Interesting pov from a Protestant: Why I am not a Catholic

[Michie]

What came to the forefront of my mind is how confusing our witness can be as Catholics in general. It seems those in the Vatican are not doing much in the way of clarification either. What do you think? Do you think he is just mistaken and needs to research more or does he have a point?
**************************


Speaking at the Leonine Forum in D.C. recently, I was asked a friendly but pointed question: “Why are you not a Catholic?” The questioner noted that in my talk I had expressed a love for the early Church Fathers, admiration for Thomas Aquinas, and an approach to ethics that resonated with John Paul II’s theology of the body.

It’s hard to answer such a question in brief compass at the end of a lecture. Many issues are important in my commitment to Reformed Protestantism: authority, salvation, the nature of the ministry, and the significance of sacraments are just a few of the more obvious. And while I am open to the criticism that Protestantism hasn’t given Mary her due, I believe the Catholic Church has given her a significance that is well beyond anything the Bible would countenance. But above all, at the current moment, Catholicism doesn’t appeal to me because of the man at the top: Pope Francis.

In my answer, I did try to be respectful of my audience, but I could not help but observe that the present pope seems to be nothing more than a liberal Protestant in a white papal robe. And as a Protestant, I am acutely aware of the damage such people do.

Continued below.

Why I Am Not Catholic - First Things

Speaking at the Leonine Forum in D.C. recently, I was asked a friendly but pointed question: “Why are you not a Catholic?” The questioner noted that in my talk...

www.firstthings.com

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

"Ironically, the intellectual heft of historic Catholicism and its enviable aesthetic achievements seem to be the very things that the pope regards with indifference. And both of these seem to connect to that telltale sign that always presages trouble in Christian circles: a loss of the transcendent in favor of the immanent."

It seems to me that if this is true, it may be an attempt to correct the opposite imbalance: Loss of the immanent in favor of the transcendent.
Hints of this appeared in the confusion surrounding the issue of blessings for individuals in same-sex relationships. A leader with both a strong grasp of Christian teaching and firm confidence that the teaching is true would never have presided over such a mess. Such a person, rooted in the transcendent, would always fear the wrath of God more than the op-eds of men."

I don't think the Pope is at all concerned with "op-eds of men". Speaking for him I would say that as a pastor he wishes to emphasize welcome, acceptance and love rather than wrath. It is a delicate line to navigate.


"The latest example of this apparent pandering to matters of immanent importance is the pope’s decision to have a special pilgrimage for the LGBTQ community in the 2025 Jubilee Year..."

"Pandering to matters of immanent importance"? I am not sure that framing the gender identity issues in the transcendence/immanence dichotomy is at all helpful. God is both transcendent and immanent at the same time. And basically so are each of us. So we all should be respected as images of God. that does not mean anything goes. We also need to respect our own established moral guidelines and Catholic teaching about humanness and sexuality within it. People are confused these day smore than ever. Like children we need clear guidelines, clear structure. I am talking mainly within the Catholic Church. we cannot control the public debate but we can more clearly represent and articulate our point of view. The above examples do not help do that even though they might help people to be loved and accepted as they are. That is no small accomplishment. We are all loved and accepted as we are. And yet we all have our moral issues and struggles that are part of our spiritual path and journey.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What came to the forefront of my mind is how confusing our witness can be as Catholics in general. It seems those in the Vatican are not doing much in the way of clarification either. What do you think? Do you think he is just mistaken and needs to research more or does he have a point?
**************************


Speaking at the Leonine Forum in D.C. recently, I was asked a friendly but pointed question: “Why are you not a Catholic?” The questioner noted that in my talk I had expressed a love for the early Church Fathers, admiration for Thomas Aquinas, and an approach to ethics that resonated with John Paul II’s theology of the body.

It’s hard to answer such a question in brief compass at the end of a lecture. Many issues are important in my commitment to Reformed Protestantism: authority, salvation, the nature of the ministry, and the significance of sacraments are just a few of the more obvious. And while I am open to the criticism that Protestantism hasn’t given Mary her due, I believe the Catholic Church has given her a significance that is well beyond anything the Bible would countenance. But above all, at the current moment, Catholicism doesn’t appeal to me because of the man at the top: Pope Francis.

