If the Gospel was False... What Then???

[Valletta]

Why? The RCC is one of the greatest creators of atheists on the whole planet.

The culture and the teaching policies of the Catholic Church that began in the 1960s and 70s put forth teenagers that did not know their faith. The parents assumed the schools were doing the teaching, so they were even more unprepared than other Christian religions. Without God, without knowing the holiness of the Church, they were easy prey for Satan.

 

[partinobodycular]

They had one single command: don’t eat from this tree. And what did they do? Exactly that.

Far be it from me to imagine myself in Adam and Eve's place, but in as much as I can, I can only hope that I would've made the same choice. For as painful as the knowledge of good and evil has been, it's been a struggle worth undertaking, and I can only believe that God knew that.

If you truly have faith in God, then believe that God truly has faith in us, and that's why that tree was in the garden, not in the hope that they wouldn't eat of it, but in the gut wrenching hope that they would. For what kind of children would we be if we had no understanding of what God goes through. No understanding of the pain that He's willing to endure for us, and no understanding of His mercy.

Would we truly be His children at all?

So yes, God gave Adam and Eve a choice, because it was too painful of a choice for Him to make for us. And I'm quite sure, that that will be the very first sin that He forgives us of. My only concern, is that He will feel the need for us to forgive Him.

To answer that question, has somebody got a cross somewhere, for I would like to carry it.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The culture and the teaching policies of the Catholic Church that began in the 1960s and 70s put forth teenagers that did not know their faith.

This seems a likely excuse. If accurate, then it is the church's own fault.

The parents assumed the schools were doing the teaching, so they were even more unprepared than other Christian religions.

Why would parents assume schools were teaching their religion to their children. That would be illegal.

Without God, without knowing the holiness of the Church, they were easy prey for Satan.

Or maybe we just didn't find either god or satan to be plausible beings.

 

[Valletta]

This seems a likely excuse. If accurate, then it is the church's own fault.

Why would parents assume schools were teaching their religion to their children. That would be illegal.

Or maybe we just didn't find either god or satan to be plausible beings.

I'm talking about Catholic schools, many Catholics sent their children to Catholic elementary and high schools. People within the Catholic Church indeed made poor decisions. Bishops were convinced that they need not have to be on the board of the universities, and once they left the universities soon lost real touch with the Catholic faith. It seems to me there were a lot more agnostics (there is a God but he thinks just like me) than true atheists. Most people see a guiding hand in creation.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I'm talking about Catholic schools, many Catholics sent their children to Catholic elementary and high schools.

Those poor children.

People within the Catholic Church indeed made poor decisions. Bishops were convinced that they need not have to be on the board of the universities, and once they left the universities soon lost real touch with the Catholic faith.

That seems like a them problem, not a me problem. (Most catholic universities are rather small and unimportant to the whole of things.)

It seems to me there were a lot more agnostics (there is a God but he thinks just like me) than true atheists.

Someone who thinks there is a god that things like they do is a theist, not an agnostic. (Makes me wonder what you think a "true atheist" is at this point. Do I want that conversation??)

Most people see a guiding hand in creation.

They are just seeing things then.

 

[stevevw]

Now would be a good time to learn:

Evangelicalism - Wikipedia

Nuh, not me lol. I may be a lapsed Catholic but I am not a protestant by any means. Don't they often compromise more than most churches. I know its some of the protestant denominations like Anglicans and the Episcopals (not all) for example allow women priests, SSM and abortion. The Catholics would never allow such things. They have stuck to the teachings.

I didn't know you were in charge of it.

Yes I think a Christian knows what is Christian and what is not.

You statements are then quite confusing.

Well it would be if your reading stuff into it. The fact is I am not a practicing Catholic and the words I may have said a few weeks ago is not going to make me one lol. Not that I don't agree with some of their beliefs and traditions. I just didn't relate to that form of worship.

About half of all Christians are. They tend to be born to it.

Yes and thats why I don't understand how they can be called Christians. It becomes like a label you put on your passport on forms. Like the label itself carries more weight than the actual definition of the word.

Why? The RCC is one of the greatest creators of atheists on the whole planet.

Humm I think maybe second to radical Islam. I don't think the Catholic and Protestant wars in Ireland drove too many away. They just changed sides lol. But yest the church has driven many people away. Its also saved many.

