than unknowns, and not everything is solvable or predictable.

Bradskii said:

And if exactly the same situation occured again (you rerun the film) then you'd make exactly the same choice. It's therefore a determined choice.

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I don't exactly the same situation, down to the exact Planck time and Planck length, etc, can be made to exist again, and so supposing it is nonsensical.

NxNW said:

I couldn't bring myself to read the entire determinism thread, but I'll simply ask if true randomness exists in the universe, such as atomic decay. If so, then determinism seems to be defeated. Given unsolvable questions, like the 3-body problem, the weather, the interaction of planetary orbits, and the fact that the universe isn't big enough to describe itself exactly, I don't buy into determinism. There are simply more equations than unknowns, and not everything is solvable or predictable.

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Some things are unpredictable. That doesn't mean that they are indeterministic. Just that you can't predict it. Like the three body problem. It's obviously deterministic but not predictable. And if something is truly random (maybe down at the quantum level) then that has no connection with free will at all. It's just the opposite.

NxNW said:

I don't exactly the same situation, down to the exact Planck time and Planck length, etc, can be made to exist again, and so supposing it is nonsensical.

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Some people have a problem with hypotheticals. I can't help you there.

NxNW said:

I couldn't bring myself to read the entire determinism thread, but I'll simply ask if true randomness exists in the universe, such as atomic decay. If so, then determinism seems to be defeated. Given unsolvable questions, like the 3-body problem, the weather, the interaction of planetary orbits, and the fact that the universe isn't big enough to describe itself exactly, I don't buy into determinism. There are simply more equations than unknowns, and not everything is solvable or predictable.

I don't exactly the same situation, down to the exact Planck time and Planck length, etc, can be made to exist again, and so supposing it is nonsensical.

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“Free will” (much like time, money, God(s)), doesn’t actually exist, but we’re able to live as if they all did/do and (hopefully) have what “fun” we can with them.

Bradskii said:

Some things are unpredictable. That doesn't mean that they are indeterministic. Just that you can't predict it. Like the three body problem. It's obviously deterministic but not predictable.

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I'm not sure what the difference is. If there are forces that can't be discerned, isn't that the same as random?

Bradskii said:

And if something is truly random (maybe down at the quantum level) then that has no connection with free will at all. It's just the opposite.

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Well, if you tie something from the quantum level to our reality, like Schroedinger's Cat, then you have an example.

Bradskii said:

Some people have a problem with hypotheticals. I can't help you there.

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If something is impossible, like two identical situations, is it useful to imagine them and draw firm conclusions?

NxNW said:

I'm not sure what the difference is. If there are forces that can't be discerned, isn't that the same as random?

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No. You don't know why I typed 'Alaska' then. But it wasn't random. Do you know why the guy just cut you off in traffic which put you in a bad mood? No. But it wasn't random. Why did the plane crash? We don't know. But it wasn't a random event. It was caused. Determined.

NxNW said:

Well, if you tie something from the quantum level to our reality, like Schroedinger's Cat, then you have an example.

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So you do understand hypotheticals. And quantum effects have no real impact on the macro world. Where we make decisions.

NxNW said:

If something is impossible, like two identical situations, is it useful to imagine them and draw firm conclusions?

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Yes. You don't have to tie people to a track to discuss the Trolley Problem. You don't have to decapitate someone to discuss the implications of a Brain In A Vat. You don't have to repeat something exactly to draw conclusions from a determined world.

Bradskii said:

No. You don't know why I typed 'Alaska' then. But it wasn't random. Do you know why the guy just cut you off in traffic which put you in a bad mood? No. But it wasn't random. Why did the plane crash? We don't know. But it wasn't a random event. It was caused. Determined.

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I'm talking about quantum events like proton decay, not larger scale.

Bradskii said:

So you do understand hypotheticals. And quantum effects have no real impact on the macro world. Where we make decisions.

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Schroedinger explained how you can link them.

Bradskii said:

You don't have to tie people to a track to discuss the Trolley Problem. You don't have to decapitate someone to discuss the implications of a Brain In A Vat. You don't have to repeat something exactly to draw conclusions from a determined world.

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You need to establish that it's deterministic before calling it that.

NxNW said:

You need to establish that it's deterministic before calling it that.

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Apart from random/quantum events, every event has a cause. You are free to give an example where it doesn't.