Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

stevevw · Apr 30, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
What sad deprived homes. I think the bible was the only book in our home that I didn't read. (Was that really your point? It doesn't seem like it.)

What sad deprived homes lol. You really have it in for Christianity.

BCP1928 · May 1, 2024

stevevw said:
What sad deprived homes lol. You really have it in for Christianity.

No, just for the idea that Western Christian Culture is "special."

stevevw · May 1, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
What sad deprived homes. I think the bible was the only book in our home that I didn't read. (Was that really your point? It doesn't seem like it.)

I am talking about the evolution of the bible being once the most widely read book in society because society was predominately Christian and it was encouraged even up to around mid 20th century. Your reading habits don't represent society back then or probably even now.

The bible is the highest selling book of all time with over 5 billion copies. I would say up until recently the bible would have outsold all other books each year within the west.

stevevw · May 1, 2024

BCP1928 said:
No, just for the idea that Western Christian Culture is "special."

No one saying its special. I am saying its our own culture, if your from the west. Sure we have done some bad stuff but its still our culture just like our family. You don't reject your own culture perse because some in the past have done some bad stuff. Its not the fault of the people living today and they are not their ancestors but a new generation who live 100s of years later.

We acknowledge the bad stuff and try to do better. But we also acknowledge the good stuff that made us who we are. Every culture has done bad stuff. Whatever the west has done all other nations have done in their history. That is the human condition.

This new ideology that we must self flagellate for our past sins as though todays generation are guilty and others are innocents is divisive. Telling children their ancestors are evil and they are guilty is not a good idea.

The west is the first culture in history to attack itself, attack its own identity and reject it. Its not good, its not healthy. Any culture that rejects itself is on a path to self destruction.

Hans Blaster · May 1, 2024

stevevw said:
I don't know, what is western literature. I mean the Old Testament is Hebrew afterall and thats a foundational text.

But its true. Are you saying the Christian worldview did not influence our view of the world. My point did not just apply to Christians either. I also pointed out that the Christian worldview influenced ethics including non Christian ethicsal ideas.

It seems we have work to do to...

stevevw said:
Your complaining about the details of publication is a red herring, The point is the bible was the first widely read book within the west and it is foundational to the western thinking and worldview.

If we are talking about influences on other literature, the writers of books were certainly reading a wide variety of books that influenced their writing. It really didn't matter what the merchant class had on their shelves or if they had any books at all.

stevevw said:
Thats was the point but all you have managed to do is create fallacies attacking the credibility of sources and minor detail that has nothing to do with the point made.

I'm attacking your claim of the bible being the dominant or primary influence of western literature or culture. Your misconceptions about the relative availability of various texts seems to be influencing your position.

stevevw said:
The writings from the old testament were around well before AD.

5-600 years for the vast majority of them.

stevevw said:
But I don't want another sidetrack. It doesn't matter how early the bible is, who wrote it, the point is its a foundational book for the west and it influenced our worldview.

The "foundation" tends to be the layer laid down first. The Greeks laid down a foundation for Western civilization (and its literature) before Jesus was even born. The *influence* of the bible that comes later is clear, but it is not the ur-source for everything in western culture or literature.

stevevw said:
Yeah thats OK, its a pretty version but simplistic. For the west I think the bible influenced its meaning.

Again, there are western versions of the "golden rule" that predate the gospels. The bible seems to influence how *Christians* think about everything, but the rest of us don't need to give it any notice.

stevevw said:
It related to parables like the Good Samaritan and was the second greatest commandment that covered all the moral laws.

It wasn't just about not hurting others as you would not want to be hurt . It was loving others as you love yourself which covered much more.

Is that a commandment for self-centered people or something? (Like much of the sermon on the mount, the more I think about parts of it, the less useful it seems.)

stevevw said:
It relates to the central Christian idea of self sacrifice for others.

Oh, if only they practiced what they preached.

stevevw said:
No but its an example of how western thought was influenced by Christianity. It also shows that much of Christian thought and values were universal. That Gods order aligned with the universal truths we all know.

I wasn;t making the point that it backs Christian world view. I was linking back in my previous point that these truths that the Christian worldview aligns with are also universal truths because humans have this innate knowledge regardless of culture.

Another one of your "universal human properties = god something" claims. I remain unimpressed and unconvinced.

Hans Blaster · May 1, 2024

stevevw said:
What sad deprived homes lol. You really have it in for Christianity.

I didn't used to, but then I spent too much time here on CF...

Despite thinking it wasn't factual after my deconversion, I still gave the "Christian" label positive credit in my thoughts. I don't anymore. I judge things that are called "Christian" on what they do and what effect they have. Not all are good.