Its like the police. Corrupt and unjust policing makes people hate the police and not trust the law. But the idea of law and order and policing is good. Just like bad church leaders make people hate the church. But the idea of the church as taught by Christ and the disciples is a good thing as the whole idea is to spread the gospel and you can't do that without a church.

A few! ex-Catholics are one of the largest categories of adults in the whole USA. Far bigger than converts to Catholicism

Yes I know. Not just that but overall there are more people identifying as non religion than ever before. I think Britain now has more non religious than religious especially with post millenials. Soon there will be more non Christians than Christians.

Roughly equal number join other religions as just leave religion all together after leaving the RCC.

Other religions as in Muslim or Hindu or another Christian denomination. I would be surprised if they joined a completely alien religion to Christianity. That would be a turn around if they were once born again.

Actually I remember now there were a few catholics joining the Hare Krishna after frying their brains on acid. Hare Krishna seemed to be the cool religion to join.

There is nothing in Catholicism that *requires* anyone to have 'religious experiences'. There are requirements for worship and prayer and repentance and belief, but none for "experiences".

No wonder nothing happened and it was so boring that I could not wait to get out.

I am not sure. I always see the catholic tradition itself as an experience. Walk into a Catholic Cathederal and you get a sense of awe and spirituality coming out the walls, the stain glass windowns, the cross with a clear statue of the pierced and crucified Christ hanging centrally and I think for some it brings them to their knees.

From what I have heard when people visit the original churches in Jerusalem its a life changing experience and I am sure many Christians have come closer to God as a result.

THough the Catholics believe that baptism alone even as a baby is what brings the holy spirit and they are born of Gods spirit. They also recognise the need for personal confession and commitment to Christ. Thus they will have a personal experience when thery personally commit to Christ when older.

I don't think having that you have been baptised as a baby on your birth certificat equates to be being again. Though some may use it as such.

 

[Joseph G]

One is not indifferent to one's own suffering, one chooses to endure it.

Was Jesus stoicly "indifferent" (not affected by passion or feeling; especially manifesting indifference to pleasure or pain), or did Jesus suffer the extreme displeasure, repugnance and aversion of divine Holiness in the presence of pure Evil.

Would you be indifferent in the presence of the butchering of babies?
Or would you suffer if your were unable to keep from watching such an event?

John 11:35 KJV
"Jesus wept."

 

[BCP1928]

Nuh, not me lol. I may be a lapsed Catholic but I am not a protestant by any means.

Yet you appear to embrace Protestant theology and worship in a Protestant church. OK.

Don't they often compromise more than most churches. I know its some of the protestant denominations like Anglicans and the Episcopals (not all) for example allow women priests, SSM and abortion. The Catholics would never allow such things. They have stuck to the teachings.

Yes I think a Christian knows what is Christian and what is not.

Well it would be if your reading stuff into it. The fact is I am not a practicing Catholic and the words I may have said a few weeks ago is not going to make me one lol. Not that I don't agree with some of their beliefs and traditions. I just didn't relate to that form of worship.

Yes and thats why I don't understand how they can be called Christians.

They can be called Christians if they subscribe to the tenets of the Nicene Creed which I posted earlier. That has been the basic statement of the faith throughout Christendom since 325 AD. It is also the definition of a Christian that applies in this forum.

It becomes like a label you put on your passport on forms. Like the label itself carries more weight than the actual definition of the word.

Humm I think maybe second to radical Islam. I don't think the Catholic and Protestant wars in Ireland drove too many away. They just changed sides lol. But yest the church has driven many people away. Its also saved many.

Its like the police. Corrupt and unjust policing makes people hate the police and not trust the law. But the idea of law and order and policing is good. Just like bad church leaders make people hate the church. But the idea of the church as taught by Christ and the disciples is a good thing as the whole idea is to spread the gospel and you can't do that without a church.

Yes I know. Not just that but overall there are more people identifying as non religion than ever before. I think Britain now has more non religious than religious especially with post millenials. Soon there will be more non Christians than Christians.

Other religions as in Muslim or Hindu or another Christian denomination. I would be surprised if they joined a completely alien religion to Christianity. That would be a turn around if they were once born again.

Actually I remember now there were a few catholics joining the Hare Krishna after frying their brains on acid. Hare Krishna seemed to be the cool religion to join.

No wonder nothing happened and it was so boring that I could not wait to get out.

