Atheists are Right. Why Dispute the Truth?

[Jo555]

Now that is an attention grabber, isn't it?

But hear me out before burning me at the stake.

I'm speaking of matters of morality and ethics (for those that understand it correctly).

Ethics and morality are faculties of the fallen human nature. It is based on partaking of the knowledge of good and evil. Basically, it is a false belief that we can be like God apart from God.

When they say that our knowledge of good and evil shapes our conscience, they are right.

When they say the moral code we live by is a product of what we have been taught, of which can influence our desires and choices, they are right.

When they say that our awful feelings about ourselves are shaped by that moral code, they are right.

When they say that these moral codes have contributed to a good deal of the world's problems, they are right.

The holy scriptures teach this. Why dispute the truth?


Genesis 2:
17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.”

Partaking of the knowledge of good and evil has always been forbidden fruit for in doing so we are declaring our independence from God, which is death, and reaps the fruits therein: envy, strife, hatred, bitterness, etc.

Remember, God only brought in the law to work with man's choice of going at it without him, but this was not his choice for us. Unfortunately, we ate of the wrong tree. Even so, not like He didn't know it would occur due to the insufficiency of our human nature, but He has a plan. He would turn it around for his ultimate, good purpose, bringing many sons and daughters into his Kingdom through Christ.

It was always in his plan to make us like Him, but that is impossible apart from Him.

Not that we are the Almighy, who is the source, but as children emboddied by his Spirit and totally reliant on Him to get us there.

Romans 8:
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

To judge God for creating us as He did is what the Apostle Paul in Romans calls just a human point of view.

It was never God's design to have us living by morality and ethical codes. These are faculties of the fallen human nature and declares our independence from God. It is partaking of the knowledge of good and evil which is forbidden fruit.

As already mentioned, partaking of the knowledge of good and evil will only lead to death. If we want to enter into our inheritance of being like God, we must enter in through Christ and be led by his Spirit. We won't arrive fully on our own, but as we come together in Him.

The believer's life is one lived by the Spirit of God indwelling our spirits and leading us by his love. This is not a moral or ethical code, but a Spiritual force. And, it is the only force that can successfully overcome our carnal nature (fallen human nature).

If we are to shine bright for the Lord so we can be distinguished from the ways of the world, we must heed the first commandment,

"Do not partake of the knowledge of good and evil for when you do, you will surely die."

Believers now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to drive us by his love unto obedience.

So again, why dispute with an atheist on the matter. On matters of morality, they are right (those that have that concept right). You can even agree that yes, it has made a mess of things, but that is not God's design for us and how we are to live our lives. It came from choosing to go at life apart from God in order to be our own gods, and it is forbidden fruit. We are to live from that higher and brighter dimension of being like God found in Christ.

The darkened mind will look to blame God, whether they believe He exists or whether they believe He is made up.

But we are not of the same spirit of the world so let us stop acting like the world and walk in our Lord's light. Let us stop partaking of the knowledge of good and evil and instead be led by his Spirit of love and truth.


Further Reading: Hebrews 2

 

[Jo555]

I should have mentioned, it is not that of itself knowledge is bad. Knowledge is just a branch. It is in the partaking.

In other words, living our lives out of the knowledge of good and evil is the problem and results in death instead of life.

 

[Laodicean60]

So again, why dispute with an atheist on the matter. On matters of morality, they are right (those that have that concept right). You can even agree that yes, it has made a mess of things, but that is not God's design for us and how we are to live our lives. It came from choosing to go at life apart from God in order to be our own gods, and it is forbidden fruit. We are to live from that higher and brighter dimension of being like God found in Christ.

I guess we Christians also like to use virtue signals (morality and sin) to atheists. Maybe that's why atheists like to throw anything a Christian does wrong back in our faces in these forums and elsewhere to show us we aren't as good as we portray ourselves.

 

[Jo555]

I guess we Christians also like to use virtue signals (morality and sin) to atheists. Maybe that's why atheists like to throw anything a Christian does wrong back in our faces in these forums and elsewhere to show us we aren't as good as we portray ourselves.

