So, What's behind the Most Holy Name of God?

[AKAE777]

Yah o vah spelling

The spelling "Yahovah" emerged from medieval Christian scholars' misinterpretation of the Hebrew text, combining the consonants of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) with vowels from the word "Adonai" (Lord), resulting in the name "Jehovah".
Here's a more detailed explanation:

The Tetragrammaton (YHWH):
The Hebrew name for God, written as four consonants (YHWH), was considered too sacred to pronounce by Jewish tradition.

Vowel Points and "Adonai":
Jewish scribes (Masoretes) added vowel points to the Hebrew text, but they used the vowel points of "Adonai" (Lord) when encountering the Tetragrammaton, indicating that the reader should say "Adonai" instead.
Medieval Misinterpretation:
Medieval Christian scholars, unfamiliar with this Jewish scribal custom, mistakenly combined the consonants of the Tetragrammaton with the vowel points of "Adonai," creating the form "Yehowah" (or "Jehovah" in English).
The "Jehovah" Name:
This artificial name, "Jehovah," gained popularity in some Christian circles, particularly in English-speaking regions, and was used in some early English translations of the Bible.
Modern Scholarship:
Modern biblical scholarship generally uses "Yahweh" as the transliteration of the Tetragrammaton, recognizing that "Jehovah" is a misinterpretation.

 

[AKAE777]

Do you believe the passages you have quoted are telling you that the Most High is Spirit but not omnipresent? or do you believe He is not just Spirit but also has a body, form, or shape of some kind? Since we are told that the Ten Words were written with the finger of Elohim do you believe that means literal-physical fingers on a literal-physical hand?

Deuteronomy 4:12-19 KJV
12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Deuteronomy 10:14 KJV
14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

1 Kings 8:27 KJV
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

2 Chronicles 2:5-6 KJV
5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.
6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

Psalms 139:1-10 KJV
1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

LOGOS (understanding) ... not modern words like omnipresent which of course will not be found in writings that are thousands of years old. Shall I fault you every time you use a word not found in the scripture? This is getting to be too much already because, as you can see, it takes at least twice as much work to refute false claims. Just because the word omnipresent isn't found in the ancient biblical text does not mean that the concept is not found therein.

There is NO wording in the bible that suggest God is omnipresent.

 

[AbbaLove]

Yah o vah spelling

The spelling "Yahovah" emerged from medieval Christian scholars' misinterpretation of the Hebrew text,

Wrong as it was Jewish Masorete scribes that are credited with "Yahovah" NOT Christian scholars. Jehovah with J was an English variation ... (same goes for Jesus).

If you are partial to the Catholic faith (see #109) its possible you shouldn't be posting in this MJ forum with the purpose of disagreeing with Rabbi James the OP of this thread.

When you say "Ancient Hebrew" are you not including the Jewish language (YHWH) as influenced by the gentile cultures of the Jewish dispora ...

It should be noted that the "waw" dialect sound is Phoenician (and Syriac waw ܘ and Arabic wāw; whereas "vav" is definitely of Hebrew origin. There is no way of knowing (doubtful) if the "waw" (YHWH) pronounciation was ever used by the high priests before the dispersion of Jews to foreign gentile nations.
Therefore there is no adequte proof that Rabbi James is incorrect (YHVH). You can't prove that the "vav" pronunciation (instead of "waw") wasn't used by the Jewish High Priests before the dispora (beginning in 586 bce)?

daq knows better then to arque/debate Rabbi James (YHVH vs YHWH) and so too should you! Neither daq or you knows how the High Priests pronounced the tetragrammaton before the dispora and the phonetic influence (waw) of gentile cultures.
You both should be open to the reality that the Masorete scribes were correct (knowing that "waw" was a gentile pronunciation) that crept into Hebrew words to the point of being misappropriated as "Ancient Hebrew" of the Tetragrammaton. Instead of dismissing Rabbi James opening post in his thread you might consider that you are opposed to his Jewish understnding.

www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/YHVH/yhvh.html#loaded​

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.

QuoteReply
ReportEditDelete

Upvote0

 

[AbbaLove]

There is NO wording in the bible that suggest God is omnipresent.

