Who are the People in Revelation?

[Jerryhuerta]

Both futurists and preterists’ methods of interpretation prompt them to see the narrative in Revelation concerns the Old Covenant people. The trials or judgments in the book concern the Old Covenant people, not the New Testament people. These trials or judgments are because Israel rejected Christ. Such views require an open theist view concerning promises to Israel in the OT. Open theists hold that God cannot interfere with free will because it would make God responsible for sin. Consequently, God isn’t controlling or determining the outcome of events but merely responding to them. This is undoubtedly how the futurists interpret what happened when Christ came. As futurists, Dispensationalists believe God postponed “the kingdom at hand” (Matthew 10:7) until some later date and introduced some Church age unforeseen by the prophets because the Jews should have avowed Christ, which is contrary to God’s word,

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)​

Preterists also believe the Jews should have avowed Christ, and when they didn’t, God took “the kingdom at hand” and gave it to the Church (Matthew 21:43), which is supersessionism. We will show the preterists’ claim to Reformed Theology in this matter is specious and why the futurist’s claim of Arminianism is also fallacious. Any belief that “the kingdom at hand” was modified or unrealized as a result of Israel’s rejection of Christ is open theism.

Supersessionists are predominately Reformed, while futurists are mostly Arminianists; both supposedly believe in God’s meticulous providence. Retired Professor of Theology and numerous other accreditations, John Mark Hicks, expresses the views of Arminianists in a thesis published on the internet,

Arminius’ main interest is to protect God’s faithfulness to his own love by attributing the origin of evil in the world to human freedom so that God is not the author (determinative cause) of sin as well as to protect God’s sovereignty over the created order. On the one hand, Arminius seeks to preserve God’s goodness—to defend God against the charge of evil. On the other hand, he believes that God is specifically responsible for evil acts in the world since God specifically permits each one. God is so sovereign over the creation that God decides whether to permit every specific act of sin. God is meticulously involved in the world though not deterministically.[1]​

The Reformed view maintains a deterministic view of Providence, while the Arminianist holds God reacts to possibilities he foresees. The distinction concerns the human will; the former believes the will of a fallen man is not free from “the law of sin and death,” as expressed in Romans 7-8. At the same time, Arminianists such as Hicks fail to account for Romans 7-8 in their misconception determinism would make God the cause of sin,

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1-4)​

Paul prefaces his thanks for being free “from the law of sin and death” with his rhetorical question, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” in Romans 7:24. Paul answers his question in the next chapter; “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ” freed him from “the law of sin and death.” A proper exegesis of Paul here maintains man is incapable of freeing himself from his fallen nature; Christ must free him. Scripture proves man’s self-determination is not free, which substantiates the Compatibilist’s view of salvation; fallen man is a slave to his sinful flesh, and salvation is a predetermined gift from God,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. (Ephesians 1:3-5)​

​

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) (Ephesians 2:1-5)​

So how can we interpret that God “ordained” the “builders” to reject the cornerstone in the Parable of the Tenants?

When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (Matthew 21:40-44)​

Reformed theologian and adjunct professor at Whitefield Theological Seminary, Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, explains the Reformed’s view on the tenant’s rejection of Christ,

The intention of God in the Gospel in the compound sense to the reprobate is to fill up their sins. God had no intention on saving them and no desire for them to come and be saved in this sense. How can we deny that in this sense? He desired the salvation of the elect, and upon His timing they will be set free, indeed. But the reprobate merely fill up their sins, and harden themselves being devoid of true calling and justifying faith. It is God’s will that they are damned to glorify His justice. They will have no excuses to render Him on judgment day, and even they will know that the Gospel has filled up their sins all the more (they are more condemned for hearing the Gospel and rejecting it) and justly so. Their wicked hearts and wicked dispositions rejected the only means whereby they would have found life. They should have trusted Christ by faith (justifying faith given to them by God). However, God was not pleased to grant it to them. Rather, His purpose for them in the compound sense is to reject salvation, and continue to fill up the measure, the ordained level, of their sin, that they may be rightly judged on the day of the Lord. [2]​

MacMahon uses Jeremiah, where it is written, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked” and that “the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings” (Jeremiah 17:9-10). God did not influence the tenants to disavow Christ; nevertheless, he used the tenants to fulfill his will that they smite Christ so that the sheep would be scattered and the Gospel go out the world,