It's human nature to be critical. Even so, if we are proclaiming to know the way, the truth, and life, there will be those looking at our works to see evidence of that.

I think where many of us misstep is that we are trying to be good through morality and ethics instead of walking in the Spirit where his love produces good works.

As I like to say to my mom whom is always telling me how good I am. I say, "Mom, of myself I'm not good, but I really love you and that love causes me to be good to you."

That said, I think many of them appear to see us as unintelligent, ignorant fools that are clueless as to the basic theories of humanity and what makes them tick.

 

[Jo555]

It's human nature to be critical. Even so, if we are proclaiming to know the way, the truth, and life, there will be those looking at our works to see evidence of that.

I think where many of us misstep is that we are trying to be good through morality and ethics instead of walking in the Spirit where his love produces good works.

As I like to say to my mom whom is always telling me how good I am. I say, "Mom, of myself I'm not good, but I really love you and that love causes me to be good to you."

That said, I think many of them appear to see us as unintelligent, ignorant fools that are clueless as to the basic theories of humanity and what makes them tick.

Sorry, accidentally submitted too soon.
To continue ...

and of course Christians value the wisdom of God, which scripture tells us is foolishness to man, over the wisdom of the world. 1 Cor 3.

Therefore we see them in the dark and ignorant. We know the wisdom of God surpasses any human attributes.

But I don't doubt there are those that are well intended in their humanity. They want to save us from the foolishness of our ways, as they see it, and we want to save them from theirs.

I really do believe the Lord has been speaking to me for some time now that many of his people are in similar condition as the world, in that shadowy darkness that comes from partaking of the knowledge of good and evil instead of the revelation from his Spirit, who reveals Christ to us, and drives us by his Love (walking in his Spirit).

 

[Jo555]

Therefore, I don't see any point in disputing on the basis of morality. Morality is a faculty of the fallen human nature and believers are born of the Spirit. It's like comparing the moon to the Sun. It isn't the same.

That doesn't mean there aren't things we can't take away from morality and ethics for we did partake of the knowledge of good and evil and we are still growing and learning to move away from that, into walking in his Spirit. We can understand how morality works and when we do we can see scriptures come to life regarding the error of trusting in human nature over the Spirit of God, and who knows how God can use us to reveal Himself to another when discussing these things. Just saying, to dispute a case for the Lord on the basis of morality, I don't see the point, except on agreeing with the limitations of it, and the messes that can be made by acting under the wrong belief system.

And that, by far, is not limited to religion. The world has had more than its share too.

Woosh, think I'm done, at least for now. We could write a book on this.

 

[com7fy8]

If we are to shine bright for the Lord so we can be distinguished from the ways of the world, we must heed the first commandment,

"Do not partake of the knowledge of good and evil for when you do, you will surely die."

Believers now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to drive us by his love unto obedience.

He did not say not to know about good and evil. He said not to eat from that tree. The problem was the spirit of disobedience which had them doing it. And then that evil spirit of Satan messed them up so they misunderstood good and evil.

But God says, they became like God to know good and evil. So, this would mean God knows good and evil. And God is not dead. So, I offer their real problem was they acted in the disobedient spirit which made them love-dead >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 2:2)

And we in Jesus do have our various moral rules.

Forgive, and do not be unforgiving.

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14)

Therefore, complaining and arguing are morally wrong.

And there are plenty more. But these have to do with changing to be and to love like Jesus. They are not just do's and don'ts, but guides about what is not done in the Holy Spirit and therefore do not do them.

 

[Jo555]

He did not say not to know about good and evil. He said not to eat from that tree. The problem was the spirit of disobedience which had them doing it. And then that evil spirit of Satan messed them up so they misunderstood good and evil.

But God says, they became like God to know good and evil. So, this would mean God knows good and evil. And God is not dead. So, I offer their real problem was they acted in the disobedient spirit which made them love-dead >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 2:2)

And we in Jesus do have our various moral rules.

