Only Three Are Tormented Eternally

[Mr. M]

Why do you keep bringing up your ability to hear from the Spirit (better than other people)?

I have not compared myself to anyone. I testify to the work of the Holy Spirit in my life, for this is Truth.
I didn't read anybody's book or attend a seminary. I have lived the life, and when I spend time in God's word, it is in conversation with the Spirit. I ask and receive. I know the difference. I know how to study and teach. I was a nuclear engineer. I worked hard to achieve a high standard. That is not my testimony in Christ. This is Truth.
2 Corinthians 3:
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything
as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant,
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

I know this from experience and the Holy Spirit to be true. I have unlearned as much as I have learned.
Since for some reason you have decided to ask such a lame question with parenthetical accusation, let me return the favor.
How come you have been sharing all morning and don't have a testimony that gives glory to the Lord?
You are making it sound as if testifying to the Voice of the Spirit is boasting. It only requires listening. I have spent countless hours, not reading books on prophecy, attending conferences and meetings (not to say these things are without purpose). Just listening. Read a passage, ask a question, sit quietly. Listen. Am I lying to you? Is that your concern? I assure you I have no use for a bogus testimony.
My concern is that you don't seem to know the importance of having one.
For example,
1 Peter 3: 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready
to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope
that is in you, with meekness and fear;

Without the Holy Spirit , I would have nothing to say.
Do your papers include your testimony?
If so, I can guarantee that I will read them. If not, I will forgo.
What say you?
Is it wrong to say that anyone who spends more time seeking the Lord and drawing near would know Him better? What does draw near to God mean to you? Attend church more often? Surely not. He is found in your secret place of prayer. Full disclosure. If I share what I receive by the Spirit, I have zero concern if anyone thinks I am lying.

 

[All Becomes New]

How come you have been sharing all morning and don't have a testimony that gives glory to the Lord?

I do have a testimony.

Do your papers include your testimony?

I have written about my testimony lots of times. I have a longish testimony you can read on my blog.

Is it wrong to say that anyone who spends more time seeking the Lord and drawing near would know Him better?

That is not for me to say.

What does draw near to God mean to you?

Aligning your will with the Father's will. John 15:7.

 

[Mr. M]

That is not for me to say.

That is okay, the Bible says so and I already cited the scriptures.

Aligning your will with the Father's will. John 15:7.

Okay. Abiding is essential. Do the scriptures address how that is done?
Can an individual pursue God's presence fully, w/o the fellowship of the Saints?

 

[All Becomes New]

I already cited the scriptures.

I don't remember every verse you quoted, so you will have to remind me.

Do the scriptures address how that is done?

Can an individual pursue God's presence fully, w/o the fellowship of the Saints?

Is it possible? Yes. Is it advisable? Absolutely not. It also largely depends on the time/place you live.

 

[Mr. M]

I don't remember every verse you quoted, so you will have to remind me.

I will do no such thing, I have already spent hours on the thread.

I prefer August Burns Red, but that is not going to suffice in answering the question.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it advisable? Absolutely not. It also largely depends on the time/place you live.

I did say the fullness. In Christ means an active part of His Body, participating in the fellowship, as described throughout the apostolic doctrine, for example, 1 Co 14.

 

[All Becomes New]

I did say the fullness. In Christ means an active part of His Body, participating in the fellowship, as described throughout the apostolic doctrine, for example, 1 Co 14.

You have not imagined how bad things can get, as I have then.

 

[Mr. M]

You have not imagined how bad things can get, as I have then.

Meaning what?
That I have not spent years in the isolation of being a full time watchman intercessor without a friend or family near?
You do not know anything that I need to imagine.
The point is I was able "to fully put on Christ" only because of being dedicated to the fellowship and ministry.
Paul was in and out of fellowship for years until the Holy Spirit singled he and Barnabas out for their first mission. I accepted Christ as Savior at 12. I was sent out from home and family at 40 and accepted the full commitment to ministering in the Word and prayer.
My fellowship since then has been in very small, isolated relationships, where I found someone going through a time and in need of the right hand of fellowship, with its exhortations, edification and comfort. It became very intimate, and then I was directed to move on. Not once or twice, many times, serving as an evangelist's armor bearer. Living in an inner city homeless shelter for nearly a year and ministering to hurting people where they were at.
My heart remains firmly anchored to my home church, where most of my Memorials were established and remain in mind.
You seem to be turning competitive, like you have something to prove to me. Don't bother, you do not. I already made it clear than someone's reaction to my testimony is not my concern.
A walk of faith requires selflessness. You continue to rub the wrong way, promoting your website, your insights, yourself, all the while attacking me personally. From your first post accusing me of thinking I am God, to questioning my relationship with the Holy Spirit. This is not a competition, if it was you would be 30 years, one too many mornings, and a thousand miles behind.
Would you please call it a day? I need a break, from you.

