Trump, Vance and Zelenskyy spar over Russian war in tense exchange at White House

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

But you can certainly tell us how the Russians win.

I am still pondering why Trump and Vance set him up and pounced on him that way...making him the enemy.
And now you follow along also.

I remember the day when anything pro Russia was viewed as communism. We had some dark days here in America over that.

Now because of Trump Russia is our friend and our former allies are not so much any more and being even more distanced.

Is that making America great? I don't think so..

I think Russia wins because they are continuously pushing westward, have larger manpower pools and a military industry that can support the front. It isn't Russia that is rationing ammunition, having to resort to press gangs or lowering the conscription age in this war, It's Ukraine. I think it's magical thinking to say that Ukraine can win this, win this being Putin in prison, all the Donbass and Crimea taken and Ukraine has a total victory.

Now, can you lay out how Ukraine wins? Can anyone on the pro-war side do this? Can they admit what the cost of such a victory is?

 

[chevyontheriver]

But you can certainly tell us how the Russians win.

I don't actually think the Russians are guaranteed a win. If I were them I'd agree to a retreat. Ukraine loses but that doesn't mean Russia wins. I think they both could lose.

Ukraine loses but RussiI am still pondering why Trump and Vance set him up and pounced on him that way...making him the enemy.
And now you follow along also.

It's a bit soon to know how this shakes out. It was quite bold of Trump and Vance. We don't know yet if there is another shoe to drop with a similar message for Putin.

I remember the day when anything pro Russia was viewed as communism. We had some dark days here in America over that.

Now because of Trump Russia is our friend and our former allies are not so much any more and being even more distanced.

Is that making America great? I don't think so..

Russia is not our friend. Trump has not made it so. He HAS told the known corrupt Zelenskyy where he can get off. It's a whole new game right now. It might work out well. Most anything is better than what has been going on up until today.

 

[Michie]

Ukraine ambassador's reaction to fiery Trump-Zelenskyy Oval Office clash goes viral

A video of Ukrainian Ambassador Oksana Markarova's reaction to Friday's heated exchange between President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Zelenskyy at the White House went viral.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Absolutely disgraceful and shameful.

Trump and Vance absolutely devoid of class, tact and statesmanship. Their ego wasn’t being stroked enough and the inane ramblings started.

I’m glad Zelensky walked away. This was never about peace for Trump, it was holding a gun in one hand and a life jacket in the other.

JD Vance and Trump both thought it was a good idea to keep the film a rolling because they thought it would make Zelensky look worse to the American people. I have news for Mr. Trump, he was the one who looked bad. Yes, I say he looked like a bully who was running a cheesy TV show called, um, let's see - The Apprentice (You're fired!!!).

JD Vance is over there yelling, "You should be more appreciative for America's help." Sad, very sad to watch Trump/Vance beat up on a guy whose people are being killed by a foreign power that invaded their country. Yah, I like alot of Trump/Vance policies but their communication skills are alot to be desired.

 

[Richard T]

Can Ukraine make it's own decisions or can only the leaders of Ukraine make that decision? You seem to think every Ukrainian is willing to fight a total death war, yet men are press ganged into service and significant amounts of women and men have fled the country. I don't know what the willingness of Ukraine to fight is, but given that the Neocons and US politicians were trying to push Ukraine to conscript 18 year old's, it kind of shows me that not everyone is as eager as you seem to suggest. In fact, why if Ukraine is willing to fight, does it need to conscript at all? Wouldn't Ukrainian men be willing to volunteer if the war was popular?

Russia is not accepting the Idea of European troops in Ukraine at all and they will not send any troops until their is a ceasefire which Russia is also rejecting. If the Europeans want to negotiate, nothing is stopping them, nothing is stopping Ukraine either except itself (since it is illegal for Z to talk to Putin or come to terms with him).

There is no doubt Ukraine is running out of manpower. Russia also to an extent. That Russia had to pull out of Syria shows Russia is spread thin. as well. I agree too that there are some people in every war that choose themselves over their nation's conflict.
So as to who makes the decisions? Ukraine's leaders have to do this. Certainly some Ukrainians oppose war. I don't know how unified Ukraine is on this. Few nations have national unity on many issues.
I might say it is a good thing that the USA is out of this. However, Russia will use this to drive a wedge between the USA and the EU. Putin might even test USA resolve to defend a NATO country if the EU does step up and provide more support. Ukraine supporters too might create a flashpoint in a neighboring nation to pull in NATO.
I probably would suggest just letting the status quo continue as it seems far less risky. Fund Ukraine at the level Congress wants and let the EU take the lead without any show of frustration. That would put more pressure on Russia and Ukraine to make a fair deal. We have to think that if Russia does get a nice piece of Ukraine, it sets them up for a later war. In some ways it is like Biden sending a pallet of cash to Iran. It keeps them happy for a time but it sets them up for something bigger later. Similarly, Trump is willing to send a lot of land and resources to Russia at mostly Ukraine's expense.
The good news is that God has this. Nations are positioning for the end times. What we do may not really matter that much because God's providence has already determined so much.