I am not sure. I always see the catholic tradition itself as an experience. Walk into a Catholic Cathederal and you get a sense of awe and spirituality coming out the walls, the stain glass windowns, the cross with a clear statue of the pierced and crucified Christ hanging centrally and I think for some it brings them to their knees.

From what I have heard when people visit the original churches in Jerusalem its a life changing experience and I am sure many Christians have come closer to God as a result.

THough the Catholics believe that baptism alone even as a baby is what brings the holy spirit and they are born of Gods spirit. They also recognise the need for personal confession and commitment to Christ. Thus they will have a personal experience when thery personally commit to Christ whchurches that experience is called "en older.

In Roman Catholic and other Traditional Christian churches, that experience is called "Confirmation."

I don't think having that you have been baptised as a baby on your birth certificat equates to be being again. Though some may use it as such.

In the US, birth certificates do not mention religion or baptism. What possible use could be made of such information anyway?

 

[Clare73]

Just to be technically correct, you have no way of knowing whether I part with Jesus and Peter or not,

Contraire. . .

I won't be relitigating posts #96, #98 with you.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Nuh, not me lol.

Seriously, I would read the article about Evangelicalism if I were you. You might recognize it.

I may be a lapsed Catholic but I am not a protestant by any means. Don't they often compromise more than most churches. I know its some of the protestant denominations like Anglicans and the Episcopals (not all) for example allow women priests, SSM and abortion.

Neither of those churches (which are actually the same church) are evangelical. They are main-line/traditional churches. Social issues arent the dividing line. It is about style of worship and theology.

The Catholics would never allow such things. They have stuck to the teachings.

Yes I think a Christian knows what is Christian and what is not.

I'm beginning to question that notion.

Well it would be if your reading stuff into it. The fact is I am not a practicing Catholic and the words I may have said a few weeks ago is not going to make me one lol. Not that I don't agree with some of their beliefs and traditions. I just didn't relate to that form of worship.

Which, again, sounds like you go to an evangelical church.

Yes and thats why I don't understand how they can be called Christians.

Now you are saying Catholics can be called Christians because they were raised in the faith.

It becomes like a label you put on your passport on forms. Like the label itself carries more weight than the actual definition of the word.

No religious label on my passport or other official documents. I don't live in a theocracy (yet).

Humm I think maybe second to radical Islam.

Are there a lot of non-believers in Islamic countries?

I don't think the Catholic and Protestant wars in Ireland drove too many away. They just changed sides lol. But yest the church has driven many people away. Its also saved many.

Try this:

Irreligion in the Republic of Ireland - Wikipedia

Its like the police. Corrupt and unjust policing makes people hate the police and not trust the law. But the idea of law and order and policing is good. Just like bad church leaders make people hate the church. But the idea of the church as taught by Christ and the disciples is a good thing as the whole idea is to spread the gospel and you can't do that without a church.

Yes I know. Not just that but overall there are more people identifying as non religion than ever before. I think Britain now has more non religious than religious especially with post millenials. Soon there will be more non Christians than Christians.

Other religions as in Muslim or Hindu or another Christian denomination. I would be surprised if they joined a completely alien religion to Christianity. That would be a turn around if they were once born again.

Actually I remember now there were a few catholics joining the Hare Krishna after frying their brains on acid. Hare Krishna seemed to be the cool religion to join.

There are actual studies of such things. The PRRI studies it in the US. There is likely something similar in your country.

No wonder nothing happened and it was so boring that I could not wait to get out.

I am not sure. I always see the catholic tradition itself as an experience. Walk into a Catholic Cathederal and you get a sense of awe and spirituality coming out the walls, the stain glass windowns, the cross with a clear statue of the pierced and crucified Christ hanging centrally and I think for some it brings them to their knees.

From what I have heard when people visit the original churches in Jerusalem its a life changing experience and I am sure many Christians have come closer to God as a result.

THough the Catholics believe that baptism alone even as a baby is what brings the holy spirit and they are born of Gods spirit. They also recognise the need for personal confession and commitment to Christ. Thus they will have a personal experience when thery personally commit to Christ when older.

Some may have spiritual experiences from those events, others will not. The spiritual experience is not required.

I don't think having that you have been baptised as a baby on your birth certificat equates to be being again. Though some may use it as such.

No record of baptism on my birth certificate.