It seems as if your venture into this MJ forum has now run amok/amouk, by going out of the way to object when there really isn't fault. If you are of the Catholic faith (see #109) it may be best if you rest from posting in this MJ thread

 

[daq]

daq apparently doesn't agree with the OP of this MJ thread when it comes to Rabbi James favoring YHVH over YHWH.

So what? Why do I get the distinct impression that you think anyone who disagrees with you is not Messianic enough for this forum? You've been murmuring and complaining about division on this board in two threads now dealing with a very controversial subject and your answer always seems to be something like, Lets just drop the arguing and all agree on one way, which of course invariably ends up being your way. I do disagree with the transliteration "YHVH", but is that reason for anathematizing people from the MJ Board? Look in the mirror when you murmur.

 

[daq]

Wrong as it was Jewish Masorete scribes that are credited with "Yahovah" NOT Christian scholars. Jehovah with J was an English variation ... (same goes for Jesus).

If you are partial to the Catholic faith (see #109) its possible you shouldn't be posting in this MJ forum with the purpose of disagreeing with Rabbi James the OP of this thread.

When you say "Ancient Hebrew" are you not including the Jewish language (YHWH) as influenced by the gentile cultures of the Jewish dispora ...

It should be noted that the "waw" dialect sound is Phoenician (and Syriac waw ܘ and Arabic wāw; whereas "vav" is definitely of Hebrew origin. There is no way of knowing (doubtful) if the "waw" (YHWH) pronounciation was ever used by the high priests before the dispersion of Jews to foreign gentile nations.
Therefore there is no adequte proof that Rabbi James is incorrect (YHVH). You can't prove that the "vav" pronunciation (instead of "waw") wasn't used by the Jewish High Priests before the dispora (beginning in 586 bce)?

daq knows better then to arque/debate Rabbi James (YHVH vs YHWH) and so too should you! Neither daq or you knows how the High Priests pronounced the tetragrammaton before the dispora and the phonetic influence (waw) of gentile cultures.
You both should be open to the reality that the Masorete scribes were correct (knowing that "waw" was a gentile pronunciation) that crept into Hebrew words to the point of being misappropriated as "Ancient Hebrew" of the Tetragrammaton. Instead of dismissing Rabbi James opening post in his thread you might consider that you are opposed to his Jewish understnding.

www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/YHVH/yhvh.html#loaded​

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.

QuoteReply
ReportEditDelete

Upvote0

You have it completely backwards. The vee, (v), comes from Latin and German, and those are the two places where the Jewish diaspora first settled in Europe: first Rome, and we see even Paul writing to the congregation of Jewish believers at Rome even before the dispersion. Many more came after the dispersion, not so much believers in Meshiah but simply fleeing for their lives after the events of 70-135 AD. Then it is likely they were kicked out of Rome, and from there slowly trickled into Germany, which evolved into a large enclave of diaspora Jews. There were actually four or maybe five main cities, no small thing, and this is where the Yiddish language developed and formed in the Jewish communities there.

History of the Jews in Germany - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yiddish - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jews were in Germany long before the Masorete Text was even finalized, (approx. 1000 AD).

 

[daq]

Wrong as it was Jewish Masorete scribes that are credited with "Yahovah" NOT Christian scholars.

PS: By the way, the above quote is yet another false statement. The first vowel in your spelling of "Yahovah" is incorrect according to what is found in the Masoretic Text, for that spelling is found nowhere therein, and moreover neither is it found anywhere in the OP: so apparently you yourself disagree with Rabbi James in this, according to your own supposed house rules for the MJ Board. If you are an impartial judge, using fair scales and balances, should you not now anathematize yourself from this forum?

It appears that you are just making stuff up as you go.

 

[AKAE777]

Wrong as it was Jewish Masorete scribes that are credited with "Yahovah" NOT Christian scholars. Jehovah with J was an English variation ... (same goes for Jesus).

If you are partial to the Catholic faith (see #109) its possible you shouldn't be posting in this MJ forum with the purpose of disagreeing with Rabbi James the OP of this thread.

When you say "Ancient Hebrew" are you not including the Jewish language (YHWH) as influenced by the gentile cultures of the Jewish dispora ...