 

[sanderabeer]

JD Vance and Trump both thought it was a good idea to keep the film a rolling because they thought it would make Zelensky look worse to the American people. I have news for Mr. Trump, he was the one who looked bad.

Yes, definitely. I was particularly surprised by Trump taking offense to Zelensky pointing out that we'll feel the effects of Russia's actions. Why was that offensive? There will be impacts felt in the US if Ukraine wins, if Russia wins, if a stalemate develops. It might be changes in cybersecurity, or oil and gas prices, or diplomatic ties, or whatever. But it seems so utterly out there to get offended by Zelensky's completely sensible point.

Trump taking offense to that makes me wonder what's going on behind the scenes. What are we not seeing?

 

[FenderTL5]

Can anyone on the pro-war side do this?

Since when has insisting the aggressor stop aggressing pro-war?
Russia initiated the war, to kowtow to Russia's terms based on their aggression encourages more aggressivness . That's pro-war.
Russia needs stop their invasion (that'd be peaceful) go back home (also peaceful) and pay for their aggression by funding the rebuild of the Ukraine they demolished.
I sincerely have no idea how you can try to spin Russia invading another country as the peaceful side, that notion is asinine.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Since when has insisting the aggressor stop aggressing pro-war?
Russia initiated the war, to kowtow to Russia's terms based on their aggression encourages more aggressivness . That's pro-war.
Russia needs stop their invasion (that'd be peaceful) go back home (also peaceful) and pay for their aggression by funding the rebuild of the Ukraine they demolished.
I sincerely have no idea how you can try to spin Russia invading another country as the peaceful side, that notion is asinine.

Right. Calling the sacrifices defending ones people "pro war" pro Russia spin.

On 24 February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine.
It was the largest and deadliest conflict in Europe since World War II.
Hundreds of thousands of military casualties and tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilian casualties.

"Pro war" are those who initiate war. Let's be clear about that.


Now, just how to end it is another question. Terms for peace will require delicate skilled diplomacy. The U.S. obviously does not have it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If you are in favour of the war continuing (let's concede the morality of it for now), then you are by definition pro war. You are willing to see the lives of people expended in order to prosecute a morally righteous crusade against Russia for democracy and liberty, right? Well, if you are proud of this, why can't you admit the cost? How many millions need to die in order for Zelensky's 2022 peace plan to be accomplished? You want the good guys to win right? Regardless of the cost right?

Is anybody thinking of this in regards to just war theory? I’m not seeing it. What is the just war endgame? Given exactly what we have right now?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Yes, definitely. I was particularly surprised by Trump taking offense to Zelensky pointing out that we'll feel the effects of Russia's actions. Why was that offensive? There will be impacts felt in the US if Ukraine wins, if Russia wins, if a stalemate develops. It might be changes in cybersecurity, or oil and gas prices, or diplomatic ties, or whatever. But it seems so utterly out there to get offended by Zelensky's completely sensible point.

Trump taking offense to that makes me wonder what's going on behind the scenes. What are we not seeing?

What are we not seeing? That’s the real question.

 

[Laodicean60]

However, Russia will use this to drive a wedge between the USA and the EU.

Nope, there is already a wedge between the EU and both Trump administrations.

Putin might even test USA resolve to defend a NATO country if the EU does step up and provide more support. Ukraine supporters too might create a flashpoint in a neighboring nation to pull in NATO.

Do you think Putin's military is capable of doing this? Another thing that "might" happen is nuclear war if this continues, and like Trump, when that happens, it won't be good for anyone.

All in all, Zelenskyy has two options: make peace or lose US funding.

The good news is that God has this. Nations are positioning for the end times. What we do may not really matter that much because God's providence has already determined so much.

Amen!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Maybe a short review would be helpful.

After the dissolution of the Soviet Union in December 1991, the newly-independent Russian Federation and Ukraine maintained cordial relations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#:~:text=On%2024%20February%202022%2C%20Russia,thousands%20of%20Ukrainian%20civilian%20casualties.

Dissolution of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War#Further_reading

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Trump and Vance were right! Zelensky has no place telling the president and VP how Americans must feel
about Ukraine. Also, Trump told Zelensky the reality in that he has no leverage to negotiate anything with
Putin other than for peace.

We're not going to escalate the war in Ukraine to WWIII.