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (Zechariah 13:7)​

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The point is that God is not responsible for the sins of the “builders” in determining that they reject Christ; he merely left them in their fallen condition in which they were unable to rise above their selfish interests and avow Christ. All the evidence supports that God determined to call Israel to the kingdom at hand, which was not unrealized or modified but was the fulfillment of the prophecies that the remnant of Israel be sown or scattered to the nations in fulfillment that the seed of Abraham would be a blessing to the nations,

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Genesis 12:1-3)​

Christ didn’t come to gather the house of Israel, which is expected in restoring Israel according to the prophets (Psalms 106:47; Micah 2:12; Zephaniah 3:20; Isaiah 27:12; Jeremiah 31:10; Ezekiel 39:27; Zechariah 10:10). Contrary to preterism and futurism, the prophets saw Israel restored to God in the wilderness, scattered abroad, before the remnant is gathered back to the glorified kingdom,

At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people. Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest. (Jeremaih 31:1-2)​

Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. (Ezekiel 34:22-26)​

​

And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. (Zechariah 10:7-9)​

In Zechariah, the word translated as “hiss” reads whistle in other versions and is used in the context of calling or summoning, which is what we witness in the gospels. Christ sent the disciples to summon Israel to the kingdom that was at hand,

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 10:5-7)​

Christ fulfilled what the prophets foretold; he called Israel to him so that he could sow or scatter them to the nations, find grace in the wilderness, and be a light to the Gentiles, which Christ relates in the parables in Matthew 13,

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field… The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom (Matthew 13:24, 38)​

Isaiah supports that God's intent was to restore the remnant of Israel before gathering them back to their land so that they could be a light to the Gentiles,

And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isaiah 49:5-6)​

Isaiah agrees that Christ will bring Jacob back to God before they are gathered back to their land, finding grace in the wilderness, as Jeremiah prophesied. Christ opened the eyes of the apostles to this plan in Luke,

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:44-47)​

Luke affirms that even Christ’s disciples, like the rebellious shepherds, believed that the Messiah would come to restore their temporal dominion. However, Luke’s account reveals that Christ opened their minds by stating that he had not come to restore the kingdom in that sense. He explained that his purpose was not to regain their earthly dominion but that he should die so that the “remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.,” according to the prophets. Jeremiah prophesied these days and is one of the sources of Christ’s Parable of the Sower,

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD… Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah. (Jeremiah 31: 27-28, 31)​

Christ didn’t base his parables on unforeseen outcomes concerning his call to Israel. Instead, all had their basis in ordained outcomes. According to the OT, the children of Israel would be scattered throughout the world and gathered back at Christ’s return, which is when Israel will be restored to its dominion. Such evidence destroys the futurist and preterist models because it affirms that the interim between Christ’s first and second comings was predicted in the OT and represents “the kingdom at hand.” Christ mediates over the Church, which is what the narration of Revelation concerns. Revelation is not about the Old Covenant people but what was ordained about the Church in the inter-advent era, contrary to the preterist’s misapprehensions about eschatological imminence.

We have a contradiction in Hicks and MacMahon’s assertions that God is meticulously working out his plans in Providence when they hold that God’s plans were modified or unrealized concerning the kingdom at hand. The kingdom at hand was realized without modifications, contrary to what futurists and preterists maintain. To suggest less is open theism, which Hicks defines in his thesis. According to Hicks, open theists deny “God specifically permits every evil act, concurs with every finite act by acting alongside the actor and in the effects of the act, and sovereignly directs those acts toward good ends.”[3] In contradiction to open theism, God directs his Providence and does not change his mind according to man’s will,

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)​

The notion that God changed his mind, repented, and failed to establish the kingdom at hand because the Jews rejected Christ leads to all sorts of misrepresentations like preterism and futurism. Supersessionism entered the Church before the Reformation and became embedded in some sects of historicism. Citing from one historicist supersessionist source who believes that the kingdom at hand was modified, we read,

Seventh-day Adventists believe that, generally speaking, the promises and predictions given through the Old Testament prophets originally applied to literal Israel and were to have been fulfilled to them on the condition that they obey God and remain loyal to him. But the Scriptures record that fact that they disobeyed God and proved disloyal to Him instead. Accordingly, what He purposed to do for the world through Israel of old He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today, and many of the promises originally made to literal Israel will be fulfilled to His remnant people at the close of time.​