 

[stevevw]

Yet you appear to embrace Protestant theology and worship in a Protestant church. OK.

Who said I worship at a protestant church. I said I was saved by the Salvos but that does mean I worship at their church. I did for a while but I moved on. I went to a Pentecostal church for a while in the heart of Kings Cross in Sydney. I have also been to the Uniting church but at present I go to a non denominal local house church. I work with various churches as well in the local community.

They can be called Christians if they subscribe to the tenets of the Nicene Creed which I posted earlier. That has been the basic statement of the faith throughout Christendom since 325 AD. It is also the definition of a Christian that applies in this forum.

The Nicene Creed is central doctrine as its more or less citing scripture. But I mean the gospel. The Gospel is the central teaching for Christians. That the Son who the Nicene Creed says was crucified is personally accepted into ones heart. This is the gospel and what brings rebirth and salvation.

This should also be the same for all Christian deonominations because just like the Nicene Creed is biblical so is being born again of the spirit. Paul spends a lot of time of this necessity when he speaks about putting the old self to death with Christ and being born again with Christs resurrection.

In Roman Catholic and other Traditional Christian churches, that experience is called "Confirmation."

Yes as I discovered. You know I have photos of my Confirmation looking smart like I just won a prize. I had no clue it was about being born again. But I do think these traditions did rub off. Especially the confession part. Having to come to God and tell him your sins. That stayed with me and when I was down and out that was really a life saver. If I did not have that then there would be nothing.

In the US, birth certificates do not mention religion or baptism. What possible use could be made of such information anyway?

Lol. I don't know. It was a bot like virtue signaling when being a Catholic or churchy was ok. Saying you belonged to a church sort of gave the impression you were honest and reputable. I remember those movies where they were interigation the suspect and they asked "are you a Christian son', are you a God fearing man' lol. It was like a badge. But now its the opposite.

 

[BCP1928]

Who said I worship at a protestant church. I said I was saved by the Salvos but that does mean I worship at their church. I did for a while but I moved on. I went to a Pentecostal church for a while in the heart of Kings Cross in Sydney. I have also been to the Uniting church but at present I go to a non denominal local house church. I work with various churches as well in the local community.

All of those are Evangelical Protestant churches.

The Nicene Creed is central doctrine as its more or less citing scripture. But I mean the gospel. The Gospel is the central teaching for Christians. That the Son who the Nicene Creed says was crucified is personally accepted into ones heart. This is the gospel and what brings rebirth and salvation.

This should also be the same for all Christian deonominations because just like the Nicene Creed is biblical so is being born again of the spirit. Paul spends a lot of time of this necessity when he speaks about putting the old self to death with Christ and being born again with Christs resurrection.

Yes as I discovered. You know I have photos of my Confirmation looking smart like I just won a prize. I had no clue it was about being born again. But I do think these traditions did rub off. Especially the confession part. Having to come to God and tell him your sins. That stayed with me and when I was down and out that was really a life saver. If I did not have that then there would be nothing.

Lol. I don't know. It was a bot like virtue signaling when being a Catholic or churchy was ok. Saying you belonged to a church sort of gave the impression you were honest and reputable. I remember those movies where they were interigation the suspect and they asked "are you a Christian son', are you a God fearing man' lol. It was like a badge. But now its the opposite.

 

[stevevw]

All of those are Evangelical Protestant churches.

Like I said it doesn't matter to me. If they are standing on the gospel then they are doing good work. It wasn't because the Savos were evangelising but because they were rolling their sleeves up and getting down to street level and helping the needy when no one else wasn't that made the Salvos respected.

Just because I went to these churches doesn't mean I joined them. Some were a couple of visits and others for a bit longer. I found the Pentecostals ok. They had some doos music. But they were a bit too TV evangelist for me.

My present church Portwood street church is non denominational so its not Protestant. In fact most have had similar experiences to me and some have Catholic backgrounds. But we are not Catholic either. Just a group of likeminded people getting together in a small home church. Well its actually a shed in an industrial area.

 

[BCP1928]

Like I said it doesn't matter to me. If they are standing on the gospel then they are doing good work. It wasn't because the Savos were evangelising but because they were rolling their sleeves up and getting down to street level and helping the needy when no one else wasn't that made the Salvos respected.

Just because I went to these churches doesn't mean I joined them. Some were a couple of visits and others for a bit longer. I found the Pentecostals ok. They had some doos music. But they were a bit too TV evangelist for me.