In my answer, I did try to be respectful of my audience, but I could not help but observe that the present pope seems to be nothing more than a liberal Protestant in a white papal robe. And as a Protestant, I am acutely aware of the damage such people do.

Continued below.

Why I Am Not Catholic - First Things

Speaking at the Leonine Forum in D.C. recently, I was asked a friendly but pointed question: “Why are you not a Catholic?” The questioner noted that in my talk...

www.firstthings.com

He’s right. The big problem with Catholicism is pope Francis. Not so much Mary or the papacy in general or anything else. It’s one particular guy named Francis. I know of too many people who would be Catholic except for pope Francis.

People should still become Catholics. Just not the sort of Catholics in favor at the Vatican right now. We need evangelicals and traditional Christians to come in and assist in these troubled times. They need to come in and find a completeness that we can offer. It is a proper time to come home, even though pope Francis, especially because of pope Francis needing us to stand up to him for the faith he supposedly represents.

I can’t predict the future. But people like Truman and Mohler have a place with us if we can make that happen. And if they can find the guts. It’s going to be an even wilder ride than it has been.

 

[Michie]

He’s right. The big problem with Catholicism is pope Francis. Not so much Mary or the papacy in general or anything else. It’s one particular guy named Francis. I know of too many people who would be Catholic except for pope Francis.

People should still become Catholics. Just not the sort of Catholics in favor at the Vatican right now. We need evangelicals and traditional Christians to come in and assist in these troubled times. They need to come in and find a completeness that we can offer. It is a proper time to come home, even though pope Francis, especially because of pope Francis needing us to stand up to him for the faith he supposedly represents.

I can’t predict the future. But people like Truman and Mohler have a place with us if we can make that happen. And if they can find the guts. It’s going to be an even wilder ride than it has been.

Well it struck home for me because my mother, who is extremely interested in Catholicism has lost quite a bit of interest in it due to what she reads concerning Pope Francis. She asks me about it but what am I to say? I can only refer her to the teachings of the Church and remind her that not everything he says is binding. There is really nothing I can do to defend some of the things he says or does. And frankly, it’s not really my job. Is it?

 

[Paidiske]

Hmm. I find Pope Francis far more appealing and attractive than any other Pope in my lifetime. I appreciate and value his approach, and am grateful for his contributions to the life of the wider Christian community.

 

[mourningdove~]

Well it struck home for me because my mother, who is extremely interested in Catholicism has lost quite a bit of interest in it due to what she reads concerning Pope Francis. She asks me about it but what am I to say? I can only refer her to the teachings of the Church and remind her that not everything he says is binding. There is really nothing I can do to defend some of the things he says or does. And frankly, it’s not really my job. Is it?

You're in a tough position. But your answer to your Mom is the best one, I think. And living with you, your life is probably the best witness you can give her to the truths of the faith as they are lived out in your daily life.

It really goes against one's sensibilities, to 'join' a church when you find its leadership to be sinful or worldly and you are not and/or are not wanting to be. Some, too, look at the top leadership in a church and see it as the 'fruit' of the church and its teachings. If the 'fruit' doesn't look so good, that can raise many questions for new or returning members.

But I would say the same about any church or ministry ... Catholic or Protestant ... that appears to have corrupt, sinful, or wordly minded top leadership. That is why I think it is often hard for 'PK's" (preacher's kids) to adjust into a church where their Dad is pastor, or where they personally know much of the church leadership. If their Dad (or others) isn't a 'holy' example outside the church with them, they have a hard time accepting as true his 'holy' messages given behind the podium at church. It looks like hypocrisy to them.

Same with persons who go to work in a church environment, where one is exposed day in and out to the pastoral staff. One often learns fairly quickly that not all the staff are 'saints', but just real human beings with struggles like everyone else.

Many of us like to have leadership that we can 'look up to' as role models. When we don't have that in a church ... Catholic or Protestant ... it's just hard to join that church or stay in it. It goes against one's common sense, and desires, to follow leadership that is wonky.

