what is the function of the soul?

[JEBofChristTheLord]

I have a precise definition at What is the human soul technically?. Would you accept my definition for the purpose of our communication?

Hmmmm:

The Hebrew word "nephesh" (soul) and the Greek words "phyches" (soul) and "pneumatos" (spirit) and the English word 'soul" are polysemantic. Their lexical meanings overlap. For precision and argumentation, I define spirit as a non-baryonic (invisible) substance that houses a person's conscience. I define soul as the collective faculties of volition, emotion, intellect, and memory. These definitions are based on Watchman Nee's The Spiritual Man.

Nope, won't fly. The Holy Spirit is a spirit, and He is not merely a houser of a conscience, He is an entire person. Furthermore, when an evil spirit or the Holy Spirit comes into a person, the spirit of that person is affected in ways far more than mere conscience.

 

[tonychanyt]

The Holy Spirit is a spirit, and He is not merely a houser of a conscience

Can you quote the words I asserted above?

 

[tonychanyt]

We read of souls conscious and crying out to God even after death. there is no soul sleep in scripture.

See What is our state of being after we die? and follow up there.

 

[LoveofTruth]

See What is our state of being after we die? and follow up there.

This is not a parable, it’s a realistic story showing consciousness after death and what happened to the Old Testamebt saints before Jesus died and ride again abd what happens to the lost. Jesus story would be very confusing if he tells that the souls are conscious avd have some kind of body and can see and speak etc if they were not conscious avd did not have a body etc.

All attempt to twist this section into a parable and make it meaningless or to try and say exactly the opposite of what this’ story shows are erroneous abd all that is needed really is this one section of scripture but there are many more scriptures as well.

Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

Even if some say this was not an actual story, it is very realistic. But it is definitely not showing a erroneous doctrine of “soul sleep”, or soul zip”.

Definitely.

 

[tonychanyt]

This is not a parable

What is not a parable? Please be precise.

 

[LoveofTruth]

What is not a parable? Please be precise.

This section that I posted

“

Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

 

[tonychanyt]

There was a certain rich man

See Is the story of Lazarus and the rich man literal? and follow up there

 

[LoveofTruth]

See Is the story of Lazarus and the rich man literal? and follow up there

As I had said in a post above,

"Even if some say this was not an actual story, it is very realistic. But it is definitely not showing a erroneous doctrine of “soul sleep”, or soul zip”."

Also Jesus spoke of consciousness after death in that story. This alone would be confusing if there was no consciousness after death. The JW's and Seven Day Adventist I believe hold to the souls sleep view which many christians do not. The JWs also question the trinity and some do not see Jesus for who he is and try to wrongly say he is an angel or Michael.

But consider,

Specific names are mentioned, which are not in other parables. You will not find other names mentioned in any parable, try if you want to. "Moses" and "Abraham" are specific people mentioned in scripture and "Lazarus" is a specific name. In The parables when people are mentioned they are more generic, like "Master of the house" or "a king" or "a certain man. These have a spiritual counterpart. But when we read of Lazarus and Abraham etc, these are specific. We also read of the work of Angels in the story, what could this mean except part of their duty to carry Lazarus to a certain place, being conscious.

The parables do not ever have heavenly settings. They should convey spiritual truths and never contradict truth. If souls sleep" or "soul Zip" were a doctrine then the story of Lazarus being conscious after death would be an error of doctrine and contradict it. But it is a truth not a fable.

The place of the dead where both men are is divided by a great gulf fixed between and they cannot pass. This would be in line with jesus telling the him that today he would be with jesus in paradise. Also we read that Jesus

“(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?”"( Ephesians 4:9)

“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Matthew 12:40)

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

Also Jesus spoke about adultery to the pharisees right before this story and that was not a parable he spoke to them.

When Jesus shed His blood for sin and rose again, then could he take all the OT saints out of Abrahams Bosom, ( a place of comfort and waiting for them) and bring them with him and those in the torment side would not be freed.

I know you will try to argue this and say Jesus said other things on the cross. But all this can be understood in the light of what is being shared here.

 

[tonychanyt]

Jesus spoke of consciousness after death in that story.

Right.

Let proposition P1 = After a person has died, he remains conscious.