Hans Blaster · May 1, 2024

stevevw said:
No one saying its special. I am saying its our own culture, if your from the west. Sure we have done some bad stuff but its still our culture just like our family. You don't reject your own culture perse because some in the past have done some bad stuff. Its not the fault of the people living today and they are not their ancestors but a new generation who live 100s of years later.

We acknowledge the bad stuff and try to do better. But we also acknowledge the good stuff that made us who we are. Every culture has done bad stuff. Whatever the west has done all other nations have done in their history. That is the human condition.

This new ideology that we must self flagellate for our past sins as though todays generation are guilty and others are innocents is divisive. Telling children their ancestors are evil and they are guilty is not a good idea.

Gee, I wonder where "western culture" got that idea...

stevevw said:
The west is the first culture in history to attack itself, attack its own identity and reject it. Its not good, its not healthy. Any culture that rejects itself is on a path to self destruction.

I can't just take your word for it. Your record doesn't indicate an encyclopedic knowledge of other cultures.

BCP1928 · May 1, 2024

stevevw said:
No one saying its special. I am saying its our own culture, if your from the west. Sure we have done some bad stuff but its still our culture just like our family. You don't reject your own culture perse because some in the past have done some bad stuff. Its not the fault of the people living today and they are not their ancestors but a new generation who live 100s of years later.

We acknowledge the bad stuff and try to do better. But we also acknowledge the good stuff that made us who we are. Every culture has done bad stuff. Whatever the west has done all other nations have done in their history. That is the human condition.

This new ideology that we must self flagellate for our past sins as though todays generation are guilty and others are innocents is divisive. Telling children their ancestors are evil and they are guilty is not a good idea.

Nobody does that but Christians. They think they own the idea.

stevevw said:
The west is the first culture in history to attack itself, attack its own identity and reject it. Its not good, its not healthy. Any culture that rejects itself is on a path to self destruction.

Yes, the culture is changing and rejecting some of your favorite assumptions. Clearly a disaster.

stevevw · May 2, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
It seems we have work to do to...

I asked whether Cristianity influenced the wests worldview.

Hans Blaster said:
If we are talking about influences on other literature, the writers of books were certainly reading a wide variety of books that influenced their writing. It really didn't matter what the merchant class had on their shelves or if they had any books at all.

I am talking about whether Christianity influenced the western worldview or not. Yes it didn't matter if some people didn't have books or read. The point is Christianity influenced western culture, morality and social norms. It wasn't just lierature but values and how we seen the world.

So the merchants still lived within that culture. There was probably a bible on board and they said prayers before meals and asked that God be with them on their journey lol.

Hans Blaster said:
I'm attacking your claim of the bible being the dominant or primary influence of western literature or culture. Your misconceptions about the relative availability of various texts seems to be influencing your position.

I don't think so. Logically if society was 90% Christian then there were plenty of bibles around, many more than any other book especially at a time when books were only beginning to by published.

I remember a bible in every motel room, it was everywhere. The evidence for its influence is the fact that society was 90% plus Christian. I mean you can't be a Christian without reading and hearing the bible being read just every week.

Hans Blaster said:
5-600 years for the vast majority of them.

The bible is really a library of writings and books. Parts of the ‘Pentateuch’ are very ancient and Jewish tradition has it that Moses at least wrote parts of it. There would have been parts of the book in oral form and some written before it was compiled together.

But it doesn't matter how the book came together or how old it is. The point is this ancient foreign book was adopted by the west.

Hans Blaster said:
The "foundation" tends to be the layer laid down first. The Greeks laid down a foundation for Western civilization (and its literature) before Jesus was even born. The *influence* of the bible that comes later is clear, but it is not the ur-source for everything in western culture or literature.

I agree. Its more the particular focus the west had on literature. How literature represented the western worldview as compared to other cultures.

The Greeks were foundational for much of the world and so were the Romans. But what defines the west is how Christianity changed the GrecoRoman worldview to the Christian one. Though aspects of the worldview were changed like morality and metaphysical beliefs still retained the Greco Roman influence but seen this through the eyes of the Christian worldview.

I would say there was also a pretty strong representation of the Old Testament Prophets which was also foundational during the time of the Greeks and Romans that was perhaps a growing conflict and challenge leading up the Christianity becoming the adopted belief of the Roman Empire and the West.

Hans Blaster said:
Again, there are western versions of the "golden rule" that predate the gospels. The bible seems to influence how *Christians* think about everything, but the rest of us don't need to give it any notice.

