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RSV Bible

Lukaris

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In the early 1970s there was a pretty complete RSV “Common Bible” issued with the Intertestament books ( a.k.a. Deuterocanon, Apocrypha). It is a good edition if you can get it. It has a plug from late Archbishop Iakavos back in the day.




I was blessed to find it a local public library tent book sale.
 
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YCGP

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In the early 1970s there was a pretty complete RSV “Common Bible” issued with the Intertestament books ( a.k.a. Deuterocanon, Apocrypha). It is a good edition if you can get it. It has a plug from late Archbishop Iakavos back in the day.




I was blessed to find it a local public library tent book sale.
Thank you.

What's the perspective of the Orthodox Church on using Douay-Rheims?
 
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Lukaris

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Thank you.

What's the perspective of the Orthodox Church on using Douay-Rheims?
Fr John Whiteford says it is basically ok.


Per Fr John:

The Douay Rheims Version

I must say that the Douay Rheims is not a version I have or probably ever will use a primary translation for personal study, however, I know many Orthodox who do. The text is certainly acceptable, and has the advantage of using traditional English, and having the Deuterocanonical books. It is at times awkward, and it uses terminology that is unfamiliar to most English speakers. It is a version worthy of consultation, when comparing various translations.




General search info on Fr John.


 
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The Liturgist

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Fr John Whiteford says it is basically ok.


Per Fr John:

The Douay Rheims Version

I must say that the Douay Rheims is not a version I have or probably ever will use a primary translation for personal study, however, I know many Orthodox who do. The text is certainly acceptable, and has the advantage of using traditional English, and having the Deuterocanonical books. It is at times awkward, and it uses terminology that is unfamiliar to most English speakers. It is a version worthy of consultation, when comparing various translations.




General search info on Fr John.



I am blessed to count Fr. John Whiteford as a personal friend.
 
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AveChristusRex

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Fr John Whiteford says it is basically ok.


Per Fr John:

The Douay Rheims Version

I must say that the Douay Rheims is not a version I have or probably ever will use a primary translation for personal study, however, I know many Orthodox who do. The text is certainly acceptable, and has the advantage of using traditional English, and having the Deuterocanonical books. It is at times awkward, and it uses terminology that is unfamiliar to most English speakers. It is a version worthy of consultation, when comparing various translations.
Catholic here! I go to an Eastern Orthodox parish, so I know the looks one may get for pulling out the Biblia Sacra instead of the Orthodox Study Bible, ESV, etc. I'll spare you the usual reasons why the Douay-Rheims is the only Bible translation worth a hoot, but I will say that it trumps the Orthodox Study Bible by a mile, and I wouldn't use it if given a choice between a KJV or OSB. I personally never use any translation but the Douay-Rheims, as it was translated with scrupulous accuracy from the Vulgate of St. Jerome, and was used universally in the Catholic Church (Latin Rite) for over 1500 years. The Vulgate was proclaimed “authentic” by the Council of Trent in 1546, who proclaimed: “No one [may] dare or presume under any pretext whatsoever to reject it.” (4th Ses., April 8, 1546). Pope Pius XII declared that this [the Vulgate, and subsequently, the Douay-Rheims] means it is “free from any error whatsoever in matters of faith and morals.” (1943); moreover stating that it was free from all errors and SUPERIOR to all vernaculars and that all vernacular translations must use the Vulgate as their basis.