It should be noted that the "waw" dialect sound is Phoenician (and Syriac waw ܘ and Arabic wāw; whereas "vav" is definitely of Hebrew origin. There is no way of knowing (doubtful) if the "waw" (YHWH) pronounciation was ever used by the high priests before the dispersion of Jews to foreign gentile nations.
Therefore there is no adequte proof that Rabbi James is incorrect (YHVH). You can't prove that the "vav" pronunciation (instead of "waw") wasn't used by the Jewish High Priests before the dispora (beginning in 586 bce)?

daq knows better then to arque/debate Rabbi James (YHVH vs YHWH) and so too should you! Neither daq or you knows how the High Priests pronounced the tetragrammaton before the dispora and the phonetic influence (waw) of gentile cultures.
You both should be open to the reality that the Masorete scribes were correct (knowing that "waw" was a gentile pronunciation) that crept into Hebrew words to the point of being misappropriated as "Ancient Hebrew" of the Tetragrammaton. Instead of dismissing Rabbi James opening post in his thread you might consider that you are opposed to his Jewish understnding.

www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/YHVH/yhvh.html#loaded​

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.

QuoteReply
ReportEditDelete

Upvote0

Medieval Misinterpretation:
Medieval Christian scholars, unfamiliar with this Jewish scribal custom, mistakenly combined the consonants of the Tetragrammaton with the vowel points of "Adonai," creating the form "Yehowah" (or "Jehovah" in English).


If you guys are going to get angry I could go elsewhere.

 

[daq]

If you guys are going to get angry I could go elsewhere.

If you have seen what he is trying to do to me, a Messianic, you can bet he will do the same to you. My friendly advice would be that, indeed, you should read the SOP, (if you haven't already), and do your best to abide by the things contained therein. Some of us try to be lenient to an extent: others not so much.

 

[AKAE777]

If you have seen what he is trying to do to me, a Messianic, you can bet he will do the same to you. My friendly advice would be that, indeed, you should read the SOP, (if you haven't already), and do your best to abide by the things contained therein. Some of us try to be lenient to an extent: others not so much.

I hoped for open dialog. I looked at the rules and think it best if I went elsewhere. Thanks for your advise. Bye.

 

[AbbaLove]

Is it possible that daq thinks he is more in step with MJ (YHWH) than Rabbi James (YHVH)? I'm here to support Rabbi James and his favored use of YHVH (multiple times) in his opening post. daq apprently believes his spelling (YHWH) is more correct being "ancient;" whereas YHVH is considered modern Hebrew. daq faults the Masorete scribes as being inept in substituting "v" for "w"

FWIW ,the "waw" dialect sound is Phoenician (and Syriac waw ܘ and Arabic wāw; whereas the "V" letter "vav" is considered Hebrew origin. There is no way of knowing if the "vav" (YHVH) pronounciation was ever used by the high priests before the dispora or after the rebuilding of the temple wall (Nehemiah). And as far as Moses (beginning with his childhood) he was more fluent in Egyptian than Hebrew. After living 400 years in Egypt the Hebrew language probbly wasn't the same dialect then when they first settled in Goshen including the vocalization of vowel utterances.

Rabbi James is just as correct (YHVH) as daq (YHWH) as it's more a matter of historic perspective ... The Hebrew Name for God - YHVH

The Hebrew language (with its vowel vocalizations) has been influenced so much over the centuries by gentile languages that one can rightly content that there is no such thing as a pure Hebrew language. So whether Yaweh or Yaveh is more in step with Messanic Judaism and Hebrew Roots of Christianity ... Yaweh ahead (IMO)

 

[daq]

Is it possible that daq thinks he is more in step with MJ (YHWH) than Rabbi James (YHVH)? I'm here to support Rabbi James and his favored use of YHVH (multiple times) in his opening post. daq apprently believes his spelling (YHWH) is more correct being "ancient;" whereas YHVH is considered modern Hebrew. daq faults the Masorete scribes as being inept in substituting "v" for "w"

FWIW ,the "waw" dialect sound is Phoenician (and Syriac waw ܘ and Arabic wāw; whereas the "V" letter "vav" is considered Hebrew origin. There is no way of knowing if the "vav" (YHVH) pronounciation was ever used by the high priests before the dispora or after the rebuilding of the temple wall (Nehemiah). And as far as Moses (beginning with his childhood) he was more fluent in Egyptian than Hebrew. After living 400 years in Egypt the Hebrew language probbly wasn't the same dialect then when they first settled in Goshen including the vocalization of vowel utterances.