That is now. Up until 50 or 60 years ago the vast majority were Christians some 90% plus. So Christianity influenced everything our worldview about morality and society. So it was given much notice.

Hans Blaster said:
Is that a commandment for self-centered people or something?

Its the exact opposite. It was about self sacrifice even to the point of giving ones life for another. It means not just doing whats necessary but going beyond. Giving your own shirt off your back for another.

Hans Blaster said:
(Like much of the sermon on the mount, the more I think about parts of it, the less useful it seems.)

The Sermon on the Mount are central to Christian values and worldview and also inform secular ethics. For forgive and loving your enermy. These are powerful ideas which seperate Christianity from secular ideology and morality.

The idea of turning the other cheek was a radical idea in the Greco Roman worldview and even in todays secular worldview. With the rise of identity politics and people wanting to destroy opposing views and identities its the only way we can stop the cyccccle of violence.

Hans Blaster said:
Oh, if only they practiced what they preached.

They do, there are many who quietly sacrifice themselves for helping the needy in the background. In fact if it wasn't for the Church and Charities throughout our history helping the mess society creates then we would have been in a much worse place.

THis one sides negative view shows peoples bias, shows that its more than just a fair critique but something personal.

Hans Blaster said:
Another one of your "universal human properties = god something" claims. I remain unimpressed and unconvinced.

But its backed by the science. The research shows that humans have a god shaped space in their cognition. NOt necessarily the Christian God but nonetheless a god type belief.

I also provided evidence that humans have a moral sense about the same core morals such as empathy, justice and kindness regadless of culture.

These support the claim I made that all societies will make some metaphyical idea godlike and use that as their worldview for meaning and morality and even reality itself. That since western society has rejected the Christian God they have also rejected Gods truths found in our social norms and governance.

Whatever god we make will be what dictates our society and now society is Godless we are not see anything different, anything better as Lennon thought. We are seeing chaos.

stevevw · May 2, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
I didn't used to, but then I spent too much time here on CF...

LOl, maybe you need to spread your wings and discovery theres a world of Christianity out there. Actually people living Christianity which is where the rubber hits the road.

Hans Blaster said:
Despite thinking it wasn't factual after my deconversion,

Theres the problem. Christians don't believe because its factual. That is the physicalists idea of what is real. But that doesn't mean there is no evidence for belief in God to the believers.

Hans Blaster said:
I still gave the "Christian" label positive credit in my thoughts. I don't anymore. I judge things that are called "Christian" on what they do and what effect they have. Not all are good.

The trouble is your already coming from a cynnical viewpoint, one that is biased and wants to find the negative stuff. Its not a fair determination like for example we would give in a neutral assessment of other topics that are perhaps not as personal to us.

There has been and still are many, many good examples of Christianity at work. When you peel the blinkers off you can see this everywhere.

stevevw · May 3, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
Gee, I wonder where "western culture" got that idea...

From the identity Woke ideologues who push the Marxist idea and see the world as oppressors and victims.

Hans Blaster said:
I can't just take your word for it. Your record doesn't indicate an encyclopedic knowledge of other cultures.

Well as far as I know cultures don't attack themselves but rather their identity forms a strong part of why they are and for which they stand on. The fundemental truth principle is that a divided society falls as opposed to a united one.

As far as I understand we have been relatively united through out history. I remeber a not to distant time when both sides of politics had a lot in common in the middle but we are more polarized than ever.

But even if we were not the only culture thats doing this its still not good. It would be the exception and rare as cultures and humans strive towards stability and not chaos.

Hans Blaster · May 3, 2024

stevevw said:
From the identity Woke ideologues who push the Marxist idea and see the world as oppressors and victims.

I would suggest you go study your bible. Look for "sins of the father". (a bad idea, but a great episode of ST:TNG).

stevevw said:
Well as far as I know cultures don't attack themselves but rather their identity forms a strong part of why they are and for which they stand on. The fundemental truth principle is that a divided society falls as opposed to a united one.

As far as I understand we have been relatively united through out history. I remeber a not to distant time when both sides of politics had a lot in common in the middle but we are more polarized than ever.

But even if we were not the only culture thats doing this its still not good. It would be the exception and rare as cultures and humans strive towards stability and not chaos.

This sense of unity you are thinking was present was only an illusion, at least it was in my country. I can't say about yours;

stevevw · May 3, 2024

BCP1928 said:
Nobody does that but Christians. They think they own the idea.

No this is not Christian thinking. This is a particular ideological belief. A mix of Post modernism, Marxism, identity politics and Woke. The Christian worldview has always included both the divine and fallen nature of humans. Love the sinner and hate the sin.