​

The modernist school of interpretation bases its position on the a priori assumption that any knowledge of the future is impossible, and ignore evidence to the contrary. The futurist school ignores both the conditional element pervading predictive prophecy, clearly and emphatically proclaimed by the prophets themselves, and the specific statements of the New Testament that affirms that the privileges and responsibilities of ancient Israel have, in Christ, been transferred to the Church.[4]​

Such a view maintains that the OT prophets were mistaken, and Israel was replaced by the Church because their promises were conditional, which is an open theist perception. The Adventists failed to grasp that the restoration of Israel’s dominion was not the intent when Christ came but that the remnant of Israel would be scattered and find grace in the wilderness under the New Covenant before being gathered back and their dominion restored. The Adventist’s view asserts God is like a man who repents, just as when the futurists assert that God had intended to establish the kingdom at hand but changed his mind and postponed it until the unforeseen time the era of the Church ends.

I deal with these issues in my new book, The Four Horsemen and the Merchants of Revelation, which I’m offering for free to the first five persons who message me.


[1] John Mark Hicks, Classic Arminianism and Open Theism: A Substantial Difference in Their Theologies of Providence, 2013, https://johnmarkhicks.com/wp-conten.../03/classical-arminianism-and-open-theism.pdf

[2] Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, The Two Wills of God: Does God Really Have Two Wills? (Kindle Locations 4577-4579). Lulu.com. Kindle Edition.

[3] Hicks, Classic Arminianism and Open Theism: A Substantial Difference in Their Theologies of Providence.

[4] The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 4, s.v. “The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy,” Review and Herald Pub. Ass., 1980, 25

 

[d taylor]

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Believers and unbelievers.

Believers are people (Jews and gentiles) who have come to believe in Jesus after the rapture of born again believers before the tribulation starts. Unbelievers are people who have not believed in Jesus and who will eventually take the mark, etc...

 

[Jerryhuerta]

-
​

Believers and unbelievers.

Believers are people (Jews and gentiles) who have come to believe in Jesus after the rapture of born again believers before the tribulation starts. Unbelievers are people who have not believed in Jesus and who will eventually take the mark, etc...

Really nothing of merit to comment here, as it really doesn’t address anything about my OP.

 

[d taylor]

Really nothing of merit to comment here, as it really doesn’t address anything about my OP.

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​

Your title of your thread ask Who are the People in Revelation

 

[Jerryhuerta]

-
​

Your title of your thread ask Who are the People in Revelation

And of course you have to comment without reading why I say that. So I don't have to give your post any thought either.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

So many commentators on so-called Christian forums never address any issues in the OP. They merely post to parrot or regurgitate their dogma and seem incapable of actual spiritual growth. They love to talk past those who disagree with their dogma. For spiritual growth to occur, one must study what one's opponents believe to present a sound argument. Of course, there are exceptions, but they are rare. That's what my OP does; it is a study of what the opponents of historicism believe and exposes their irrational beliefs according to scripture and reason.

 

[Aaron112]

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked”

This is fulfilled, seen worldwide in all the media and forums and most assemblies.

 

[keras]

So many commentators on so-called Christian forums never address any issues in the OP. They merely post to parrot or regurgitate their dogma and seem incapable of actual spiritual growth. They love to talk past those who disagree with their dogma. For spiritual growth to occur, one must study what one's opponents believe to present a sound argument. Of course, there are exceptions, but they are rare. That's what my OP does; it is a study of what the opponents of historicism believe and exposes their irrational beliefs according to scripture and reason.

I have read the OP.
It is wrong and why it is wrong, is because you trust the wise and learned people. Jesus very plainly said the God withholds the truths of the Prophetic Word from such people. Matthew 11:25-26

For example, this is never said to happen:

many of the promises originally made to literal Israel will be fulfilled to His remnant people at the close of time.

After 3000 years, there is no such thing as an ethnic Israel.
Those who falsely call themselves Jews, Rev 2:9b, and their country Israel, are usurpers and their fate is well Prophesied. Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7,+

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I have read the OP.
It is wrong and why it is wrong, is because you trust the wise and learned people. Jesus very plainly said the God withholds the truths of the Prophetic Word from such people. Matthew 11:25-26

Obviously, your comprehension is lacking. I don't trust in wise and learned people, whatever that means. I cite them to show how they contradict themselves, which shows they're not so learned and wise.