 

[All Becomes New]

all the while attacking me personally

I never personally attacked you. I asked questions. Sorry if that is offensive to you, but asking questions should not be taken offensively.

 

[Mr. M]

I never personally attacked you. I asked questions. Sorry if that is offensive to you, but asking questions should not be taken offensively.

Sure, asking someone if they think they are God is a great way to start a godly conversation.
For the record, I do not take offense, I just receive such inappropriate comments as ignorance.
You really feel the need to justify yourself don't you? You don't know when you have worn out your welcome.
No worries, it is taken care of.

 

[All Becomes New]

Sure, asking someone if they think they are God is a great way to start a godly conversation.
For the record, I do not take offense, I just receive such inappropriate comments as ignorance.
You really feel the need to justify yourself don't you? You don't know when you have worn out your welcome.
No worries, it is taken care of.

"Who are you to question God's justice?" Should I have said that instead? I gave you the same response God gave Job.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Thank you lismore for citing this passage. I would note that this pertains to the tribulation and the mark of the beast and should not be applied to all who will be judged. I am also hesitant to think that this torment is eternal, as the verse states that "the smoke from the torment continues to rise. It is hard to imagine this lasting beyond the end of the age, but it does seem to be a memorial of judgment specific to accepting the mark of the beast. Definitely worthy of deep consideration of the matter. Great response!

You may want to rethink your understanding of the mark of the beast. All who worship the beast have the mark of the beast and it says all those whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast. The beast is not just a future entity.

Revelation 13:8 All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.

Regardless, that passage (Rev 14:9-11) proves that there are not just 3 who will experience eternal torment in the lake of fire.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

How is " sinners suffering in hell for eternity just" not just one more lie from satan to make God out to be a monster and not the loving God that he is? God hates unjust measurements, one of the very things he said he specifically hates, and yet you say that to punish eternally for a mortal finite sin is justified? No, Gods judgments are fair and loving and he correct by removing all that is not of him, some have more some have less, but no person deserves or will get eternal punishment, that's just not Gods character or nature. Lamentations 3:31-33 For the Lord will not reject us forever, though he causes grief, he then has compassion on us according to the abundance of his loyal kindness, for hi is not predisposed to afflict or to grieve people.

God's ways are not our ways. You are only looking at this from the human, temporal perspective. How is receiving eternal rewards just then? Should we reject any eternal rewards God tries to give us because they are not just? Should we say "No, thanks. I don't deserve that. I should maybe just be given some temporary award, if anything, and then I should just cease to exist."?

From God's perspective, rejecting an offer of eternal life deserves an eternal punishment. It has nothing to do with what we consider to be just in our finite minds from our temporal perspective.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Everlasting, means eternal to me.

Right. The same Greek word translated as "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46 in relation to "everlasting punishment", which is aiōnios (Strong's G166) is used in Mark 10:30.

Mark 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. 29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal (aiōnios) life.

So, the everlasting punishment that unbelievers will receive lasts the same duration as the eternal life that believers will receive.

 

[Hoping2]

Then your form of faith is merely perpetual doubt, never knowing.

Correct; and that keeps me from ever getting lazy or over-confident.

Always putting on a act so your maybe might be someday, maybe.

I don't need to put on any act, as it is only God and His Son Jesus who will know the truth about me.
Plenty of posers put on acts, only to impress other men.

The evil present in exactly no one does the above. That's part of the deception we all carry.

I don't understand your...grammar.
Care to reword that ?

The heart is deceiving, above all things. This fact doesn't change when we are "born again" or "believe." Jer. 17:9

I beg to differ.
Repentance itself makes a huge difference, in those who have turned from sin.

We simply know or are supposed to know our state and are enabled to "tell the truth" about it, whereas prior we were entirely blinded by the god of this world. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8

I know where I stand right now, but I don't know where I will stand in ten or twenty years.

And I don't believe there are any sinless persons, but a whole of of deceivers still attached to people who claim it to be so

If being obedient to God is so impossible, why are there any deceivers at all ?

 

[Hoping2]

Destruction has no end.
This is why when death is hurled into the lake of fire, it is forever destroyed... as the other things hurled there... including Satan.

Satan has no end, and neither will his suffering have an end.

Yes. Eternity in the second death. That's where everything in opposition to God will be. Destroyed forever.
To us, that may be, like if something vanished. To God, destruction is before him, as something exiting. So it is everlasting.
This is why what goes into everlasting destruction is likened to being tormented, because everything that is destroyed eternally, is before God, forever.

If it has been destroyed, how can it also be before God forever ?

Until people accept that the lake of fire isn't a literal lake of fire, as the angel plainly explained,

Where in the bible is that ?

they will continue to see people alive forever... which isn't taught in the Bible.
It won't happen though. Circular reasoning will keep people in the cycle of eternal life in torments.