Is P1 true?

 

[Jo555]

Hello Everyone
We all know, Christians and non-Christians that we have a soul but what is a soul?
Why do we need it?
What is the purpose of the soul?
Is the soul an actual body or not?
How is the soul influencing us?
what is the difference between soul and spirit?
May God Bless You

The simplest way I know how to describe it is the mind, will, and emotions.

As a Christian these things go through a transformation as we unplug from the world, their belief systems, etc, and turn to the Lord so that his Spirit can bring the revelation of Him and the love and faith (knowledge revealed by his Spirit) that comes with that.

 

[Aaron112]

proposition After a person has died, he remains conscious.

Those who know Scripture and the power of God know that a dead person knows nothing.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Those who know Scripture and the power of God know that a dead person knows nothing.

The body that sleeps in the grave is waiting for the redemption of the body (if saved), but the person is conscious after death as we read in many verses. Also even the lost have some kind of body and consciousness after death as Lazarus and the ricjh=h man show. They both were conscious after death and had some kind of bodies.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;..." *Revelation 6:9-11)

etc.

 

[tonychanyt]

They both were conscious after death and had some kind of bodies.

Before their resurrection on the Last Day?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Before their resurrection on the Last Day?

Yes

We see the souls who died in some kind of bodies in Revelation 6, they also were given white robes, which shows they had sone kind of body.

Also Lazarus and the rich man had some kind of body and could see and speak. Also we see Moses and Elijah appearing and vanishing in some kind of body at the transfiguration of Jesus. We also see Paul mentions a man bending caught up into the third heaven he says he didn’t know if it was in the body or out of it. Etc …

2 Corinthians 5: 1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit…8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

 

[tonychanyt]

Yes

The rich man in Lk 16:19 had a body before Judgment Day and general resurrection.

True?

 

[Aaron112]

Such common errors are dispelled by bullinger in his lesson: the rich man and lazarus.

It is "easy", or at least in complete harmony with all Scripture, as he shows
there is no instance at all
of a human floating around as if etherally ..... (without a body);
and the story of lazarus was Jesus using the false beliefs of some Jewish religious leaders against themselves. (i.e. it was not a lesson for the disciples nor for forum readers)

 

[CoreyD]

Such common errors are dispelled by bullinger in his lesson: the rich man and lazarus.

It is "easy", or at least in complete harmony with all Scripture, as he shows
there is no instance at all
of a human floating around as if etherally ..... (without a body);
and the story of lazarus was Jesus using the false beliefs of some Jewish religious leaders against themselves. (i.e. it was not a lesson for the disciples nor for forum readers)

The thing is, while Billinger might himself be a teacher worth listening to on this matter, one only needs to listen to the scriptures.
Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Ecclesiastes 12:7
That would help us avoid making the mistake of failing to recognize a parable for what is is, and misapplying it.

 

[Aaron112]

The thing is, while Billinger might himself be a teacher worth listening to on this matter, one only needs to listen to the scriptures.

I cannot tell with certainty from any posts if anyone on forum understand the Scriptures at all. From Bullinger's lessons in harmony completely with all Scripture it is possible to tell that God Gave Him Understanding that surpasses the best scholars here (on forum).

 

[CoreyD]

I cannot tell with certainty from any posts if anyone on forum understand the Scriptures at all. From Bullinger's lessons in harmony completely with all Scripture it is possible to tell that God Gave Him Understanding that surpasses the best scholars here (on forum).

I understand.
If Billinger works for you, stay with him, until you are sure otherwise.
There are markers though that must all be in place, and if any one is missing, then you need to ask questions.

One marker, is that Christ's body is not a "one man show".
Christ left a body of followers to carry on the work he started, and it grew rapidly to encompass the entire globe... making a united brotherhood engaged in making disciples of people of all the nations (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:18-20), as Peter mentioned. 1 Peter 5:19

I don't want to derail the thread though, with a different topic, so that's all I will say, on that.
I always have to tell you though... you are a shrewd person.
So, you will find your way.

 

[Aaron112]

There are markers though that must all be in place, and if any one is missing, then you need to ask questions.

Trust Jesus. Follow Jesus. He Alone Saves us/our souls!/ from the multitude of the devil's followers.