For example, this is never said to happen:

After 3000 years, there is no such thing as an ethnic Israel.
Those who falsely call themselves Jews, Rev 2:9b, and their country Israel, are usurpers and their fate is well Prophesied. Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7,+

How shallow. As long as there are descendants of Israel/Ephriam then God keeps his promises. Even Hosea prophesied Ephraim is mixed with the Gentiles (Hosea 7:8). And Hosea 2 and Zechariah 10 affirms Ephriam finds grace while sown to the nations, the wilderness, in this age.

 

[keras]

As long as there are descendants of Israel/Ephriam then God keeps his promises

Galatians 3:26-29 ....So if Christians belong to Christ, WE are the issue of Abraham and the heirs of Gods Promises to His peoples.
Also; Isaiah 51:1-2 ....you who follow after righteousness and who seek the Lord in faith, Abraham is your father and Sarah your mother.....

The peoples who do not receive Gods Promises, are those who reject Jesus and follow unrighteousness. Those who rely on their own strength and dismiss their Creator.

 

[Truth7t7]

The point is that God is not responsible for the sins of the “builders” in determining that they reject Christ; he merely left them in their fallen condition in which they were unable to rise above their selfish interests and avow Christ. All the evidence supports that God determined to call Israel to the kingdom at hand, which was not unrealized or modified but was the fulfillment of the prophecies that the remnant of Israel be sown or scattered to the nation in fulfillment that the seed of Abraham would be a blessing to the nations,

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Genesis 12:1-3)​

Christ didn’t come to gather the house of Israel, which is expected in restoring Israel according to the prophets (Psalms 106:47; Micah 2:12; Zephaniah 3:20; Isaiah 27:12; Jeremiah 31:10; Ezekiel 39:27; Zechariah 10:10). Contrary to preterism and futurism, the prophets saw Israel restored to God in the wilderness, scattered abroad, before the remnant is gathered back to the glorified kingdom,

At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people. Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest. (Jeremaih 31:1-2)​

Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. (Ezekiel 34:22-26)​

​

And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. (Zechariah 10:7-9)​

In Zechariah, the word translated as “hiss” reads whistle in other versions and is used in the context of calling or summoning, which is what we witness in the gospels. Christ sent the disciples to summon Israel to the kingdom that was at hand,

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 10:5-7)​

Christ fulfilled what the prophets foretold; he called Israel to him so that he could sow or scatter them to the nations, find grace in the wilderness, and be a light to the Gentiles, which Christ relates in the parables in Matthew 13,

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field… The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom (Matthew 13:24, 38)​

Isaiah supports that God's intent was to restore the remnant of Israel before gathering them back to their land so that they could be a light to the Gentiles,

And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isaiah 49:5-6)​

Isaiah agrees that Christ will bring Jacob back to God before they are gathered back to their land, finding grace in the wilderness, as Jeremiah prophesied. Christ opened the eyes of the apostles to this plan in Luke,

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:44-47)​

Luke affirms that even Christ’s disciples, like the rebellious shepherds, believed that the Messiah would come to restore their temporal dominion. However, Luke’s account reveals that Christ opened their minds by stating that he had not come to restore the kingdom in that sense. He explained that his purpose was not to regain their earthly dominion but that he should die so that the “remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.,” according to the prophets. Jeremiah prophesied these days and is one of the sources of Christ’s Parable of the Sower,

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD… Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah. (Jeremiah 31: 27-28, 31)​

Christ didn’t base his parables on unforeseen outcomes concerning his call to Israel. Instead, all had their basis in ordained outcomes. According to the OT, the children of Israel would be scattered throughout the world and gathered back at Christ’s return, which is when Israel will be restored to its dominion. Such evidence destroys the futurist and preterist models because it affirms that the interim between Christ’s first and second comings was predicted in the OT and represents “the kingdom at hand.” Christ mediates over the Church, which is what the narration of Revelation concerns. Revelation is not about the Old Covenant people but what was ordained about the Church in the inter-advent era, contrary to the preterist’s misapprehensions about eschatological imminence.