As a loving God has made the way to avoid all of that; (second death, lake of fire, eternal suffering, fire without light, hopelessness, and no sleep),
I have chosen the alternative to all of it.

 

[Hoping2]

Did the jailer at Philippi know he was saved? We read:
“And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."” (Ac 16:30-31 NKJV)

They didn't say, "You may perhaps be saved, but there is no certainty about your salvation until the day of judgement."
However, I may have misunderstood your post, in which case, I apologize.

If the jailer reconsidered his response, ten years later, his initial status will be lost.
No man can say they "won the race", until the race is over.

 

[Hoping2]

Yes I agree 100% that after the mortal body dies then the judgement but why do you think that the judgement is equal to the sentence?

The story by Jesus about the sheep going one way and the goats going the other way.
Only two alternatives.
There is no category of "sorta goatish" or sorta sheepish".
The day of judgement will be absolutely black and white.
No shades of gray.

Just like our court system you have a judgement then you get a sentence. The judgement is permanent but the sentence has a beginning and an end.
Its like this if you murder someone you are judged as a murderer, that is forever you can't erase it, but the sentence maybe 40 years in jail, that has a beginning and and end but that person will forever have the stain of murderer on them.
Gods ways are similar once your mortal body dies you are judged, either you followed Jesus or you did not, that is the judgement. The sentence is what comes next, if one has followed Jesus then you go straight to the Father " to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"
The sentence is according to what you have done in life, some will need more correction some less, but it does not go on forever that's a pagan idea not Gods.
What makes you any different after your death? Did not scripture tell us when we put our trust in Jesus we cross over from death to life? Why do you think that would be different for those who need their mortal temporary body removed so that they me see Jesus more clearly without the sin riddled flesh, we are not our bodies we are spiritual beings in a temporary body.
Let me show you one reason that scripture has shown of people accepting Jesus after their mortal body is dead.
John 14:6 " I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me" So you must believe that all those who came before Jesus had to accept Jesus after their mortal body was dead, that's why Jesus went to Sheol to preach to the dead. Scripture says he led the captives free.
If you don't think that all those who came before Jesus had to accept him after death then your only other options are there are multiple paths to the Father if so why did Jesus have to die? or only those who lived after Jesus can get to the Father.
This is why I believe that you can repent after the mortal body dies, also if you couldn't scripture would be false because scripture says " Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord" The Greek word for confess in this verse is Exomologeo which means - to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations, its not a forced false confession of some one conquered.

Thanks be to God for a real judgement, based on God's ideals and not man's ideals.

 

[Hoping2]

Everlasting destruction has no end. There's no coming back from that.

All throughout the Bible, it's always life or death.

Even one of the most quoted verses in the Bible states this fact.

John 3;16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Only those that believe in him will have everlasting life. It doesn't state both have everlasting life.

I'ld rather discuss the joys of those eternally with Christ, than mull the eternal sufferings of the sinners.

 

[Hoping2]

Right. The same Greek word translated as "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46 in relation to "everlasting punishment", which is aiōnios (Strong's G166) is used in Mark 10:30.

Mark 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. 29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal (aiōnios) life.

So, the everlasting punishment that unbelievers will receive lasts the same duration as the eternal life that believers will receive.

Yes indeedy.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Correct

Faith is perpetual doubt. Got it.

that keeps me from ever getting lazy or over-confident.

Yes, perpetual threats are designed to keep people intimidated and in check. Can't always say that's a bad thing with people who tend to go off the rails.

I don't need to put on any act, as it is only God and His Son Jesus who will know the truth about me.
Plenty of posers put on acts, only to impress other men.

There is no act required. We're all sinners, period.

The Perfect Sinless Sacrificed Lamb Seat is only occupied by Jesus. That's the way it is. There won't be multiple Jesus'

I don't understand your...grammar.
Care to reword that ?

Let's try a synopsis of Paul for the same statements
:
Romans 7:21
---evil is present with me
Gal. 4:14
---temptation is in my flesh
2 Cor. 12:7
---a messenger of Satan is in my flesh
Romans 7:7-13 correlated to Mark 7:21-23
---evil lawless thoughts defile me

These are all honest presentations by Paul, no baloney, no phony. Very few care to step into those places. The evil present within them does not allow people to speak truthfully

I beg to differ.

Your position does not allow you to believe or accept Jer. 17:9 applies to you, but does apply to others, and you must therefore deny it for yourself

Got it

I know where I stand right now, but I don't know where I will stand in ten or twenty years.

Or the next 5 minutes for that matter. As long as you enact whatever formulas, incantations and perhaps ceremonial exercises that keeps you safe, you're good.

Got it

If being obedient to God is so impossible, why are there any deceivers at all ?

• Romans 11:32
  For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.