Though I do not pull the EENS ('extra Ecclesiam nulla salus,' i.e., no salvation outside the Church) card very often, but if the Catholic [and Orthodox Church ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia] Church is the One, True, Church; and because the Greek and Hebrew were written by individuals who did not pertain to Catholic principles, we cannot trust these translations to provide the fullness of the Magisterial Appeal, though they are not entirely out of the picture for use. The Vulgate is superior to Hebrew and Greek for these reasons. Furthermore, in terms of philology and theological study, I use the Anno Domini 1609 Douay-Rheims, which I have in a three-volume copy and was incredibly hard to find. I use it because it is the scantron of the original parchment and thus proclaims the same infallible truth as Pius XII spoke of. It is hard to read, though, so if I am doing the Divine Office, I use the Douay-Rheims Challoner Version (CV) with the Vulgate side-by-side. :crosseo:
 
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Lukaris

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Catholic here! I go to an Eastern Orthodox parish, so I know the looks one may get for pulling out the Biblia Sacra instead of the Orthodox Study Bible, ESV, etc. I'll spare you the usual reasons why the Douay-Rheims is the only Bible translation worth a hoot, but I will say that it trumps the Orthodox Study Bible by a mile, and I wouldn't use it if given a choice between a KJV or OSB. I personally never use any translation but the Douay-Rheims, as it was translated with scrupulous accuracy from the Vulgate of St. Jerome, and was used universally in the Catholic Church (Latin Rite) for over 1500 years. The Vulgate was proclaimed “authentic” by the Council of Trent in 1546, who proclaimed: “No one [may] dare or presume under any pretext whatsoever to reject it.” (4th Ses., April 8, 1546). Pope Pius XII declared that this [the Vulgate, and subsequently, the Douay-Rheims] means it is “free from any error whatsoever in matters of faith and morals.” (1943); moreover stating that it was free from all errors and SUPERIOR to all vernaculars and that all vernacular translations must use the Vulgate as their basis.

Though I do not pull the EENS ('extra Ecclesiam nulla salus,' i.e., no salvation outside the Church) card very often, but if the Catholic [and Orthodox Church ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia] Church is the One, True, Church; and because the Greek and Hebrew were written by individuals who did not pertain to Catholic principles, we cannot trust these translations to provide the fullness of the Magisterial Appeal, though they are not entirely out of the picture for use. The Vulgate is superior to Hebrew and Greek for these reasons. Furthermore, in terms of philology and theological study, I use the Anno Domini 1609 Douay-Rheims, which I have in a three-volume copy and was incredibly hard to find. I use it because it is the scantron of the original parchment and thus proclaims the same infallible truth as Pius XII spoke of. It is hard to read, though, so if I am doing the Divine Office, I use the Douay-Rheims Challoner Version (CV) with the Vulgate side-by-side. :crosseo:
Personally, I have no problem with any of the versions you mention. Your overall assessment seems similar to the KJV only rationale. I believe the Orthodox Study Bible, the King James, and Duoay Rheims ( & some others) are all fine.

Probably if the Wycliffe Bible of the late 14th century been given better treatment, there might have been less problems with later English Bible translations. Whatever his shortcomings, it doesn’t seem like Wycliffe had any intentions for his translation to be used for rebellion like the Peasant revolt.


 
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AveChristusRex

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Personally, I have no problem with any of the versions you mention. Your overall assessment seems similar to the KJV only rationale. I believe the Orthodox Study Bible, the King James, and Duoay Rheims ( & some others) are all fine.

Probably if the Wycliffe Bible of the late 14th century been given better treatment, there might have been less problems with later English Bible translations. Whatever his shortcomings, it doesn’t seem like Wycliffe had any intentions for his translation to be used for rebellion like the Peasant revolt.
That's a fair position! :heart:; I personally don't see much use of Scripture not directly translated from the Vulgate and [by proxy] the Douay-Rheims. But I will never tell you you are wrong, we have different preferences based on our acceptance of different Councils!

As for the Wycliffe Bible, Cardinal Gasquet, I think, put it best when he said that there is no convincing material that connected the EV and the LV to Wycliffe and his circle; Wycliffe had never mentioned a translation effort, and his endorsements of the vernacular came towards the end of his life only. Moreover, Gasquet saw from a Catholic doctrinal perspective and found no translation errors that could have made the scriptural parts heretical; though the pamphlet Four and Twenty Books attached to a few of the manuscripts [and treated in later versions/decades as a General Prologue to the Wycliffe Bible] did have some unorthodox/erroneous content, however that content did not seem to contain the specific errors that were later (1458) deemed heretical, suggesting that the General Prologue had been added later and evolved to fit reformed ideals.

