The jews

[2PhiloVoid]

Some terrible things have happened to the Jews over the centuries... Ones in living memory include the Holocaust during WW2 and the attacks last year. I remember learning about Anne Francs diaries when I was is school. Awful times.

But according to Christianity, most of those tortured and murdered Jews are roasting in hell as they don't have the necessary faith in Christ's sacrifice..

Isn't this simply unfair and unjust? Is this the best God could come up with?

One might try to understand the same question from WITHIN the frame(s) of Jewish Theologies before asking the Christian the same question. See what you come up with as an answer from those who are religiously Jewish themselves.

In this proper orientation of study, we should ask: What about "poor ol'" ACHAN and his family? What about nearly half the Hebrews/Israelites who were slain by Moses immediately after coming out of Egypt in the Exodus?

You sort of need to field these questions as necessary priors before asking the Christian to further weigh in on the topic of "Gehenna."

You also need to justify your view on morality and ethics in order to then begin to question either the Jewish or Christian view of God's Sovereignty and Holiness.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

One might try to understand the same question from WITHIN the frame(s) of Jewish Theologies before asking the Christian the same question. See what you come up with as an answer from those who are religiously Jewish themselves.

In this proper orientation of study, we should ask: What about "poor ol'" ACHAN and his family? What about nearly half the Hebrews/Israelites who were slain by Moses immediately after coming out of Egypt in the Exodus?

You sort of need to field these questions as necessary priors before asking the Christian to further weigh in on the topic of "Gehenna."

You also need to justify your view on morality and ethics in order to then begin to question either the Jewish or Christian view of God's Sovereignty and Holiness.

I think morality can see derived straight from experience. If I cut my hand... I don't like it, it hurts. Humans have developed/evolved to bond and care about each other. In fact, we can't survive without each other... without bonding and caring about each other.
So it is necessary to protect others from harm and hurt.. we have developed a form of imagination called empathy to support that. We understand what is bad and hurtful from our own experiences and from hearing about others experiences.
That is enough to develop a functional morality.
Indeed even Jesus was able to reduce his mortality to something similar. Love your neighbour as yourself. Love being the opposite of hurting and harming. Rather, caring, healing, helping.
The essential core of morality can be found with this... the empathic understanding of both physical and psychological pain.... No devine revelation is required.

 

[Clare73]

Some terrible things have happened to the Jews over the centuries... Ones in living memory include the Holocaust during WW2 and the attacks last year. I remember learning about Anne Francs diaries when I was is school. Awful times.

But according to Christianity, most of those tortured and murdered Jews are roasting in hell as they don't have the necessary faith in Christ's sacrifice..

Isn't this simply unfair and unjust? Is this the best God could come up with?

Reality 101:

He's God. . .you're not.

You don't judge God, he judges you.

He's the potter, you're the clay.
Shall the clay say to the potter, "Why have you made me thus?"

What foolishness from the impotent!!!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think morality can see derived straight from experience. If I cut my hand... I don't like it, it hurts. Humans have developed/evolved to bond and care about each other. In fact, we can't survive without each other... without bonding and caring about each other.
So it is necessary to protect others from harm and hurt.. we have developed a form of imagination called empathy to support that. We understand what is bad and hurtful from our own experiences and from hearing about others experiences.
That is enough to develop a functional morality.
Indeed even Jesus was able to reduce his mortality to something similar. Love your neighbour as yourself. Love being the opposite of hurting and harming. Rather, caring, healing, helping.
The essential core of morality can be found with this... the empathic understanding of both physical and psychological pain.... No devine revelation is required.

Will be you testing/challenging your own predicates and propositions which serve as the central core of your personal view on morality and ethics?

What you have said so far is a good starting point, I agree, but it's not an end point for arriving at a well thought out, robust Ethic by which to make moral decisions in life, or by which to discern and judge Jesus Christ if He is indeed Lord and Messiah of the world.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Reality 101:

He's God. . .you're not.

You don't judge God, he judges you.

He's the potter, you're the clay.
Shall the clay say to the potter, "Why have you made me thus?"

What foolishness from the impotent!!!