Zelensky demonstrates bogus patriotism while sacrificing his own country and people.
He was used to dealing with Biden who gave him over $300 billion in cash and weapons.
Now Zelensky has to deal with Trump who got a peace negotiation from the Russians, but
Zelensky threw it back in Trump's face in front of the media that was there.

BTW, Americans need to learn about the conflict Russia and Ukraine have had over the years.
Not much complaining about Obama when he let Putin take Crimea, and he was right.
The majority of Crimeans are Russian and want to be aligned with Russia. No point
going to war over that area. The situation there is complex, but nothing in line with
the US version of democracy.

Also, the rebel groups in Ukraine well before Putin invaded, some were pro-Russian and some
were fascist rebel groups seeking to over-throw the Ukraine government. Those fascist rebel
groups sided with the Ukraine government after Putin invaded and have been fighting the
Russians.

2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Valletta]

Now, just how to end it is another question. Terms for peace will require delicate skilled diplomacy. The U.S. obviously does not have it.

No one in the world has been able to establish peace between the two countries. Not Joe Biden, not Kamala Harris, not any of Joe's ambassadors, not any billionaire or EU country leaders or any world leader. Trump has been president now for a little over a month and already Hamas has released hostages. Instead of criticizing, those who want peace should stop the criticism and support Trump's efforts. Zelensky has to be willing to go for a cease fire. Obviously he was not yet ready. Trump only then had one option for success, to put in the mind of Zelensky the possibility the U.S. might stop funding him. I think Zelensky will be back.

 

[Valletta]

Maybe a short review would be helpful.

After the dissolution of the Soviet Union in December 1991, the newly-independent Russian Federation and Ukraine maintained cordial relations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#:~:text=On%2024%20February%202022%2C%20Russia,thousands%20of%20Ukrainian%20civilian%20casualties.

Dissolution of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War#Further_reading

Unfortunately the U.S. left refused to link aid to the Soviet Union to them destroying their nuclear arsenal and the world is dealing with Putin today because of it. Many here on the left idolized the brutal communist regime:

'Gorby! Gorby!' Chant His Fans in Minneapolis

On a cold, dreary Sunday, the leader of the Soviet Union flew to the Great Plains for the sort of warm, hearty welcome that he no longer gets at home.

www.latimes.com

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JD Vance and Trump both thought it was a good idea to keep the film a rolling because they thought it would make Zelensky look worse to the American people. I have news for Mr. Trump, he was the one who looked bad. Yes, I say he looked like a bully who was running a cheesy TV show called, um, let's see - The Apprentice (You're fired!!!).

JD Vance is over there yelling, "You should be more appreciative for America's help." Sad, very sad to watch Trump/Vance beat up on a guy whose people are being killed by a foreign power that invaded their country. Yah, I like alot of Trump/Vance policies but their communication skills are alot to be desired.

I don't think Trump looked bad at all. He was honest with Zelensky and it was Zelensky who began yelling at Trump and Vance.

 

[Laodicean60]

Yes, definitely. I was particularly surprised by Trump taking offense to Zelensky pointing out that we'll feel the effects of Russia's actions. Why was that offensive?

It was a threatening statement. I was offended when I heard it, but Vance could have kept his mouth shut. One thing that caught my ear as part of the security guarantee is that an American would be working over there.

if a stalemate develops

This war has been in a stalemate for two years; it has been a slow meat grinder of a war of attrition. Has anyone forgotten that Ukraine is having a hard time fielding troops?

 

[ozso]

Trump has not acted that way towards any other of the many oval office visitors he's had. So obviously Zelenskyy provoked it.

 

[ozso]

Yes, definitely. I was particularly surprised by Trump taking offense to Zelensky pointing out that we'll feel the effects of Russia's actions. Why was that offensive? There will be impacts felt in the US if Ukraine wins, if Russia wins, if a stalemate develops. It might be changes in cybersecurity, or oil and gas prices, or diplomatic ties, or whatever. But it seems so utterly out there to get offended by Zelensky's completely sensible point.

Trump taking offense to that makes me wonder what's going on behind the scenes. What are we not seeing?

It came off as Zelenskyy foreboding negative effects from Russia if the US doesn't play ball the way he wants. Basically "you'll be sorry you if don’t cooperate with me".

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Trump and Vance were right! Zelensky has no place telling the president and VP how Americans must feel
about Ukraine.

That is such an overblown item. All he said was, ""During the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have a nice ocean and don't feel [it] now, but you will feel it in the future." And it was like a fuse was lite and nothing good came after that. Trump kept repeating himself. "
"Don't tell us what we're going to feel. You're in no position to dictate that," he said, his voice getting louder. "You don't have the cards right now," he told him. "You're gambling with millions of lives."

And on and on. It was like listening to dad and brother going no where but deeper into darkness.