It allows the free will to choose to believe or not otherwise the belief is not genuine. It doesn't force the ideology. Sure in the past the church persecuted people just like Woke does. Thats why Woke identity politics is like the new religion, the new State church.

But that is not the true spirit of Christianity, of Christs teachings. There has always been the true church working in society throughout history and it has never promoted the idea that people must conform to some political or religious dogma and ideology.

Quite the opposite and that is why when it counted, when we needed to determine what is best, what is the truth such as with nations Declarations and Human Rights we referred to the natural God given rights of all regardless of identity and ideology.

BCP1928 said:
Yes, the culture is changing and rejecting some of your favorite assumptions. Clearly a disaster.

Such as. What assumptions are they rejecting. As far as I can see whatever you think society is rejecting and replacing it with its not working, its doing the exact opposite of making things better from the Christian worldview.

Any society that gets to a point where it is winding back long held truths and lessons and reigniting sentiments for such things as antisemetism and wars between identity groups is not in a healthy condition. This is a sign of fundemental underlying problems within our institutions, politics, morality and cultural identity.

Hans Blaster · May 3, 2024

stevevw said:
LOl, maybe you need to spread your wings and discovery theres a world of Christianity out there. Actually people living Christianity which is where the rubber hits the road.

I've heard there is a new kind of Christianity, different than the normal kind called -- pro-test-tant. They might believe in something different, but then why would I bother. Religion bores me and always has.

stevevw said:
Theres the problem. Christians don't believe because its factual. That is the physicalists idea of what is real. But that doesn't mean there is no evidence for belief in God to the believers.

WHAT!?!?!?

Christians don't believe Christianity because it is *factual*? Do you not think heaven and hell are factual? God and Jesus are factual? the Resurection was factual? the miracles of Jesus were factual? Are you that blinded by a need to slam naturalism, that you mistook "factual" for "evidenced"?

What I said is that despite no longer finding those things I just listed and many more to be true/factual anymore, for a long time (at least a decade) I still held enough favor in my mind to grant the "Christian" label certain latitude and favorable impressions even though I didn't believe any of its teachings. When the bad behavior of Christians were called out by other Christians as "un-Christian" I accepted that position and agreed with them. Even though I disagreed with the supernatural claims of Christianity, I maintained a position, not unlike the one you express in this thread repeatedly that Christianity was generally good thing.

stevevw said:
The trouble is your already coming from a cynnical viewpoint, one that is biased and wants to find the negative stuff. Its not a fair determination like for example we would give in a neutral assessment of other topics that are perhaps not as personal to us.

I'm going to repeat it in a different way so you can understand this. I was not cynical about Christianity when I found this site during a deep dive down a (non-Christian related) pseudoscience rabbit hole. I was generally disposed to positive feelings about it. (Though from in-person exposure, I didn't fully trust those known as "evangelicals".) Then I came here. In arguments people would link to outside sources of kinds I'd never seen before. I saw the "Christian arguments" and the counter arguments, apologetics (which I'd never even heard of before), debates, etc. I heard arguments for non-religious alternatives to the kind of thing you often insist must come from a god (morality, etc.) And above all I saw a lot of people practicing deliberate distortion of facts in support of Christianity (or at least their version of it). "Lying for Jesus" you could call it. It killed any nostalgic preference I had once given my old faith and left it clear that Christianity was just one of many religions I didn't believe. Though I am no expert on it, Christianity is the religion I know the most about, and when appropriate can most easily criticize.

stevevw said:
There has been and still are many, many good examples of Christianity at work. When you peel the blinkers off you can see this everywhere.

Christians certainly have done good and often in the name or motivation of their faith. I cannot and would not dispute that, but Christianity is just a religion to me and its spiritual/supernatural claims are no more credible than those of any other religion. Christians are fine, Christianity not so much.

To restate a greater physicist than myself: "For good people to do good and bad people to do evil is normal, but for good people to do evil requires religion."

Yes, I am cynical about religion, but I didn't start that way. Not when I was losing my faith, and not even when I discovered I did not believe in God, or even a decade or more after.

stevevw · May 3, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
I would suggest you go study your bible. Look for "sins of the father". (a bad idea, but a great episode of ST:TNG).

The idea of the "sins of the father" doesn't mean that future generations will be punished for past generations sins. The basic idea of this biblical meaning is that people, generations will reap what they sow. So its actually a fundemental idea of psychology, of life that however we choose to live is what is going to happen to future generations who in turn however they live will influence generations after them.