We have a contradiction in Hicks and MacMahon’s assertions that God is meticulously working out his plans in Providence when they hold that God’s plans were modified or unrealized concerning the kingdom at hand. The kingdom at hand was realized without modifications, contrary to what futurists and preterists maintain. To suggest less is open theism, which Hicks defines in his thesis. According to Hicks, open theists deny “God specifically permits every evil act, concurs with every finite act by acting alongside the actor and in the effects of the act, and sovereignly directs those acts toward good ends.”[3] In contradiction to open theism, God directs his Providence and does not change his mind according to man’s will,

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)​

The notion that God changed his mind, repented, and failed to establish the kingdom at hand because the Jews rejected Christ leads to all sorts of misrepresentations like preterism and futurism. Supersessionism entered the Church before the Reformation and became embedded in some sects of historicism. Citing from one historicist supersessionist source who believes that the kingdom at hand was modified, we read,

Seventh-day Adventists believe that, generally speaking, the promises and predictions given through the Old Testament prophets originally applied to literal Israel and were to have been fulfilled to them on the condition that they obey God and remain loyal to him. But the Scriptures record that fact that they disobeyed God and proved disloyal to Him instead. Accordingly, what He purposed to do for the world through Israel of old He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today, and many of the promises originally made to literal Israel will be fulfilled to His remnant people at the close of time.​

​

The modernist school of interpretation bases its position on the a priori assumption that any knowledge of the future is impossible, and ignore evidence to the contrary. The futurist school ignores both the conditional element pervading predictive prophecy, clearly and emphatically proclaimed by the prophets themselves, and the specific statements of the New Testament that affirms that the privileges and responsibilities of ancient Israel have, in Christ, been transferred to the Church.[4]​

Such a view maintains that the OT prophets were mistaken, and Israel was replaced by the Church because their promises were conditional, which is an open theist perception. The Adventists failed to grasp that the restoration of Israel’s dominion was not the intent when Christ came but that the remnant of Israel would be scattered and find grace in the wilderness under the New Covenant before being gathered back and their dominion restored. The Adventist’s view asserts God is like a man who repents, just as when the futurists assert that God had intended to establish the kingdom at hand but changed his mind and postponed it until the unforeseen time the era of the Church ends.

I deal with these issues in my new book, The Four Horsemen and the Merchants of Revelation, which I’m offering for free to the first five persons who message me.


[1] John Mark Hicks, Classic Arminianism and Open Theism: A Substantial Difference in Their Theologies of Providence, 2013, https://johnmarkhicks.com/wp-conten.../03/classical-arminianism-and-open-theism.pdf

[2] Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, The Two Wills of God: Does God Really Have Two Wills? (Kindle Locations 4577-4579). Lulu.com. Kindle Edition.

[3] Hicks, Classic Arminianism and Open Theism: A Substantial Difference in Their Theologies of Providence.

[4] The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 4, s.v. “The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy,” Review and Herald Pub. Ass., 1980, 25

Toooooo longgggggg tooooooo readdddd

 

[Truth7t7]

Both futurists and preterists’ methods of interpretation prompt them to see the narrative in Revelation concerns the Old Covenant people. The trials or judgments in the book concern the Old Covenant people, not the New Testament people. These trials or judgments are because Israel rejected Christ. Such views require an open theist view concerning promises to Israel in the OT. Open theists hold that God cannot interfere with free will because it would make God responsible for sin. Consequently, God isn’t controlling or determining the outcome of events but merely responding to them. This is undoubtedly how the futurists interpret what happened when Christ came. As futurists, Dispensationalists believe God postponed “the kingdom at hand” (Matthew 10:7) until some later date and introduced some Church age unforeseen by the prophets because the Jews should have avowed Christ, which is contrary to God’s word,

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)​

Preterists also believe the Jews should have avowed Christ, and when they didn’t, God took “the kingdom at hand” and gave it to the Church (Matthew 21:43), which is supersessionism. We will show the preterists’ claim to Reformed Theology in this matter is specious and why the futurist’s claim of Arminianism is also fallacious. Any belief that “the kingdom at hand” was modified or unrealized as a result of Israel’s rejection of Christ is open theism.

Supersessionists are predominately Reformed, while futurists are mostly Arminianists; both supposedly believe in God’s meticulous providence. Retired Professor of Theology and numerous other accreditations, John Mark Hicks, expresses the views of Arminianists in a thesis published on the internet,

Arminius’ main interest is to protect God’s faithfulness to his own love by attributing the origin of evil in the world to human freedom so that God is not the author (determinative cause) of sin as well as to protect God’s sovereignty over the created order. On the one hand, Arminius seeks to preserve God’s goodness—to defend God against the charge of evil. On the other hand, he believes that God is specifically responsible for evil acts in the world since God specifically permits each one. God is so sovereign over the creation that God decides whether to permit every specific act of sin. God is meticulously involved in the world though not deterministically.[1]​