Rabbi James is just as correct (YHVH) as daq (YHWH) as it's more a matter of historic perspective ... The Hebrew Name for God - YHVH

The Hebrew language (with its vowel vocalizations) has been influenced so much over the centuries by gentile languages that one can rightly content that there is no such thing as a pure Hebrew language. So whether Yaweh or Yaveh is more in step with Messanic Judaism and Hebrew Roots of Christianity ... Yaweh ahead (IMO)

Again, neither of those or any other versions even matter to me: they are strictly transliterations of the Tetragrammaton directly into English, and I do not pronounce either of your current options as the Tetragrammaton or any other versions of the Tetragrammaton with vowels forced into them by men. I have explained this to you multiple times now.

The understanding of the Tetragrammaton is derived from אהיה אשר אהיה. The problem for you is that not even your favorite scholars know how to read it because they have already proclaimed that there is no single-letter particle of existence in Biblical Hebrew, and they are wrong, (and no doubt this also will trigger you, ).

 

[AbbaLove]

Again, neither of those or any other versions even matter to me: they are strictly transliterations of the Tetragrammaton directly into English, and I do not pronounce either of your current options as the Tetragrammaton or any other versions of the Tetragrammaton with vowels forced into them by men. I have explained this to you multiple times now.

If so then why are you so determined/adamant to reject YHVH that Rabbi James included several times in his introductory post; also including the name "YaHoVaH". Why didn't you reply to Rsbbi James if you believe you're so right? As said before my interst in this MJ thread is to support Rabbi James. He serves as an invaluable bridge between any gulf that may exist among Messianics to hopefully claim the waters. For you to refer to Masorete scribes as lacking in the knowledge of the Hebrew languge is presumptive.

When it comes to MJ scholars i prefer Rabbi James to your own scholarly replies. The best Teacher when it comes to understanding, both Hebrew/Jewish Bible, is Ruach HaKodesh as evident in the Brit Chadashah (NT).

Again, neither of those or any other versions even matter to me: they are strictly transliterations of the Tetragrammaton directly into English, and I do not pronounce either of your current options as the Tetragrammaton or any other versions of the Tetragrammaton with vowels forced into them by men. I have explained this to you multiple times now.

As previously posted my replies are meant to support Rabbi James knowing that you would likely post in this thread with the purpose being to oppose Rabbi James' use of YHVH.
Do you think the improper use of "V" in modern Hebrew is too Christian? Is it posible one purpose of this MJ forum is to distinquish between Christianity and Messianic Judaism (if so, so sad) ...

The Hebrew Name for God - YHVH ​

The understanding of the Tetragrammaton is derived from אהיה אשר אהיה. The problem for you is that not even your favorite scholars know how to read it because they have already proclaimed that there is no single-letter particle of existence in. Biblical Hebrew, and they are wrong, (and no doubt this also will trigger you, ).

So you think my support of Rabbi James (YHVH and YaHoVaH necessiates a Big Grin?
So just for you der brother is my trigger ...

LaWe vs LoVe​

For I have not spoken on my own initiative, but the Father who sent Me has given Me a command, namely, what to say and how to say it. (John 1:49)​

I AM giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other. (John 12:49) ​

When i see YHWH it reminds me of the LAW (613 Mitzvot Commandments)
​

When i see YHVH it reminds me of the LOVE of the Father and Son (LORD).

 

[daq]

If so then why are you so determined/adamant to reject YHVH that Rabbi James included several times in his introductory post; also including the name "YaHoVaH".

Again, I do not see that form anywhere in the OP. Why do you keep speaking things that are not true? Why are you putting your words into the mouth of the OP? You are willing to do such a thing just to make me look bad? This has really gotten out of hand.

As previously posted my replies are meant to support Rabbi James knowing that you would likely post in this thread with the purpose being to oppose Rabbi James' use of YHVH.

No, I was dragged here by your own lashon hara against me when I had not even posted in this thread. Go back and look.

Do you think the improper use of "V" in modern Hebrew is too Christian? Is it posible one purpose of this MJ forum is to distinquish between Christianity and Messianic Judaism (if so, so sad) ...