Hans Blaster said:
This sense of unity you are thinking was present was only an illusion, at least it was in my country. I can't say about yours;

Which is your country. As far as I understand most western nations have similar politics and social norms. There was a time when these nations at least the dominant ones were 90% Christian and therefore had unified ideas and beliefs about how this applied socially and reflected in laws, policies, conventions and norms.

Political parties had differing philosophy about how to achieve a better society economically and socially but they often agreed on many common values and core morals.

Thats all coming apart it seems lately as society is becoming more polarised and radical. Its more about 'us verses them' and intolerence for differences rather than inclusion and acceptence of differences for which the fore fathers envisioned as being made in the image of God and of equal worth.

BCP1928 · May 3, 2024

stevevw said:
No this is not Christian thinking. This is a particular ideological belief. A mix of Post modernism, Marxism, identity politics and Woke. The Christian worldview has always included both the divine and fallen nature of humans. Love the sinner and hate the sin.

Christianity teaches that we are, as individuals, personally guilty of the sin committed by our ancestor, Adam. "Woke identity politics" does not.teach any such thing.

Hans Blaster · May 3, 2024

BCP1928 said:
Christianity teaches that we are, as individuals, personally guilty of the sin committed by our ancestor, Adam. "Woke identity politics" does not.teach any such thing.

I had forgotten about Adam. THere is really no arguing against that one. (Crosses fingers...)

Hans Blaster · May 3, 2024

stevevw said:
Which is your country.

Frankly this half sentence makes no sense in context. You seem to be arguing against my claim that the US was never a unified Christian nation. Since that's the only one I care about, it is the one I will respond about. The rest had scattered wars of religion for centuries.

stevevw said:
As far as I understand most western nations have similar politics and social norms. There was a time when these nations at least the dominant ones were 90% Christian and therefore had unified ideas and beliefs about how this applied socially and reflected in laws, policies, conventions and norms.

The western nations certainly do not have similar politics and that has been the case for a while. Fascism, communism, and liberal democracy are not "similar politics", but let's move on to more reasonable claims, like religious unity.

Let's start with the religious separatists. Those that are still Christians (and very devout) but have such differing views that they feel a need to live separately from the rest. Going back to the earliest, pre-US days of this land one of the first major colonies was formed by a group that were called "Separatists". A century later came German Amish and Mennonites and another century a home-brewed religious movement that is so different the majority of other Christians don't even consider them Christians -- Mormons. Then there were the 3 English colonies set up nominally to protect a group of Christians from other Christians -- Pennsylvania for Quakers, Maryland for Catholics, and Rhode Island (Providence Plantation) for non-Puritans. Yep, unified ideas, laws, conventions, and norms, that's the ticket.

It took a long time before even half of the land claimed and controlled by the US or its predecessor colonial states was occupied by Christians. The rest was occupied by non-Christian peoples.

But let us set aside for the moment the non-Christian native peoples outside of "western civilization" and the internal conflicts of various Christian sects. Were 90% of (non-native) Americans ever Christian? Perhaps, but it is hard to tell. A few percent of the people who were practicing a different religion (starting with Jews and then later other groups as well) have always been here. Especially earlier, before the conversion of most, the Africans held in bondage were almost all non-Christians. Then there are plenty of non-participating and non-believers. It only takes a few percent of them to break your 90% threshold.

Part of the problem we all suffer from is the impression of peak Christian participation in the post-war period (1946-1965) when Christian participation and birth rates boomed.

stevevw said:
Political parties had differing philosophy about how to achieve a better society economically and socially but they often agreed on many common values and core morals.

Thats all coming apart it seems lately as society is becoming more polarised and radical. Its more about 'us verses them' and intolerence for differences rather than inclusion and acceptence of differences for which the fore fathers envisioned as being made in the image of God and of equal worth.

If you think this is a peak period of political turmoil, then you are ill informed about the politics of the past.

BCP1928 · May 3, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
Part of the problem we all suffer from is the impression of peak Christian participation in the post-war period (1946-1965) when Christian participation and birth rates boomed.

The postwar period was also when the dominant Protestant majority began to recant the hostility and violence previously shown to Roman Catholics--which history they would not want to bring to the attention of enthusiastic new followers like our friend Steve.

dzheremi · May 3, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
Then it fell away a long time a go. The primary mode of expansion of Christianity has been imperialism, colonialism, and force conversion since Constantine converted the Roman Empire. Then the expansion across Europe, the Americas, Africa, etc.

Those of us whose churches were established long before Constantine are in the clear, then? Sweet.

Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

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