Not being a Christian, I am not compelled to accept that.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Will be you testing/challenging your own predicates and propositions which serve as the central core of your personal view on morality and ethics?

What you have said so far is a good starting point, I agree, but it's not an end point for arriving at a well thought out, robust Ethic by which to make moral decisions in life, or by which to discern and judge Jesus Christ if He is indeed Lord and Messiah of the world.

It seems to start and end pretty well to me... If the end point of Christianity is that billions of people are tortured in hell without end.. even the innocent victims of murder... then I think it has failed ethically.. Even if some are saved, it has failed.

Jesus was unequivocal, the ONLY way to the father is through him. That is morally bankrupt right there.. why paint it on the side of churches.. it's a horrific moral failure.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It seems to start and end pretty well to me... If the end point of Christianity is that billions of people are tortured in hell without end.. even the innocent victims of murder... then I think it has failed ethically.. Even if some are saved, it has failed.

Even if the end point of Christianity is that billions of people end up in a literally eternal "Gehenna / Lake of Fire," if God is who the Jews say He is, then He'd be justified doing with His creation as He deems is just.

(As a side note, I lean toward "Annihilationism" rather than the most oft cited interpretation of the "Lake of Fire." But I'm not allowed to say more than that here.)

Jesus was unequivocal, the ONLY way to the father is through him. That is morally bankrupt right there.. why paint it on the side of churches.. it's a horrific moral failure.

In the same way that there is more than one or two interpretive positions on the 'Nature of Hell' among Christian Theologians, there are is also more than one or two interpretive positions on the question, "What happens to those who've never heard of Jesus?"

And please forgive me if I say that from my study of Ethics, I think it's a bridge too far to assert that any of us can know with certainty it's morally bankrupt for Jesus to be "the ONLY way to the Father." That assertion falters on more than simply one or two grounds. But I understand the emotions involved with believing that position since, usually, we have loved ones whom we desperately care for and would hate to think they'd not make it into Eternal Life with Christ. That is an extremely hard notion and bitter pill to swallow.

 

[Clare73]

Not being a Christian, I am not compelled to accept that.

Like you're not compelled to accept gravity?

Heads up . .maybe not now. . .but it's just a matter of time.

Make it easier on yourself.

 

[jas3]

Jesus was unequivocal, the ONLY way to the father is through him. That is morally bankrupt right there.. why paint it on the side of churches.. it's a horrific moral failure.

If you're not willing to explain your system of morality beyond "if it feels good, it's good" or question whether your basis for ethics is insufficient, then you don't really have room to criticize anyone else as being immoral.

Also, keep in mind that while this is a part of the forum where you as a non-christian are allowed to ask questions of Christians, you are still not allowed to make insults about the Christian God.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

If you're not willing to explain your system of morality beyond "if it feels good, it's good" or question whether your basis for ethics is insufficient, then you don't really have room to criticize anyone else as being immoral.

Also, keep in mind that while this is a part of the forum where you as a non-christian are allowed to ask questions of Christians, you are still not allowed to make insults about the Christian God.

I'm not insulting your God, I'm just saying how he looks to outsiders. If you want to demonstrate how a morality based on not harming others is insufficient, then please do do

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Like you're not compelled to accept gravity?

Heads up . .maybe not now. . .but it's just a matter of time.

Make it easier on yourself.

Gravity is a demonstrable fact.. it must be accepted. Clearly your belief is based on faith, not scientific fact.
That's not to say that therefore it's not true.. but it's not something that I'm compelled by experience to accept... it is something that is accepted through faith... or not accepted. I don't find it compelling and I'm not bound by it.

 

[Lukaris]

The thing is no one is automatically going to hell but without an assurance of salvation by grace, all a person has is their works. There is no assurance of salvation ( Hebrews 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) without knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior ( Ephesians 2:8-10). It is possible that God will save those He, and only He knows who have lived as He wants us to ( Ezekiel 18:4-9, all of Ezekiel 18:1-32 to be thorough).

 

[jas3]

I'm not insulting your God, I'm just saying how he looks to outsiders.

Big "people hate me because I tell it how it is" energy. Your religion looks like a vain attempt to be "spiritual, not religious" with a hint of orientalism, but it's insulting to tell you that your religion is a sham and probably not actual Buddhism, so in the interest of civil conversation, most people won't point that out.