One can argue that one must deny themselves, and their thinking, and just ignore the funky leadership, but really, that's easier said than done for many people. And especially if one is familiar with the words in the Bible, and holds to a traditional interpretation of it.

I don't underestimate the effect the liberal Francis message is probably having in many hearts. As time goes on, it's quite possible that more liberals will be drawn to this 'modernized' Catholic Church. But I think there will always be a traditional 'remnant' that remains, if even in the 'catacombs' below the surface.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I'd never heard of Carl R. Trueman until I read this post. So I went and looked up his bio on Wikipedia.

Carl Trueman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It appears he was born in 1967 which makes him 57 if my basic maths is correct.

Francis has been pope since 2013, so 11 years. This means Mr. Trueman was 46 at the time.

He had 46 years to swmi the Tiber before Francis became Pope, but suddenly Pope Francis is the bogeyman.

But above all, at the current moment, Catholicism doesn’t appeal to me because of the man at the top: Pope Francis.

Paint me cynical.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Well it struck home for me because my mother, who is extremely interested in Catholicism has lost quite a bit of interest in it due to what she reads concerning Pope Francis. She asks me about it but what am I to say? I can only refer her to the teachings of the Church and remind her that not everything he says is binding. There is really nothing I can do to defend some of the things he says or does. And frankly, it’s not really my job. Is it?

Not your job to popesplain, no. Nor mine. I tried it for a while. This mess has really harmed Catholics who right now have nothing to say. "We have a bad pope but you should still become Catholic." Might be true but it sounds lame. It IS true. There are still people becoming Catholic despite pope Francis.

Lets say we are blessed with a new good pope. Miracles do happen.

 

[Michie]

Not your job to popesplain, no. Nor mine. I tried it for a while. This mess has really harmed Catholics who right now have nothing to say. "We have a bad pope but you should still become Catholic." Might be true but it sounds lame. It IS true. There are still people becoming Catholic despite pope Francis.

Lets say we are blessed with a new good pope. Miracles do happen.

All we can do is pray and be the best witness we can in our daily lives.

 

[RileyG]

Hmm. I find Pope Francis far more appealing and attractive than any other Pope in my lifetime. I appreciate and value his approach, and am grateful for his contributions to the life of the wider Christian community.

He seems much friendlier than Pope Benedict, but I think Pope Benedict was very loving and very reserved. Pope Benedict was more of a scholar, while Pope Francis puts more emphasis on the pastoral role, if that makes sense.

 

[RileyG]

He's part of and an ordained pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, so his theology is quite at odds with Catholicism, to put it mildly.

 

[RileyG]

Follow Jesus.

We do.

 

[Michie]

Follow Jesus.

What an ignorant thing to say.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

We are not Catholic because of the Pope. There is a Pope because we are Catholic. We have heard the call of Our Lord and submitted to His authority by obeying His Church.

The way the article reads it seems the man wants to make God subordinate to his tastes, like God is a commodity which we can choose or no.
That is not how it works. God does not submit to us. We deny ourselves and submit to Him.

Did Jesus worry about people that found Him distasteful? No, He let them leave. He looked at Peter and asked, Will you leave me too? Peter said, Lord where else would we go? You have the words of Eternal life.

We need to stop being crybabies about people speaking ill of the Church. Rather we should know blessed are you when they hate you revile you and utter every kind of slander against you because of me. Great is your reward in heaven
The Church will never be popular. Jesus says you will be hated by all men for my name’s sake
Are you shocked this is happening?

Instead of being embarrassed and encouraging our detractors, we need to be like Richard Geere in Officer and a Gentleman. “I got nowhere else to go!!!!”

Church emphasizes Mary too much??? You know that is a lie right ? We cannot speak too well of Our Lady. God tells you who her enemy is. Do you want to align with him?
There is nothing in Church teaching that emphasizes Mary too much. We say with confidence Know Mary, Know Jesus. No Mary? No Jesus. That is not the way we made it like we made up the Catholic Church on our own
Mary has her place by the will of God since before the foundation of the world.
She is immaculately conceived and a perfect reflection of God Himself. Satan hates her more than he hates God
Read Louis De Montfort True devotion to Mary
I will not be embarrassed by her not make excuses for her. She is not a commodity to trade. She is the mother of God and our mother

I don’t like Francis, but so what? He is the Pope and I have to deal with that. Not allow my objections to him permit me to listen to the Church’s detractors.