Regardless, I abide by the Council of Constance (1415), which said: “that [Wycliffe’s] body and bones are to be exhumed, if they can be identified among the corpses of the faithful, and to be scattered far from a burial place of the church, in accordance with canonical and lawful sanctions.” Though I note that apart from Bp. Arundel’s Consititutions and King Henry IVs De Hoeretico Comburendo, neither the Council of Constantance nor other texts explicitly condemn the act of vernacular translation, but did condemn Wycliffite errors. I also note that though the Council of Toulouse (1229) forbade lay people from reading vernacular translations of the Bible, the Council was only a local council held by a local church, not an ecumenical council possessing binding authority over the entire Church. Moreover, the Douay-Rheims is officially approved by the Church as stated above, while Wycliffe's is not; so while I respect the attempt of whoever authored the manuscript to directly translate the Vulgate, which can be seen here [...]:

Vulgate – LatinWycliffian EV – Middle English
"Dixitque Deus fiat lux et facta est lux""And God seıde, Be maad lıȝt; and maad is lıȝt"

[...] I do not see a reason for it to be anywhere equivocal to the Douay-Rheims. As for the other translations, they have their own separate problems, but for usage in Orthodox circles, id say the Vulgate's approval direct translation is the best of the best. :crossrc:
 
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AveChristusRex

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Thank you.

What's the perspective of the Orthodox Church on using Douay-Rheims?
If you wish to know more on the Douay-Rheims, feel free to ask! I also suggest this video:
 
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prodromos

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Catholic here! I go to an Eastern Orthodox parish, so I know the looks one may get for pulling out the Biblia Sacra instead of the Orthodox Study Bible, ESV, etc. I'll spare you the usual reasons why the Douay-Rheims is the only Bible translation worth a hoot, but I will say that it trumps the Orthodox Study Bible by a mile, and I wouldn't use it if given a choice between a KJV or OSB. I personally never use any translation but the Douay-Rheims, as it was translated with scrupulous accuracy from the Vulgate of St. Jerome, and was used universally in the Catholic Church (Latin Rite) for over 1500 years. The Vulgate was proclaimed “authentic” by the Council of Trent in 1546, who proclaimed: “No one [may] dare or presume under any pretext whatsoever to reject it.” (4th Ses., April 8, 1546). Pope Pius XII declared that this [the Vulgate, and subsequently, the Douay-Rheims] means it is “free from any error whatsoever in matters of faith and morals.” (1943); moreover stating that it was free from all errors and SUPERIOR to all vernaculars and that all vernacular translations must use the Vulgate as their basis.

Though I do not pull the EENS ('extra Ecclesiam nulla salus,' i.e., no salvation outside the Church) card very often, but if the Catholic [and Orthodox Church ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia] Church is the One, True, Church; and because the Greek and Hebrew were written by individuals who did not pertain to Catholic principles, we cannot trust these translations to provide the fullness of the Magisterial Appeal, though they are not entirely out of the picture for use. The Vulgate is superior to Hebrew and Greek for these reasons. Furthermore, in terms of philology and theological study, I use the Anno Domini 1609 Douay-Rheims, which I have in a three-volume copy and was incredibly hard to find. I use it because it is the scantron of the original parchment and thus proclaims the same infallible truth as Pius XII spoke of. It is hard to read, though, so if I am doing the Divine Office, I use the Douay-Rheims Challoner Version (CV) with the Vulgate side-by-side. :crosseo:
Since Latin has one quarter of the vocabulary of Greek, I would consider any translation based on the Vulgate to be inferior to translations from the Greek.
 