Forgive, and do not be unforgiving.

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14)

Therefore, complaining and arguing are morally wrong.

And there are plenty more. But these have to do with changing to be and to love like Jesus. They are not just do's and don'ts, but guides about what is not done in the Holy Spirit and therefore do not do them.

Yes, partaking of the knowledge of good and evil is not condemning the knowledge. Partaking is the act of living our lives by it.

The scriptures do verbalize what the love of God looks like, but your view of what is occurring is not mine.

We are also told to stir the gifts in us, and teach, prophesy, etc.

So what do I do?

I follow the Spirit's leading in my life who knows all hearts and what Father is up to.

Also, i can know my heart and if it is off, then I'm off.

Your post raises my issue with morality, which is partaking of the knowledge of good and evil, instead of being led by the Lord's Spirit in our lives.

 

[Jo555]

He did not say not to know about good and evil. He said not to eat from that tree. The problem was the spirit of disobedience which had them doing it. And then that evil spirit of Satan messed them up so they misunderstood good and evil.

But God says, they became like God to know good and evil. So, this would mean God knows good and evil. And God is not dead. So, I offer their real problem was they acted in the disobedient spirit which made them love-dead >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 2:2)

And we in Jesus do have our various moral rules.

Forgive, and do not be unforgiving.

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14)

Therefore, complaining and arguing are morally wrong.

And there are plenty more. But these have to do with changing to be and to love like Jesus. They are not just do's and don'ts, but guides about what is not done in the Holy Spirit and therefore do not do them.

Yes, partaking if the knowledge of good and evil is not condemning the knowledge. Partaking is the act of living our lives by it.

The scriptures do verbalize what the love of God looks like, but your view of what is occurring is not mine.

We are also told to stir the gifts in us, and teach, prophesy, etc.

So what do I do?

I follow the Spirit's leading in my life who knows all hearts and what Father is up to.

Also, i can know my heart and if it is off, then I'm off.

Your post raises my issue with morality. Morality is partaking if the knowledge of good and evil instead of being led by the Spirit.

 

[Jo555]

Yes, partaking if the knowledge of good and evil is not condemning the knowledge. Partaking is the act of living our lives by it.

The scriptures do verbalize what the love of God looks like, but your view of what is occurring is not mine.

We are also told to stir the gifts in us, and teach, prophesy, etc.

So what do I do?

I follow the Spirit's leading in my life who knows all hearts and what Father is up to.

Also, i can know my heart and if it is off, then I'm off.

Your post raises my issue with morality. Morality is partaking if the knowledge of good and evil instead of being led by the Spirit.

Forgot to address the forgiveness part. Yes, this is a commandment that shapes our conscience. Therefore, morality. We should forgive others for we have been forgiven, but if we try and do this in our own power because our conscience condemns us, we'll fail.

Forgiveness is an outflow of the love of God alive in our hearts.

A moral code, like the letter of the law, has no power against my carnal nature. Only the love of God alive in my heart by his Spirit.

Morality is a faculty of human nature. It can influence my behavior, but doesn't change the heart.

 

[Jo555]

Here is a fabulous example of the love of God alive in our hearts over morality-knowledge of good and evil.

Romans 14:
8 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.[a]

4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.

 

[com7fy8]

Your post raises my issue with morality, which is partaking of the knowledge of good and evil, instead of being led by the Lord's Spirit in our lives.

But the Holy Spirit can lead us according to what He knows about good and evil. And He can teach us about this, so we have the right understanding.

As I offered, we are told it is evil to complain.

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14)

And we trust the Holy Spirit to lead us according to how God understands this moral rule which is in the New Testament.

 

[Jo555]

Ok, think I'm understanding you better. Can be challenging at times online, especially when you are trying to take in several different posts by different people and respond to all.

I thought you were trying to silence us. If that was not the case, my bad.

I need to take time out when i get several things at once so i can understand each better.

Yes. Agreed. In this case i get you.

If the Holy Spirit is leading, then you are being led by the Spirit.