My present church Portwood street church is non denominational so its not Protestant. In fact most have had similar experiences to me and some have Catholic backgrounds. But we are not Catholic either. Just a group of likeminded people getting together in a small home church. Well its actually a shed in an industrial area.

"Non-denominational" is Protestant, too. It just means that they are not affiliated with any particular Protestant denomination.

 

[Hans Blaster]

My present church Portwood street church is non denominational so its not Protestant. In fact most have had similar experiences to me and some have Catholic backgrounds. But we are not Catholic either. Just a group of likeminded people getting together in a small home church. Well its actually a shed in an industrial area.

Non-denominational Christianity is part of Protestantism, just as Protestantism is part of the Western/Latin church tradition.

Catholics who go to a protestant church are ex-Catholics. That's where the half that goes to other religions generally ends up.

 

[Clare73]

Non-denominational Christianity is part of Protestantism

It's Protestant if it doesn't believe in the "real presence" in the Lord's Supper.

, just as Protestantism is part of the Western/Latin church tradition.

Catholics who go to a protestant church are ex-Catholics. That's where the half that goes to other religions generally ends up.

 

[BCP1928]

It's Protestant if it doesn't believe in the "real presence" in the Lord's Supper.

A more salient difference in the context of these discussion is the doctrine of Sola Scriptura which is unique to Protestants.

 

[stevevw]

"Non-denominational" is Protestant, too. It just means that they are not affiliated with any particular Protestant denomination.

Well there you go I am a protestant and I did not even know it.

It still doesn't make sense and I think if we were officially a protestant church they would kick us out as we disagree with much of the protestant beliefs. Like the idea of women priests, allowing SSM and abortion, and other secular ideas into the church. We stick to the tradition which really is the CC as they were the church that rose from Christs teachings.

 

[stevevw]

Non-denominational Christianity is part of Protestantism, just as Protestantism is part of the Western/Latin church tradition.

Catholics who go to a protestant church are ex-Catholics. That's where the half that goes to other religions generally ends up.

That seems very telling as to the ambiguity of the Protestants in that anything that is not Catholic is protestant. That means this could contain many different belief positions.

How can that be that someone with completely different belief positions that may align with the Catholic church and yet be Protestant. How can two churchs one that allows say SSM and women priests and another who doesn't belong to the same protestant church.

If x catholics set up a church that incorporates witchcraft does that mean because I come under the protestants that I now must support witchcraft because protestants do, Seems a strange logic.

 

[Hans Blaster]

That seems very telling as to the ambiguity of the Protestants in that anything that is not Catholic is protestant. That means this could contain many different belief positions.

No, not "anything". See @BCP1928 's posts. Protestants follow the Nicean Creed and are part of the Western/Latin church tradition. The Orthodox are not Protestant or Catholic.

How can that be that someone with completely different belief positions that may align with the Catholic church and yet be Protestant.

Because they share traditions and theologies of Western (Latin) Christianity, but don't accept the Pope as the big cheese. Some say the Church of England is much like the Catholic Church in style and structure, but as a resident of a state named after the head of that church you should know why it split and became Protestant.

How can two churchs one that allows say SSM and another who doesn't belong to the same protestant church.

No, those would likely be two different Protestant churches. (Again you assume that SSM is a defining characteristic of denominational categorization. It really isn't. There are denominations that are splitting over the issue but a Methodist denomination that splits into to over it just creates two Methodist denominations where there was one before. The big split in the American Baptist church was over slavery, the split still remains, but the issue is no longer pertinent. Churches split for lots of reasons. )

If x catholics set up a church that incorporates witchcraft does that mean because I come under the protestants that I now must support witchcraft because protestants do, Seems a strange logic.

No.

First a church that was Catholicism + Witchcraft would really be protestant in the same way Vodou isn't protestant. It would have not connection to the reformation reformers like Luther or Zwingli. Second, there is no central organizing in Protestantism about "novel worship or belief" (or really at all) nor any requirement that what is adopted by one group be adopted by all. There is a lot of variation in Protestantism about sacrements, salvation, etc. Far too much for me to understand or care about.

Just look into that church you attend. Find out where its theological underpinnings come from. I think you'll find they are ultimately Protestant in nature. For example, is it "sola scriptura"? (See post #117)