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prodromos

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The Liturgist

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Since Latin has one quarter of the vocabulary of Greek, I would consider any translation based on the Vulgate to be inferior to translations from the Greek.

Indeed. I don’t know of another language as expressive or nuanced as Greek. For example, consider the depth of meaning in just two words, both of which are of extreme importance to Christianity, Logos and Prosopon. There is an enormous loss of context when we translate these as Word and Person - it is an accurate translation, but it feels inadequate.

Also the New Testament really comes alive in its Christian glory when encountered in the original Greek, where one encounters words such as εὐχάριστος, ἐκκλησίᾳ, ἐπισκόπους and others which form the basis of the Christian theological vocabulary even in Latin, where they exist as loanwords.

+

The most interesting languages for Christian scholarship, based chiefly on the amount of relevant and untranslated material, are Greek, Aramaic (including Classical Syriac, due to the works of the Syriac speaking fathers), and Classical Armenian, and Ge’ez, due to the very large number of untranslated texts found in them. Hebrew and Coptic seem to have adequate numbers of scholars and in particular as far as Coptic is concerned I think most things of interest have been translated, since this language was only a literary language of Christian thought for around 600 years between the first large scale translations of the Bible and the Divine Liturgy under St. Cyril the Great, and the suppression of the language in favor of Arabic. It would be good to see more scholars tackle the wealth of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox material (and Maronite and other Catholic material) written in different Arabic dialects, however, and also there is a substantial amount of Eastern Orthodox material in Romanian, Georgian, Church Slavonic (including Old Church Slavonic) and the vernacular Slavic languages, and even Albanian, Finnish, and perhaps Estonian and the Baltic languages.
 
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The Liturgist

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In addition, Greek lends itself, more than any other language, to neologism, in that one can combine certain Greek words like building blocks, but unlike in German, where this tends to result in massive words that in English would be expressed as phrases with greater elegance (compare the Wagnerian concept Gesamtkunstwerk with “A total work of art” - the only definite and incontrovertible advantage to using the Hochdeutsche is the ability to communicate more efficiently with fellow enthusiasts of grand Opera and Wagnerian dramatic principles which would later prove so useful in epic cinema). Whereas Greek neologisms tend to be more than the sum of their parts.

And we continue, or at least continued, in this tradition in fields such as medicine into the late 20th century. I myself have coined a few Greek words for my own private correspondence, such as heresiogenic to refer to material with the propensity to scandalize and provoke heretical misinterpretations, and apognostomy, to refer to the loss of context and meaning when translating from Greek to a less expressive tongue such as modern English (which has only become still less expressive as time marches on, with the loss of the second personal pronoun in recent editions of the Bible and the Roman Rite liturgy).

When combined with the theological liberalism Pope Benedict XVI, memory eternal, tried unsuccessfully to eradicate, this resulted in Καὶ μετὰ τοῦ πνεύματός σου being grossly mistranslated “and also with you” that spread like a virus, thanks to ICEL, from the deeply flawed 1969 English language version of the Roman Missal to the other mainline Protestant liturgies, where it remains common despite having been eradicated from the Roman mass in favor of the inadequate but not grossly inaccurate translation “and with your Spirit” by Pope Benedict XVI, a perfectly reasonable act which, in a demonstration of the lack of dissimilarity betwixt Roman Catholicism and Mainline Protestantism, several liberal bishops came out of the woodwork to oppose, along with the rest of the 2010 edition of the Novus Ordo Missae. “And also with you” is erroneous, although not heresiogenic, but even “And with Thy spirit” is an example of apognostomy.
 
