What is the purpose of the entire "mariology-hagiography" sub-forum?

[prodromos]

Your lung of the Church, but even then it cannot be known who performs hyperdulian maximalism and who does not

I reject the two lungs analogy, but I also suspect that you go way beyond Catholic teaching too.

 

[AveChristusRex]

I reject the two lungs analogy, but I also suspect that you go way beyond Catholic teaching too.

I am unsure as to what you mean by that, however I do know that, at least nominally, it is accepted in Catholicism (Ut Unum Sint), and is Catholic teaching since before Florenece, but was ultimately codified at Florence through Cantate Domino. The 'two lungs,' particularly in Orthodoxy, is not entirely unknown, with Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev, chairman of the Representation of the Russian Orthodox Church to the European Institutions, telling the 6th Gniezno Convention that the metaphor is "particularly relevant" when he "proposed to form a European Catholic-Orthodox Alliance" and said "nothing should prevent us from uniting our efforts in order to defend Christian tradition, without waiting for the restoration of full unity between the two lungs of European Christianity." Moreover, prior to this comment, Ion Bria wrote in 1991 that the metaphor "may be attractive as an aid for understanding the formation of two distinctive traditions in Christianity after A.D. 1054."

Moreover, what specifically are you mentioning that I am going "way beyond" Catholic teaching? Was that meant to say "way beyond Catholic teaching [in other things] too" and to highlight that it is outside of Catholic teaching?

 

[AveChristusRex]

Do not call anyone on Earth your father. Do not call anyone on Earth your leader. Do not call anyone on Earth your teacher (rabbi) or allow anyone on Earth to call you teacher. Why? Because if you exalt yourself you will be humbled. And this speaks directly to your next point about the "ministerial priests".

Uh oh! St. Paul explicitly refers to himself as a spiritual father: "For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel" (1 Corinthians 4:15). Paul also affirms teaching and leadership as legitimate roles in the Church: "And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers" (Ephesians 4:11).

All who are in Christ are "ministerial priests" to God, with Jesus as our High Priest (Matt 28:19, 1 Pet 2:4-5). There is not supposed to be a separate "clergy" class separate from the rest of the Church, for we are all brothers and sisters and equal in Christ.

Though, Elisha calls Elijah "my father" (2 Kings 2:12), and Joseph tells his brothers that God made him "a father to Pharaoh" (Genesis 45:8), referring to his role as an advisor. Furthermore, in the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), the term "father" represents God, but it is also used for the human father in the story. Uh oh! It seems your one verse position crumbles under the weight of the rest of scripture.

When anyone "baptizes" a baby, they get only one thing: a wet baby. Infant baptism is meaningless, because for baptism to be efficacious it requires the recipient (not the parents of the recipient) to believe the Gospel (Rom 10:14) and that they confess Jesus as Lord. Infants cannot understand sin, that they are in need of a savior, or the sacrifice that Jesus made to become their savior; nor can they confess Jesus as Lord (since they don't even understand the concept. Infant baptism is meaningless.

Anathema! The New Testament mentions household baptisms (e.g., Acts 16:15, 16:33; 1 Corinthians 1:16), which, if you didn't know, includes infants. Moreover, you directly go against Christ's teaching where he explicitly welcomed children and infants: “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:14).

This is certainly true about adult baptism. But it is not the person who baptizes who causes the "birthing" of a soul; it is the Holy Spirit who takes action to cause the rebirth (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7). The person doing the baptizing is immaterial to the process.

So, what is the magical age where you can actually be baptized cognizantly? Are you to say that if someone below the understanding of cognizance wishes to be baptized, they cannot because they do not have the understanding of Jesus that a healthy, grown adult does? If salvation depends only on intellectual understanding, then those who are mentally impaired or die before reaching an age of reason would also be excluded. Would you say so?

I do agree on the immateriality of the baptizer, though.

Because ANYONE who is in Christ has the mandate from Jesus' own lips to teach, baptize, and make further disciples of Jesus. There is no need or authority for a separate "priest" class.

You misunderstand the key point of the passage: Jesus specifically chose the Twelve Apostles, giving them unique authority (Matthew 10:1-8, Luke 22:19-20, John 20:21-23), and those apostles appointed successors (e.g., Matthias in Acts 1:26, Timothy and Titus in the Pauline Epistles) to continue their ministry. These leaders had specific roles, such as teaching, governing, and celebrating the Eucharist (1 Timothy 3:1-7, Titus 1:5-9). Moreover these points:

• In Acts 8:14-17, when the Samaritans were baptized, Peter and John came to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit. This demonstrates that the apostles and their successors had a unique role in completing the sacramental rites.
• In 1 Corinthians 11:23-26, Paul emphasizes that he received instructions for the Eucharist directly from the Lord, indicating a special transmission of authority for administering the sacraments.
• In Hebrews 5:1-4, the letter to the Hebrews speaks of priests being called by God to act on behalf of others, drawing a parallel between the Old Testament priesthood and the role of ordained ministers in the Church.
• In 1 Corinthians 12:28-30 Paul describes various roles within the Church, including teachers, apostles, and administrators, showing that different functions are distributed among believers.

Oh woe to those wicked apostles, and their wicked sayings, for they show that I am not as important as I thought I was!

 

[FreeinChrist]

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