The Reformed view maintains a deterministic view of Providence, while the Arminianist holds God reacts to possibilities he foresees. The distinction concerns the human will; the former believes the will of a fallen man is not free from “the law of sin and death,” as expressed in Romans 7-8. At the same time, Arminianists such as Hicks fail to account for Romans 7-8 in their misconception determinism would make God the cause of sin,

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1-4)​

Paul prefaces his thanks for being free “from the law of sin and death” with his rhetorical question, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” in Romans 7:24. Paul answers his question in the next chapter; “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ” freed him from “the law of sin and death.” A proper exegesis of Paul here maintains man is incapable of freeing himself from his fallen nature; Christ must free him. Scripture proves man’s self-determination is not free, which substantiates the Compatibilist’s view of salvation; fallen man is a slave to his sinful flesh, and salvation is a predetermined gift from God,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. (Ephesians 1:3-5)​

​

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) (Ephesians 2:1-5)​

So how can we interpret that God “ordained” the “builders” to reject the cornerstone in the Parable of the Tenants?

When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (Matthew 21:40-44)​

Reformed theologian and adjunct professor at Whitefield Theological Seminary, Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, explains the Reformed’s view on the tenant’s rejection of Christ,

The intention of God in the Gospel in the compound sense to the reprobate is to fill up their sins. God had no intention on saving them and no desire for them to come and be saved in this sense. How can we deny that in this sense? He desired the salvation of the elect, and upon His timing they will be set free, indeed. But the reprobate merely fill up their sins, and harden themselves being devoid of true calling and justifying faith. It is God’s will that they are damned to glorify His justice. They will have no excuses to render Him on judgment day, and even they will know that the Gospel has filled up their sins all the more (they are more condemned for hearing the Gospel and rejecting it) and justly so. Their wicked hearts and wicked dispositions rejected the only means whereby they would have found life. They should have trusted Christ by faith (justifying faith given to them by God). However, God was not pleased to grant it to them. Rather, His purpose for them in the compound sense is to reject salvation, and continue to fill up the measure, the ordained level, of their sin, that they may be rightly judged on the day of the Lord. [2]​

MacMahon uses Jeremiah, where it is written, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked” and that “the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings” (Jeremiah 17:9-10). God did not influence the tenants to disavow Christ; nevertheless, he used the tenants to fulfill his will that they smite Christ so that the sheep would be scattered and the Gospel go out the world,

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (Zechariah 13:7)​

"Who are what people in Revelation"?

I looked for a quote of Revelation and a claim of "People" I didn't find either?

 

[contratodo]

Paul prefaces his thanks for being free “from the law of sin and death” with his rhetorical question, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”

I believe Paul's words at the end of Romans 7 have been twisted, as Peter said would happen 2 Peter 3:15-16.

The surrounding context also makes the correct translation shine through.

for sin shall not have dominion over you Roman 6:14

now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,
you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 6:22

But I see another law in my members warning against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members. So then with the mind
I serve the law of God but with the flesh the law of sin.
Oh wretched man that I am! Who shall save me from this body of death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
has made me free from the law of sin and free from death.

Romans 7:23-25 Romans 8:2



Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it,
why have you made me like this?
Romans 9:20

Yes! It certainly can, because He that formed it gave it a personality, will and consciousness.

Has not the potter power over the clay... to make one lump unto honor
and another unto dishonor?
Romans 9:21

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver,
but also of wood and earth: and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
If a man therefore purge himself of dishonor,
he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and met for the master's use,
and prepared unto every good work.
2 Timothy 2:20-21

How can a man cleanse his way? By taking heed unto the word of God.

For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.



The Creator, pure consciousness that just is and always was, before He created anything at all, chose to die on behalf of His creation.
Looking into that wise plan He saw the physical man Christ and everything associated with Him. Proverbs 8:12,23 Colossians 1:15-17
The Creator set apart a part of His Spirit for the purpose of giving birth to and indwelling Christ.
Then the Creator made water to flow from Himself. Proverbs 8:24 Revelation 22:1
And the Spirit of the Creator was hovering over the water, and He said, let there be light, and there was light....







We are the people in Revelation.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Galatians 3:26-29 ....So if Christians belong to Christ, WE are the issue of Abraham and the heirs of Gods Promises to His peoples.
Also; Isaiah 51:1-2 ....you who follow after righteousness and who seek the Lord in faith, Abraham is your father and Sarah your mother.....