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AveChristusRex

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Since Latin has one quarter of the vocabulary of Greek, I would consider any translation based on the Vulgate to be inferior to translations from the Greek.
Of course, with all the respect [and :heart:] in the world, I wholeheartedly disagree. St. Jerome [who you all recognize as a saint] compiled the Vulgate from sources no longer in existence, and with its acceptance as being infallible (“No one [may] dare or presume under any pretext whatsoever to reject it”) and perfect (“free from any error whatsoever in matters of faith and morals”), it would be a violation of the Catholic Faith to recognize any source except the Vulgate. Moreover, as I stated prior, because the Greek and Hebrew were written by individuals who did not pertain to Catholic principles, we cannot trust these translations to provide the fullness of the Magisterial Appeal. However, they are not entirely out of the picture for use. The Vulgate is superior to Hebrew and Greek for these reasons.
 
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AveChristusRex

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Two points are made here:
  1. The Douay-Rheims is "not free from protestant bias;" and,
  2. The Vulgate does not supersede the original texts.
Let me respond to both of these. First, "the Douay Rheims was revised from 1749–1752 by Bishop Richard Challoner, who corrected it according to the Clementine edition of the Vulgate (published by Clement VIII in 1592, after the Rheims New Testament) and the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. He also updated the spelling, vocabulary, and sentence structure. Today, all Douay-Rheims Bibles in print are actually the Douay-Rheims-Challoner version." Well, the Challoner is really a non sequitur [i.e. a statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it], because of its use of the KJV as its source text rather than solely using the Vulgate; this is directly condemned in the precafe of the to the Douay-Rheims, and thus speaks to the same effect: “Now since Luther and his followers have pretended that the Catholic Roman faith and doctrine should be contrary to God’s written word, and that the Scriptures were not suffered in vulgar languages, lest the people should see the truth, and withal these new masters corruptly turning the Scriptures into diverse tongues, as might best serve their own opinions, against this false suggestion and practice, Catholic pastors have, for one especial remedy, set forth true and sincere translations in most languages of the Latin Church.”

Bp. Challoner's work, though titled The Douay-Rheims, was allowed to circulate in England and its colonies because it used the KJV as its source text. The real Douay-Rheims—the original and true-to-life version—vanished, to be found only in museums and literary collections. To that degree, the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1909 A.D. states: “Although the Bibles in use at the present day by the Catholics of England and Ireland are popularly styled the Douay Version, they are most improperly so called; they are founded, with more or less alteration, on a series of revisions undertaken by Bishop Challoner in 1749-52 . . . The changes introduced by him were so considerable that, according to Cardinal Newman, they almost amounted to a new translation. So, also, Cardinal Wiseman wrote, ‘To call it any longer the Douay or Rheimish Version is an abuse of terms. It has been altered and modified until scarcely any verse remains as it was originally published.’ In nearly every case Challoner’s changes took the form of approximating to the Authorized Version [King James]. . .”

The same issue exists with the “Haydock Douay-Rheims Bible,” as it is another Challoner variation. The 1909 Catholic Encyclopedia under the subject “Haydock, George Leo” has this to say concerning the “Haydock Bible” now being erroneously sold as the Douay-Rheims: "Father Haydock’s chief publication was a new edition of the English translation of the Latin Vulgate first published at Reims in 1582, and at Douai in 1609; Bishop Challoner’s text of 1750 was the basis of the work, but in the New Testament Dr. Troy’s edition of 1794 is largely followed. The notes are partly original, partly selected from other writers, those on the New Testament not having been compiled by Father Haydock. The edition appeared in Manchester, 1812- 14; Dublin, 1812-13; Edinburgh and Dublin, 1845-8; New York, 1852-6."

