Born Again?

[RandyPNW]

So can a believer choose to sin after Jesus returns and he gets his glorified body?

A believer, once glorified, will never choose to sin. There is a final choice to live for God, and it is for eternity. It's like a fork in the road. You choose one path or the other. Once you go up the right path, that's your choice. It will result in everything you wanted, and you could not irrationally choose to go back to the wrong path because irrationality is not part of the glorified mind.

Free will is forever. But irrationality belongs only to the carnal existence we now live.

 

[Guojing]

A believer, once glorified, will never choose to sin.

So if you hold that view, John was talking about that same view in that verse.

No need to have this "practice sin" vs "occasionally sin" way of trying to make that verse fits us today.

 

[RandyPNW]

So if you hold that view, John was talking about that same view in that verse.

No need to have this "practice sin" vs "occasionally sin" way of trying to make that verse fits us today.

Not at all. John was not talking about being glorified, but rather, about not practicing sin as an indication of who is truly a Christian. That was his initial concern, to show who was really a Christian and who was not.

The mark of a Christian is a consistent walk with the Lord, showing the Lord Himself in our life as our chosen path. False Christians either feign righteousness or do a limited number of charitable works to justify not devoting themselves completely to the Lord.

 

[Guojing]

Not at all. John was not talking about being glorified, but rather, about not practicing sin as an indication of who is truly a Christian. That was his initial concern, to show who was really a Christian and who was not.

The mark of a Christian is a consistent walk with the Lord, showing the Lord Himself in our life as our chosen path. False Christians either feign righteousness or do a limited number of charitable works to justify not devoting themselves completely to the Lord.

What does 1 John 3:9 literally says in the KJV?

 

[RandyPNW]

What does 1 John 3:9 literally says in the KJV?

1 john 3.. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

I don't speak archaic language, so I don't use the KJV. I'll try a newer KJV version....

1 John 3.9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Both versions say the same thing. It would be a complete contradiction for John to say Christians cannot sin. He had already said that Christians who say they don't sin are liars.

So John is talking about the Christian, who is living by the seed, or divine nature within him, to act in a godless way. Obviously, if a Christian does not live by that nature, he certainly can and does sin.

The true Christian has preferred to live by God's nature, whether he succeeds not. John is talking about identifying who is truly living a godly life, by recognizing their pursuit of righteousness.

 

[Guojing]

1 John 3.9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Both versions say the same thing. It would be a complete contradiction for John to say Christians cannot sin. He had already said that Christians who say they don't sin are liars.

But earlier, you already said

A believer, once glorified, will never choose to sin. There is a final choice to live for God, and it is for eternity. It's like a fork in the road. You choose one path or the other. Once you go up the right path, that's your choice. It will result in everything you wanted, and you could not irrationally choose to go back to the wrong path because irrationality is not part of the glorified mind.

Isn't that the same as what 1 John 3:9 is literally saying in the KJV?

I am trying to point out that the idea of "practice sin" is an artificial insertion into this verse, aiming to make this verse relevant to the Body of Christ today.

 

[RandyPNW]

But earlier, you already said...

I will say it again... 1 John 3.9 has absolutely nothing to do with the glorification event, which takes place at Christ's coming

Isn't that the same as what 1 John 3:9 is literally saying in the KJV?.

No, Christians decide to be Christians today, as opposed to the time of Christ's return

I am trying to point out that the idea of "practice sin" is an artificial insertion into this verse, aiming to make this verse relevant to the Body of Christ today.

Adding "practice" to the idea of "rejecting sin" is an explanation, or an elaboration, or a clarification. Translations sometimes require that if in a culture the abbreviated version does not come across well to the reader. Clearly, you are not seeing this and require an "elaboration."

 

[Guojing]

I will say it again... 1 John 3.9 has absolutely nothing to do with the glorification event, which takes place at Christ's coming

And you are 100% sure of that because?

 

[RandyPNW]

And you are 100% sure of that because?

When a man no longer has common sense, no argument will do.

Read the verses. There is nothing there about our future glorification.

1 John 3. See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!

This is speaking of who we are *at present, * and not at our future glorification.

