Leftist ‘faith leaders’ twisting Bible to support wasteful gov't spending

[FireDragon76]

I already pointed out that Trump avoided taxes and was taken to court.
Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

Jesus articulated modern monetary theory almost 2,000 years ago. Conservative economists, on the other hand, don't like talking about what money is in itself, because their whole model of economics and political messaging rests on obfuscating that reality.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Jesus articulated modern monetary theory almost 2,000 years ago. Conservative economists, on the other hand, don't like talking about what money is in itself, because their whole model of economics and political messaging rests on obfuscating that reality.

Where did Christ argue we ought print more money endlessly and borrow from future generations to serve the present?

 

[Merrill]

The author might want to read the Old Testament.

do you think we still live under the old Hebrew covenant?

 

[FireDragon76]

do you think we still live under the old Hebrew covenant?

Jesus certainly lived and taught in that manner.

 

[sanderabeer]

Jesus was a "Leftist"

Let's not label Jesus as a Leftist (nor a Conservative). This distorts His purpose.

 

[sanderabeer]

Answer the question and stop avoiding it. You are maintaining that force doesn't enter into the equation. You need to demonstrate that. Obviously what happens when you resist arrest the police must use force to compel you. This involves the potential for lethality. You can't escape this conclusion.

You're using the word force in multiple ways in an attempt to force your argument to carry more weight than it does.

 

[Vambram]

Jesus certainly lived and taught in that manner.

And we also know that the Lord God instituted the New Covenant after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord doesn't want us to live according to the many multitude of laws given in Old Testament. I believe that you would agree with that.

 

[FireDragon76]

Let's not label Jesus as a Leftist (nor a Conservative). This distorts His purpose.

What are his purposes?

In the earliest Gospels we have, Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God, which is not merely "going to heaven when you die", but also includes a just social order where the poor and marginalized are elevated, included, and loved. That isn't "apolitical".

 

[sanderabeer]

do you think we still live under the old Hebrew covenant?

We've already been through this discussion. To make it clear, I reject dispensationalism.

 

[FireDragon76]

And we also know that the Lord God instituted the New Covenant after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord doesn't want us to live according to the many multitude of laws given in Old Testament. I believe that you would agree with that.

No, I don't agree. That's not consistent with Lutheran or Reformed theology.

While the ceremonial laws are not binding on gentiles, the moral laws still reflect God's eternal character and will.

 

[Vambram]

No, I don't agree. That's not consistent with Lutheran or Reformed theology.

While the ceremonial laws are not binding on gentiles, the moral laws still reflect God's eternal character and will. The Gospel is preached in both the Old and New Testaments and both are God's Word.

I am an independent fundamentalist Baptist, and I do agree that the moral laws in the Old Testament are also taught in the New Testament. Those moral laws still indeed reflect the eternal character and will of the Lord God.

 

[sanderabeer]

What are his purposes?

In the earliest Gospels we have, Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God, which is not merely "going to heaven when you die", but also includes a just social order where the poor and marginalized are elevated, included, and loved. That isn't "apolitical".

As you've basically laid out, to come and save that which was lost.

And I didn't say His teachings were apolitical. Instead, I am saying that pushing modern labels onto Him is a reflection more of us than Him. We're trying utilize His authority to our own political benefits.

Instead of saying "Jesus is an X" we should reason "Jesus taught Y which aligns with what X believe." This properly places the discussion on what Jesus taught and our understanding of it rather than abusing Jesus as being for us and against them.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

You're using the word force in multiple ways in an attempt to force your argument to carry more weight than it does.

Force being the physical application of strength. In the end law, taxation and order in society is ultimately reliant on this aspect of reality. I have been consistent with my use of the word.

 

[FireDragon76]

As you've basically laid out, to come and save that which was lost.

And I didn't say His teachings were apolitical. Instead, I am saying that pushing modern labels onto Him is a reflection more of us than Him. We're trying utilize His authority to our own political benefits.

I don't see it that way. I was raised in a Christian family (albeit a Mainline Protestant family) and I see my politics as reflecting my values. I'm not twisting anything.

 

[sanderabeer]

Force being the physical application of strength. In the end law, taxation and order in society is ultimately reliant on this aspect of reality. I have been consistent with my use of the word.

Let's see how this played out.

Do you believe the government should take from the producers of society to give to those who are poor and needy?

If the poor and needy include disabled physically and mentally, or medically challenged, and in many other cases.

And you consider this forced wealth redistribution a Christian principle? That Christ taught?

Yeah. It goes along with feeding the poor and clothing the naked.

You believe it is part of Jesus' teaching that the state can forcibly take from another person and give it to someone you personally find worthy of it?

Answer my questions first. Where did Jesus say we are to treat people as bad as we can?

No where. But did he say you have a right to take someone else's property and redistribute it?

As I am not advocating that someone walk up to a person or their house and take property, it was a dumb thing to suggest the use of force.

Except taxes are collected via force and they aren't voluntary. So yes. You support the forced redistribution of wealth. Where did Christ teach this?

Using the word force when involving taxes is inflammatory.
Where did Jesus say not to pay taxes?

Mat 22:21
They *said to Him, “Caesar’s.” Then He *said to them, “Then pay to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.”

No it's reality. If someone doesn't pay tax the government will arrest or kill said person. The threat of force is always present.

What happens if you resist arrest?

Did Jesus tell you to resist arrest?

You are maintaining that force doesn't enter into the equation. You need to demonstrate that. Obviously what happens when you resist arrest the police must use force to compel you. This involves the potential for lethality. You can't escape this conclusion.

This exchange shows that you've shifted from "take from" to "lethality" when talking about force.

 

[sanderabeer]

I was raised in a Christian family (albeit a Mainline Protestant family) and I see my politics as reflecting my values.

This statement is not inconsistent with mine.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Let's see how this played out.





























This exchange shows that you've shifted from "take from" to "lethality" when talking about force.

Lethality is an aspect of force one cannot exclude from the meaning if one wants to see taxation applied ultimately. Because in the ultimate expression you must be willing to use lethal force in order to enforce the law. Not that this is the first option but it is the final option.

It's not as if states cease to use force when the first attempt fails. Rather they go in harder and more serious.

This is why it's difficult for me to accept the idea that our Lord supported a progressive tax policy. Because this would justify the idea of forced confiscating and redistribution of wealth. I don't think out Lord was talking about governments when he was talking to the average person. He was talking to us and our collective responsibility as Christians and followers of him. We shouldn't see to outsource what Christ expects of us to a bureaucratic machine of government.

 

[sanderabeer]

That is not the view of many Christian.

The stated view or the lived view? I think most Christians would not agree to that while thinking of it, but how they live out their lives it often reflects that.

 

[sanderabeer]

You seem to nit understand the deeper point I am making about power. Which is not unexpected.

Do you believe a government can lawfully kill someone who resists arrest?

This is a completely different question from what started the discussion.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This is a completely different question from what started the discussion.

But it's related. If yoy want to suggest Jesus supports a progressive tax structure then ultimately we have to believe Jesus supports the system of actually extracting the tax. This is backed by force, lethal or otherwise.