The detractors are ignorant. They do not know what they are doing. God loves them, yes, He died for everyone, but we do not listen to them or pay them heed. We are not ignorant. We have the fullness of truth in the Church, unless we throw it away

 

[fide]

I'd never heard of Carl R. Trueman until I read this post. So I went and looked up his bio on Wikipedia.

Carl Trueman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It appears he was born in 1967 which makes him 57 if my basic maths is correct.

Francis has been pope since 2013, so 11 years. This means Mr. Trueman was 46 at the time.

He had 46 years to swmi the Tiber before Francis became Pope, but suddenly Pope Francis is the bogeyman.


Paint me cynical.

I am much more firmly grounded in Catholic doctrine and Tradition than I was 11 years ago, and I think that much credit for that is account of Pope Francis. His careless and ambiguous and often self-contradictory teachings and personal examples motivated me to dive more deeply into the doctrines and traditions, and Holy Scripture, to enable me to more justly evaluate this pope in the light of so many accusations against him. The score was Catholic truth 100%, pope zero. It's not that he always speaks error, it's that his occasional true speech is immediately contradicted by his frequently false actions.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Hmm. I find Pope Francis far more appealing and attractive than any other Pope in my lifetime. I appreciate and value his approach, and am grateful for his contributions to the life of the wider Christian community.

I'd happily trade him. He could become Anglican. Some of your troublesome conservative Anglican bishops could become Catholic. It could be a win-win.

 

[chevyontheriver]

He's part of and an ordained pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, so his theology is quite at odds with Catholicism, to put it mildly.

And yet there is a lot in common too. Probably most of the moral teaching, probably most of the Christological teaching, and I'll bet a lot more. I have a lot more hope of fellowship with a guy like Truman than with a Lutheran (former Catholic) like former VP candidate Walz.

 

[Michie]

"Jesus Tells Disciples to Follow​

Jesus calls ordinary people to follow Him, as seen in the accounts of Matthew 4:18-22, Mark 1:16-20, Luke 5:2-11, and John 1:40-42. He issues a simple yet profound invitation: “Follow Me” (Matthew 4:19, Mark 1:17, Luke 5:27). This call is not limited to the initial selection of the Twelve Apostles but is extended to all who would respond to His message.

The Disciples’ Response​

The four fishermen, Simon Peter, Andrew, James, and John, immediately leave their nets and follow Jesus (Matthew 4:20, Mark 1:18). They are drawn to Him, recognizing His authority and the significance of His mission. This initial response sets the pattern for future discipleship, as Jesus’ followers would leave their old lives behind to follow Him.

The Nature of Discipleship​

Jesus’ call to follow Him implies a deepening relationship with Him, characterized by:

1. Obedience: Following Jesus means submitting to His teachings and commands (Matthew 28:18-20).
2. Imitation: Disciples are to model their lives after Jesus’, demonstrating love, compassion, and humility (John 13:35).
3. Mission: Jesus commissions His followers to spread His message and make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19-20).

The Call Remains​

Jesus’ invitation to follow Him remains open to all who would respond to His message. Today, just as then, He calls individuals to leave their old lives behind and embark on a journey of discipleship, characterized by obedience, imitation, and mission."

Who do you think Catholics worship dude? Yes ignorant and against the rules of the board to imply otherwise. I posted this in OBOB not GT.

 

[FaithT]

Follow Jesus.

Do you think we don’t?

 

[RileyG]

And yet there is a lot in common too. Probably most of the moral teaching, probably most of the Christological teaching, and I'll bet a lot more. I have a lot more hope of fellowship with a guy like Truman than with a Lutheran (former Catholic) like former VP candidate Walz.

Confessional Lutherans such as LCMS or WELS don’t consider the ELCA to be in good standing, which Walz is a part of. I’ve heard that from numerous people online.

You’re right on spot, though!