1 John 3.10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

This is speaking of who is living a consistent Christian life *now, * and not in the eternal future.

 

[Guojing]

1 John 3.10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

This is speaking of who is living a consistent Christian life *now, * and not in the eternal future.

Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

You always do what is right *now*?

 

[RandyPNW]

Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

You always do what is right *now*?

In all honesty, you appear to have a language problem. Is English your secondary language? In English, and probably in all languages, generalized statements are made like that. For example, you might characterize someone as "lazy" because of a typical behavior, but not because of a constant behavior. What is really meant is that this person is "often lazy." Inserting the word "often" is not corrupting the statement that "X Person is lazy."

 

[Guojing]

In all honesty, you appear to have a language problem. Is English your secondary language? In English, and probably in all languages, generalized statements are made like that. For example, you might characterize someone as "lazy" because of a typical behavior, but not because of a constant behavior. What is really meant is that this person is "often lazy." Inserting the word "often" is not corrupting the statement that "X Person is lazy."

I didn't realized John was writing English there.

Actually, you could just say "I interpret John as saying X" and everyone would be fine and move on.

But when you use words like "absolutely", it makes it seems as if everyone must interpret John's writing the way you do. Those who do not must necessarily be poor in English or have no common sense.

 

[RandyPNW]

I didn't realized John was writing English there.

Actually, you could just say "I interpret John as saying X" and everyone would be fine and move on.

But when you use words like "absolutely", it makes it seems as if everyone must interpret John's writing the way you do. Those who do not must necessarily be poor in English or have no common sense.

I didn't realized John was writing English there.

Actually, you could just say "I interpret John as saying X" and everyone would be fine and move on.

But when you use words like "absolutely", it makes it seems as if everyone must interpret John's writing the way you do. Those who do not must necessarily be poor in English or have no common sense.

If you think John was writing in English, there is no hope for you! But seriously, I give you more credit than that. I think you know what I meant by using the example, not just in English but in all languages. Generalizations are made. Yes, this is my interpretation. You can believe John is speaking about glorification if you wish.

 

[Jo555]

Evangelicals teach a momentous change from sinner to saint by a formulation called being "Born Again." And this implies for some an immediate change, and for others, a progressive change. In reality I think it is both.

I do think there is an immediate Born Again change when we begin to acknowledge that Christ is our substitute, when we put that reality into motion by accepting God's Word in our lives that enables us to live according to that directive. Just like when our employer tells us to do something he provides the means for us to do it, we can do God's word when He gives us the command to do it.

Even more, when God tells us to completely relinquish final say in our lives, and make God our primary source of authority, we are able to follow that directive and thereby obtain the spiritual means to comply. We become "Born Again."

Some Christians try to dismiss the confusion over formulations of Salvation on the premise that we begin as sinners and end as sinners even after we come under Grace. We are not instantly transformed into saints--we simply become God's People by covenant in the act of acknowledging it and following that directive.

A formula for becoming "Born Again" can become an "oversimplification" of the Salvation formula. We go from sinner to saint only in the sense that 1) we come under covenant with God, 2) we come under grace, and 3) we live by our substitute and not by our carnal being. As such, we are Born Again but not living in righteousness except on the basis of Grace until we obtain glorification.

The way I see it is once we come to believe, by grace through faith, we are given a new nature, born of the Lord's Spirit and where He dwells within. Instead of the heart of flesh, we are given a heart of his Spirit. We are His.

Our experience will line up with our new nature as we walk with Him. As we grow in the revelation of who He is and his great love for us, our mind, will, and emotions will be transformed and we will experience our new lives in Him. It is a work of his Spirit that we cooperate with.

We can quench his work in our lives, but as we submit to Him in faith, denying our old nature, we then are in a position for his Spirit to flow through our new nature / man in Christ.

 

[RandyPNW]

The way I see it is once we come to believe, by grace through faith, we are given a new nature, born of the Lord's Spirit and where He dwells within. Instead of the heart of flesh, we are given a heart of his Spirit. We are His.