If you want to demonstrate how a mortality based on not harming others is insufficient, then please do do

Your stated basis of morality is "if I cut my hand it hurts, I don't like it."

Exercise, work, and study are also unpleasant in the moment, but they aren't immoral or even actually bad. Similarly, justice is unpleasant to a criminal, but that doesn't mean it's immoral. Seriously, this is like the first naive ethical system dismissed in an ethics 101 class.

 

[Clare73]

Gravity is a demonstrable fact.. it must be accepted. Clearly your belief is based on faith, not scientific fact.
That's not to say that therefore it's not true.. but it's not something that I'm compelled by experience to accept... it is something that is accepted through faith... or not accepted. I don't find it compelling and I'm not bound by it.

Your religion is a matter of material science, mine is a matter of spiritual revelation of the God of the OT Jews and NT Christians.

Your material religion, which acknowledges only one sphere of reality, has no basis by which to judge my spiritual religion, while my spiritual religion which acknowledges both the material and the spiritual spheres does have a basis for judging your material religion.

 

[Clare73]

The thing is no one is automatically going to hell but without an assurance of salvation by grace, all a person has is their works. There is no assurance of salvation ( Hebrews 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) without knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior ( Ephesians 2:8-10). It is possible that God will save those He, and only He knows who have lived as He wants us to ( Ezekiel 18:4-9, all of Ezekiel 18:1-32 to be thorough).

Keeping in mind, it's not about good living, it's about believing in and trusting on the only one who can save, which "good living" that faith will then follow.
Faith is the determiner, not good living.

 

[Lukaris]

Keeping in mind, it's not about good living, it's about believing in and trusting on the only one who can save, which "good living" that faith will then follow.
Faith is the determiner, not good living.

I know but there is a chance God will be merciful as He judges ( Romans 9:14-18, Matthew 12:31-33 etc.). The Lord prayed for His executioners ( Luke 23:34) prayer for others seems much easier like in the Lord’s Prayer ( Matthew 6:9-13).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not being a Christian, I am not compelled to accept that.

You don't need to be a Christian to follow the logic. If God is not simply another resident within reality, like us and angels and other gods, he is only 'a god', and not the Self-Existent Creator.

 

[timewerx]

Some terrible things have happened to the Jews over the centuries... Ones in living memory include the Holocaust during WW2 and the attacks last year. I remember learning about Anne Francs diaries when I was is school. Awful times.

But according to Christianity, most of those tortured and murdered Jews are roasting in hell as they don't have the necessary faith in Christ's sacrifice..

Isn't this simply unfair and unjust? Is this the best God could come up with?

God/Jesus also promised terrible consequences to the Jews if they continue to do evil and die in their sins. Evil will never go unpunished.

The Jews or more accurately, the Judaists (from the religion Judaism) don't regard Jesus as we Christians do. The most likely references to Jesus in their Talmud is horrific. It also teaches exploiting and deceiving non-Jews or Gentiles.

I'm not making this up, Jesus described the Pharisees as liars and murderers (John chapter 8).

Judaists = Pharisees. Same religion, same scriptures (Babylonian Talmud). Study your history.

Come to think of it, the Muslims are also suffering horrifically because their religion just like Pharisee also teaches hate (opposite of loving). Pharisee and Islam are both hateful religions. Ironically, Pharisee is more insidious because deception is emphasized (the wolf in sheep's clothing).

The Jews has been relatively fortunate since the Holocaust. They enjoyed material prosperity since. Only suffering minor setbacks in recent Hamas attacks and then LA fires / natural calamities, etc.

 

[Clare73]

I know but there is a chance God will be merciful as He judges ( Romans 9:14-18, Matthew 12:31-33 etc.). The Lord prayed for His executioners ( Luke 23:34) prayer for others seems much easier like in the Lord’s Prayer ( Matthew 6:9-13).

And then there is the Lord in Jn 3:18.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Jesus himself declared he is the ONLY way to heaven. The ramifications of that are profound, and Christians should big-up and stand by what their religion declares.