But if I am not in the Spirit, I may not complain out loud, but my heart may be full of complaints and disputes because knowledge alone cannot touch my heart.

 

[stevevw]

From the fall we knew good and evil. But Gods laws were known by our conscience. So the stage was set and God gave us His laws though Moses.

All this was to show we were guilty before the law. sinners in need of redemption. Thank God for His laws.

 

[Jo555]

From the fall we knew good and evil. But Gods laws were known by our conscience. So the stage was set and God gave us His laws though Moses.

All this was to show we were guilty before the law. sinners in need of redemption. Thank God for His laws.

Amen. The law is good. It's not the guilty party. And, it was because of our sin, partaking if the knowledge of good and evil to be like God) that God brought in the law as a temp measure. Once in faith, the Spirit becomes our guide and we are being perfected in love.

It's something we inherited due to the fall, and it has been and is still useful today. I mean where would be without laws in society? We who are in the faith though are now to be led by the Spirit.

So it isn't that the law is bad. Nor is growing in our knowledge of the Word, but it is the Spirit that reveals the Word to us and guides as the living Word alive in our hearts.

Stuff you probably know Steve. Sometimes I just go on in case it will be of use to another, and complete the thought.

Thanks for sharing that beneficial piece. We sure do not want to accuse the law,
and God for it. God was just working within our choice of going at it without Him.

 

[Jo555]

Amen. The law is good. It's not the guilty party. And, it was because of our sin, partaking if the knowledge of good and evil to be like God) that God brought in the law as a temp measure. Once in faith, the Spirit becomes our guide and we are being perfected in love.

It's something we inherited due to the fall, and it has been and is still useful today. I mean where would be without laws in society? We who are in the faith though are now to be led by the Spirit.

So it isn't that the law is bad. Nor is growing in our knowledge of the Word, but it is the Spirit that reveals the Word to us and guides as the living Word alive in our hearts.

Stuff you probably know Steve. Sometimes I just go on in case it will be of use to another, and complete the thought.

Thanks for sharing that beneficial piece. We sure do not want to accuse the law, and God for it. God was just working within our choice of going at it without Him.

Which raises a crucial point. In order to understand parts of scripture, we need to understand it within the larger picture of who God is (immeasurable love and goodness), and his overall plan of bringing many sons and daughters into their inheritance found only in Christ, being like Him, instead of trying to attain that apart from Him.

If we don't see portions within that, it can take on distortions of the truth. This is especially so in the case of atheists, who try and understand portions apart from Him and his overall plan.

And especially if you see yourself as good. You'll condemn God in your heart. Yes, the law is still needed, who shows us ourselves at heart apart from Christ.

 

[Yarddog]

It's human nature to be critical. Even so, if we are proclaiming to know the way, the truth, and life, there will be those looking at our works to see evidence of that.

I think where many of us misstep is that we are trying to be good through morality and ethics instead of walking in the Spirit where his love produces good works.

As I like to say to my mom whom is always telling me how good I am. I say, "Mom, of myself I'm not good, but I really love you and that love causes me to be good to you."

That said, I think many of them appear to see us as unintelligent, ignorant fools that are clueless as to the basic theories of humanity and what makes them tick.

I agree that much of mankind is following the wrong path. Man cannot make himself in the image of God, so we sin when we try because we are cutting God out.

There are many allegories in scripture and the Tower of Babylon represents people that try to attain heaven through their own efforts, including many Christians. People fail to understand that the only way to please God is to surrender to the Spirit which he gives us through baptism.

It is impossible for man to create himself in God's image so we shouldn't try. Jesus has already been perfect for us and we need to pick up the cross and carry it with us for it is the key which opens the gate to heaven.

Only God's Holy Spirit can change man's spirit in the way God wants.

 

[Laodicean60]

It's human nature to be critical. Even so, if we are proclaiming to know the way, the truth, and life, there will be those looking at our works to see evidence of that.

The problem is looking at other's works and not focusing on ourselves after all there's one righteous Judge. For humans and our egos, it's hard to judge anyone fairly.