No, I do not think it is Christian at all: I think it is Yiddish just as I already said.
You appear to be grasping for anything that you think might make me look bad.
You are only proving your vendetta which apparently goes all the way back to 2012/13.

So you think my support of Rabbi James (YHVH and YaHoVah) necessiates a Big Grin?
Here is my trigger ...

You are changing his words: go find "YaHoVah" in the OP and post it here if indeed I am mistaken.

When i see YHWH it reminds me of the LAW (613 Mitzvot Commandments).
When i see YHVH it reminds me of the LOVE of the Father and Son (Lord).

If that is how you decide what is right then I now know for sure that this is a waste of my time. I am going to try to bow out now as this has gone way too far off the rails. Please leave me out of your conversations, especially in threads where I have not even responded, (like you did here in Reply #5), especially since you have now admitted that it was nothing more than a bait tactic to try to force me into a dispute with Rabbi James.

 

[AbbaLove]

You are changing his words: go find "YaHoVah" in the OP and post it here if indeed I am mistaken.

Had previously corrected my typo of Rabbi James "YaHoVaH" before you posted. You were too quick with your speedy trigger fingers having replied so quickly before noticing i had already gone back and corrected the typo (YaHoVah) before you posted. Will tell you that your trigger fingers are much faster then mine. See how long it hs taken me to excercise my fingers, proof read, edit and then finally post this reply.

Below is Rabbi James' mention of YaHoVaH in his introductory post.

3:13; when Moses was attending to Jethro's sheep on the back side of Mt. Horeb.

"Thus you are to say to the children of Israel, YHVH Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Yitzchak, the Elohim of Yaakov has sent me to you. "THIS IS MY NAME FOREVER".

Elohim" is the Plural spelling of our ONE GOD (Echad) the Unity of ONE. and then we have the letters YHVH. So how were these letters pronounced? How did Moshe pronounce God's most Holy Name? and Aaron? and the High Priests? No one really knows for sure. How can one pronounce a name with only consonants? Yet from YHVH, translators put it in vowels to arrive at the name "YeHoVaH." in Rome, the "Y" was changed to "J" to make it "JeHoVaH."​

Now you say it isn't all that important (YHVH vs YHWH) realizing that telling me YHVH is incorrect is the same as telling Rabbi James that he is also mistaken.

If you still disagree take it up with Rabbi James. My input has always been to support Rabbi James as a Messianic scholar (YHVH and YaHoVaH) ...

The Hebrew Name for God - YHVH
​

Do you remember several years ago when CF Administration informed MJ members that they were not to post that they were non-trinitarian. It was also at that time that MJ members were told that they are "Christians" and as such are to accept the Nicene Creed as do "Christians"

The Apostles accepted non-Jewish Christians as fellow heirs wirh Messiah Yeshua. A unity of Love was more important than the Law or the letters of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH vs YHWH).

Next time don't be so quick to prove yourself as more of a scholar (YHWH) than another scholar and Rabbi that prefers YHVH ...

www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/YHVH/yhvh.html#loaded​

 

[linux.poet]

AMBASSADOR HAT​

@AKAE777, since you have a Baptist faith label, you are not permitted to debate in the Messianic Judaism subforum:

Congregational Forum Restrictions​

Members who do not truly share the core beliefs and teachings of a specific congregational forum may post in fellowship or ask questions, but they may not teach or debate within the forum.

I understand that you may have found this thread to be very interesting, but please try to be more courteous to our Messianic members by not debating against them in their own safe house. I think you may have figured that out.

Since I'm here, please refrain from calling out in the thread and personally attacking each other, which is barred underneath the flaming section of the rules:

Flaming and Goading​

• Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF, or use nicknames to do so. A list of unacceptable names can be found here.. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.
• "Calling out" a member is an unsolicited comment about another member in reference to something they may have said, their personal beliefs, their signature, or their avatar (challenging the member in a negative manner). This applies to any thread, whether the called out member is participating in that thread or not. Do not quote, or make comments about another member, in your signature or user title.

Some of the posts before this message contain obvious remarks calling out other members for continuing to debate. Further posts in this thread need to be about the debate at hand and address the post and not the poster. Thanks!

AMBASSADOR HAT OFF​