Our experience will line up with our new nature as we walk with Him. As we grow in the revelation of who He is and his great love for us, our mind, will, and emotions will be transformed and we will experience our new lives in Him. It is a work of his Spirit that we cooperate with.

We can quench his work in our lives, but as we submit to Him in faith, denying our old nature, we then are in a position for his Spirit to flow through our new nature / man in Christ.

Yes, that's all true. I see an initial experience in which we see God's word as an offer, to replace our carnal ways with God's spiritual ways. Once we make that decision, which is a covenant decision, we embark on a journey of the Spirit, daily choosing to renounce our carnal ways for His spiritual ways, just as we initially promised. In doing so, we mature and grow up into a spiritual adult, though never perfect until our glorification.

So, we are saved and are intended to mature. Rebirth, therefore, is our initial choice to covenant with the Lord, to live for Him. The rebirth, just like natural birth, is intended to continue to grow. But with Salvation, we are not earning our Salvation but continuing in the Salvation we initially chose to grow up and fulfill our calling.

 

[Guojing]

If you think John was writing in English, there is no hope for you!

I was being sarcastic there.

Yes, this is my interpretation. You can believe John is speaking about glorification if you wish.

Finally, you realized its your interpretation.

Alright we can move on now

 

[d taylor]

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Born again, is born again because after our physical birth which comes with a person being born, lacking the life of God (Eternal Life), only possessing physical life.

When a person believes in Jesus.
Which means they come to believe, that believing that Jesus is The only begotten Son of God/The promised Messiah, the resurrection and the life and that this is how they receive God's free gift of Eternal Life (salvation).

Note* knowing something about Jesus is not equal to believing. Many know Jesus is the Son of God, but also they do not believe that is how they receive salvation.

So when a person believes in Jesus, they at the very momnet of belief in Jesus, receive the Life of God. That is they are born again, but this time they are not born physically alive, but spiritually alive. Coming into possession of The Life of God which God gives all believers in Jesus at the very moment of belief in Jesus and are added into the book of life.

 

[Jo555]

Yes, that's all true. I see an initial experience in which we see God's word as an offer, to replace our carnal ways with God's spiritual ways. Once we make that decision, which is a covenant decision, we embark on a journey of the Spirit, daily choosing to renounce our carnal ways for His spiritual ways, just as we initially promised. In doing so, we mature and grow up into a spiritual adult, though never perfect until our glorification.

So, we are saved and are intended to mature. Rebirth, therefore, is our initial choice to covenant with the Lord, to live for Him. The rebirth, just like natural birth, is intended to continue to grow. But with Salvation, we are not earning our Salvation but continuing in the Salvation we initially chose to grow up and fulfill our calling.

Think we are seeing the same, but possibly except in one area that may just be more in choice of words.

I don't really see it as a choice, but an act of faith.

The old covenant was a choice, and one they could not keep. The new covenant is based on the Spirit at work and an act of faith.

Jeremiah 31
Hebrews 10

 

[Dan Perez]

What does 1 John 3:9 literally says in the KJV?

And here is what 1 John 3:9 is saying !!

He DOTH // POIEO , is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , means it is and act of God and in the INDICATIVE

MOOD , which means you better believe it and in the Greek SINGULAR , meaning only one time !

NOT // is DISJUNCATIVE PRTICLE NEGATIVE , meaning no one can never SIN !!

COMMIT SIN // HAMARTIA , in the ACCUSATIVE CASE , Meaning he is LIMITIDED and it in the Greek SINGULAR !!

No one has ever seen it yet , because it will happen during the GREAT TRIBULATION !!

No one is BORN of God and no one is BORN AGAIN and those BORN AGAIN is Israel , and check EZE 37 until

Israel and Judah again become ONE NATION again ,as they are 2 sticks and WILL AGAIN BECOME , LNE STICK !!

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

I was being sarcastic there.

I know. Didn't you see my smiley face?

Finally, you realized its your interpretation.

Alright we can move on now

You're pretending I don't already know my views are my "interpretation." I've not said otherwise. Your views are equally your interpretation. So where does that get us? It's a matter of considering the evidence--not arguing over words like "interpretation."