Therefore we see them in the dark and ignorant. We know the wisdom of God surpasses any human attributes.

Agreed

That said, I think many of them appear to see us as unintelligent, ignorant fools that are clueless as to the basic theories of humanity and what makes them tick.

I've never been one to care what others think about me and like you, I believe there is no one good. Sinners correcting sinners in my view comes from egomaniacs.

Which raises a crucial point. In order to understand parts of scripture, we need to understand it within the larger picture of who God is (immeasurable love and goodness), and his overall plan of bringing many sons and daughters into their inheritance found only in Christ, being like Him, instead of trying to attain that apart from Him.

Amen, I believe it's all about how you view the Lord either God of love or judgment and the latter is more prevalent. Christians are worried because everything is in our faces when comes to groups of people's lifestyles it is a war against flesh and blood but Christians started it by imposing our morality on them and calling them sinners. I believe God still has the power to reach people like He did with me.

 

[Jo555]

I agree that much of mankind is following the wrong path. Man cannot make himself in the image of God, so we sin when we try because we are cutting God out.

There are many allegories in scripture and the Tower of Babylon represents people that try to attain heaven through their own efforts, including many Christians. People fail to understand that the only way to please God is to surrender to the Spirit which he gives us through baptism.

It is impossible for man to create himself in God's image so we shouldn't try. Jesus has already been perfect for us and we need to pick up the cross and carry it with us for it is the key which opens the gate to heaven.

Only God's Holy Spirit can change man's spirit in the way God wants.

Go Dog!

We can also try and reform the carnal nature when it can't be. It's sentence is death, and it is crucified with Christ. As you said in picking up our cross ...

By God's Spirit we can ignore the carnal nature's call.

And as we come into greater revelation of Him and his truth, it also transforms our souls (mind, will, and emotions). And like Paul, we can be content in all situations ... Except when we are sharing the grievances of the Lord, but even in that there is content on another level.

 

[Jo555]

The problem is looking at other's works and not focusing on ourselves after all there's one righteous Judge. For humans and our egos, it's hard to judge anyone fairly.

Agreed

I've never been one to care what others think about me and like you, I believe there is no one good. Sinners correcting sinners in my view comes from egomaniacs.

Amen, I believe it's all about how you view the Lord either God of love or judgment and the latter is more prevalent. Christians are worried because everything is in our faces when comes to groups of people's lifestyles it is a war against flesh and blood but Christians started it by imposing our morality on them and calling them sinners. I believe God still has the power to reach people like He did with me.

Applause.

I believe I agree with it all, except want to elaborate more with your last statement. We need to realize we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but principalities, etc (something I have to remind myself) and we need to put on the full armor of God.

We are all sinners in the flesh, but I hear you. Yes, you can't impose your morality on others.

As the good book says, judgement begins in the house of the Lord for we are destined to shine his light bright so all can see and be drawn. And, we are granted a fuller measure of his riches for his purposes, etc.

There is no reason to discipline a child that is not yours, accept for the sake of the overall wellbeing of society.

We also have to stop looking at each other in the rearview mirror of the past. The Lord recently showed me another spotting me and looking at me in the rearview mirror, and i could sense this twisted wicked thing emanating out of it. Thing was i believe it was the spirit driving the person, the person was in the passenger seat and the spirit appeared to be reassuring it that it was ok he was driving. I wasn't close enough to see who the person was. Therefore, i know the identity wasn't important to the Lord, but that I got the message, was aware, and stick close to Him

I got the message. I've been spotted and I'm being viewed through the lense of the past. That was it, but I also know that when you are spotted you can then become targeted.

If I perish, I perish, but I know I overcome in Christ. Just need to stick close to Him.

Dont know if you believe in that stuff. Whether you do or not there is value there.

And I'm not perfected yet, as no one is yet so my behavior isn't always ideal. We need to be aware of how we may have contributed.

We need to see beyond all that because we all mess up at times. Doesn't mean we have to put up with each others behaviors, but for the believer, remain in love and as the Lord leads.