The peoples who do not receive Gods Promises, are those who reject Jesus and follow unrighteousness. Those who rely on their own strength and dismiss their Creator.

​

For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)​

Point is, God has chosen a remnant of the descendants of Jacob to be the inheritors of his promises.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

"Who are what people in Revelation"?

I looked for a quote of Revelation and a claim of "People" I didn't find either?

I looked for a quote in Revelation and claim of “Old Covenant people” and didn’t find either!

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I believe Paul's words at the end of Romans 7 have been twisted, as Peter said would happen 2 Peter 3:15-16.

The surrounding context also makes the correct translation shine through.

for sin shall not have dominion over you Roman 6:14

now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,
you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 6:22

But I see another law in my members warning against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members. So then with the mind
I serve the law of God but with the flesh the law of sin.
Oh wretched man that I am! Who shall save me from this body of death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
has made me free from the law of sin and free from death.

Romans 7:23-25 Romans 8:2



Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it,
why have you made me like this?
Romans 9:20

Yes! It certainly can, because He that formed it gave it a personality, will and consciousness.

Has not the potter power over the clay... to make one lump unto honor
and another unto dishonor?
Romans 9:21

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver,
but also of wood and earth: and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
If a man therefore purge himself of dishonor,
he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and met for the master's use,
and prepared unto every good work.
2 Timothy 2:20-21

How can a man cleanse his way? By taking heed unto the word of God.

For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.



The Creator, pure consciousness that just is and always was, before He created anything at all, chose to die on behalf of His creation.
Looking into that wise plan He saw the physical man Christ and everything associated with Him. Proverbs 8:12,23 Colossians 1:15-17
The Creator set apart a part of His Spirit for the purpose of giving birth to and indwelling Christ.
Then the Creator made water to flow from Himself. Proverbs 8:24 Revelation 22:1
And the Spirit of the Creator was hovering over the water, and He said, let there be light, and there was light....




We are the people in Revelation.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. (Romans 2:14-15)​

Paul isn’t saying that the vessels unto dishonor can’t do good by their personality, will and consciousness. He’s merely saying that they ultimately can’t free themselves from the condemnation of their sins and that they're still slaves to their flesh, which affirms compatibilism. They must be chosen by God and not by their own works to be saved.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). (Ephesians 2:1-5)​

 

[keras]

Point is, God has chosen a remnant of the descendants of Jacob to be the inheritors of his promises.

Yes; Romans 9:27 tells us, and they will join with their Christian brethren. A very small proportion of new citizens of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
They will be so ashamed and repentant, they will not say much. Ezekiel 16:63

My point is that very few Christian Jews live in Israel. Most are in America Isaiah 29:1-4 describes how that small remnant will survive, when the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18
The holy Land will then be repopulated with Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Yes; Romans 9:27 tells us, and they will join with their Christian brethren. A very small proportion of new citizens of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
They will be so ashamed and repentant, they will not say much. Ezekiel 16:63

My point is that very few Christian Jews live in Israel. Most are in America Isaiah 29:1-4 describes how that small remnant will survive, when the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18
The holy Land will then be repopulated with Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107

You infer the Church has no part in the highest and final judgment, in contradiction with the New Testament,

Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?​

Christ said to Sardis that unless they repent, he would come upon them like a thief,

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. (Revelation 3:3)​

Christ tells us in Revelation that the Church is not exempt from the highest and final judgment, insomuch as the motif that Christ comes upon those fallen asleep in church as a thief in the night, on the Day of the Lord,

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (1 Thessalonians 5:2)​

Your rhetoric suggests dispensationalists thinking, that judgment pertains just to Jews and that they must come and join the Gentiles, when Paul affirms the Gentiles are grafted onto Israel, not the other way around. Furthermore, the regrafting of the natural branches began with the apostles in their ministry to the exiles of the dispersion, or the descendants of the northern kingdom,

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (1 Peter 1:1-2 ESV)​

The elect exiles would be the natural branches that had been exiled by the Assyrians hundreds of years prior. The first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, observed that the ten tribes were “beyond Euphrates till now” and were as “an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.” God whistles to Ephriam in Zechariah 10, not to Judah, and that began in the first century; it’s not a future event.

 

[keras]

@Jerryhuerta =
Your posts are too confused and full of wild assertions, for any reply.
Go well in your journey for the truth.