The "Troy Edition" Newman is referencing is defined in the July, 1859 “Rambler” article entitled “The History of the Text of the Rheims and Douay Version of Holy Scripture.” Wherein he states: "§3. Dr. Troy’s Bible: “…The revisor was the Rev. Bernard Macmahon, a Dublin priest, who published his first edition in 1783, in 12mo, with the formal approbation of his Archbishop, Dr. Carpenter. There is reason for supposing that it professed to be a continuation of Dr. Challoner’s labours & eight years afterwards, in 1791, the same clergyman was selected by Dr. Troy, his then Archbishop, to superintend an edition…We doubtwhether he is further from the Protestant version than Dr. Challoner.”" Finally, Newman in his July 1859 “Rambler” article, stated: “We must not conclude this enumeration of revisions and reprints of the Rheims and Douay, … which were published … without direct episcopal sanction… This is Haydock’s Bible…[T]he respective publishers, were printers; but the editor and annotator employed by the former was his own brother, who was a priest, the Rev. George Haydock, to whom the edition owes its celebrity.” So, we can clearly see:
  1. Challoner's work is an approximation of the KJV,
  2. Haydock's Douay-Rheims is a Challoner-based KJV translation,
  3. But not only is it the Challoner version, but the New Testament is largely the Troy version of 1794,
  4. The notes for the New Testament are NOT his notes.
  5. It was not given direct episcopal sanction like Challoner or Troy.
Here are a few of the many examples that clearly illustrate the fact that Challoner's work is an approximation of the KJV:

VerseLatin Vulgate1582 RheimsChalloner & Haydock
I Regum 12:3 (1 Samuel 12:3)Loquimini de me coram Domino et coram christo eius...Speak of me before our Lord, and before his Christ,Speak of me before the Lord, and before his anointed,
I Regum 12:3 (1 Samuel 12:5)Dixitque ad eos testis Dominus adversus vos et testis christus eius in die hac...And he said to them: Witness is our Lord against you, and witness is his Christ in this day, …And he said to them: The Lord is witness against you, and his anointed is witness this day, …
Psalmi (Psalm) 131:10Propter David servum tuum ne avertas faciem christi tui.For David thy servants sake turn not away the face of thy Christ.For thy servant David’s sake, turn not away the face of thy anointed.
Psalmi (Psalm) 131:17Ibi oriri faciam cornu David paravi lucernam christo meo.Thither will I bring fourth a horn to David, I have prepared a lamp to my Christ.There will I bring forth a horn to David: I have prepared a lamp for my anointed.
Isaias 64:10Civitas sancti tui facta est deserta Sion deserta facta est Hierusalem desolata...The city of thy holy one is made desert, Sion is made desert, Jerusalem is become desolate.The city of thy sanctuary is become a desert, Sion is made a desert, Jerusalem is desolate.
KJV removed 'christus' and its parsings from: I K. 2:10; 2:35; 12:3; 12:5; 16:6; II K. 22:51; II Par. 6:42; Ps. 2:2; 17:51; 19:7; 83:10; 88:39; 88:52; 131:10; 131:17; Is. 45:1; Lam. 4:20; Hab. 3:13; Acts 4:33; 10:48; 28:31; Rom. 3:26;4: 24; 8:35; 10:17; I Cor. 2:1; 4:16; 5:5; II Cor. 5:15; 11:4; Gal. 4:31; Eph. 5:21; 5:29; Col. 3:15; 3:17; I Thes. 4:17; Heb. 10:19; 13:20; I Pet. 3:15; Jude 24, 25; Apocalypse 11:15-19.

Here is a comparison of nine different Bible versions:

King James verseDouay-Rheims verseSeptuagint 270 B.C.Vulgate 385 A.D.Gutenberg 1455Luther’s German 1534Douay-Rheims 1609King James 1611Challoner 1750Revised Standard 1952Confraternity Version 1961
I Sam 2:10I Kings 2:10cristouChristiCriGesalbtenChristAnointedChristanointedChrist
I Sam 2:35I Kings 2:35cristouChristoCroGesalbtenChristAnointedanointedAnointedanointed
I Sam 12:3I Kings 12:3cristouChristoCroGesalbtenChristAnointedanointedAnointedanointed
I Sam 12:5I Kings 12:5cristosChristusCroGesalbtenChristAnointedanointedAnointedanointed
I Sam 16:6I Kings 16:6cristosChristusCroGesalbtenChristanointedanointedAnointedanointed
II Sam 22:51II Kings 22:51χριστωchristocristoGesalbtenChristAnointedanointedAnointedanointed
II Sam 23:1II Kings 23:1χριστονchristoCroMessiasChristAnointedChristAnointedChrist
II Chr 6:42IV Kings 6:42cristouChristicristiGesalbtenChristanointedanointedAnointedanointed
Ps 2:2Ps 2:2cristouChristumcristuGesalbtenChristanointedChristAnointedanointed
Ps 17:51Ps 18:50ΧριστωChristocristoGesalbtenChristAnointedanointedAnointedanointed
Ps 20:6Ps 19:7cristonChristumcristumGesalbtenCHRISTAnointedanointedAnointedanointed
Ps 84:9Ps 88:39cristonChristumcristiGesalbtenChristanointedanointedAnointedanointed
Ps 89:51Ps 88:52cristouChristicristumGesalbtenChristanointedanointedAnointedanointed
Ps 132:10Ps 131:10χριστουChristicristiGesalbtenChristAnointedanointedAnointedanointed
Ps 132:17Ps 131:17χριστωChristocristoGesalbtenChristAnointedanointedAnointedanointed
Isa 45:1Isa 45:1χριστωChristocristoGesalbtenChristAnointedanointedAnointedanointed
Lam 4:20Lam 4:20cristosChristuscristGesalbtenChristanointedChristAnointedanointed
Dan 9:25Dan 9:25cristouChristumcristuChristumChristMessiahChristAn anointed oneone who is anointed
Dan 9:26Dan 9:26crismaChristumcristChristusChristMessiahChristAn anointed onean anointed
Hab. 3:13Hab 3:13cristousChristochristoGesalbtenChristAnointedChristAnointedanointed

It appears as if they do not have the same meanings in the verse, as it gives them up for more interpretation in some editions, while those of the Vulgate state it is a prophecy for Christ specifically. I'll stop there, but I will quote the Rt. Rev. Henry Graham's 'Where We Got the Bible': “…At a single leap we thus arrive at that great work, completed by the greatest scholar of his day, who had access to manuscripts and authorities that have now perished, and who, living so near the days of the Apostles, and, as it were, close to the very fountain-head, was able to produce a copy of the inspired writings which, for correctness, can never be equaled.” The second point is that the Vulgate is not superior to Greek or Hebrew, which I originally responded to in my first message on this thread.

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AveChristusRex

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Next, Atkin argues semantics, saying, "There was a time when the Vulgate could be described as an “official” translation of Scripture for the Latin rite of the Church, but not the whole Church." This is a rejection of the tradition, which is denounced in the Second Degree of the Fourth Session of the Council of Trent: "Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall, in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church, whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures, hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established." (4th Ses., April 8, 1546)

Clearly, it states that the Church "hath held and doth hold" forever that the interpretation relayed in the council therein is authoritative, and those who are contrary to the authoritative legislation that the Church has [and always will] hold the Vulgate to be superior to Greek and Hebrew are not only against the holy mother Church, but anathema per the first decree. Atkins, by speaking contrary to the Vulgate as the authoritative text of the Church, is by the understanding of the Council writing something that detracts from the Vulgate and libel against it. This is condemned: "...by which the words and sentences of sacred Scripture are turned and twisted to all sorts of profane uses, to wit, to things scurrilous, fabulous, vain, to flatteries, detractions, superstitions, impious and diabolical incantations, sorceries, and defamatory libels; (the Synod) commands and enjoins, for the doing away with this kind of irreverence and contempt, and that no one may hence forth dare in any way to apply the words of sacred Scripture to these and such like purposes; that all men of this description, profaners and violators of the word of God, be by the bishops restrained by the penalties of law, and others of their own appointment."

Second, Atkins also states that Pius XII's Divino Afflante Spiritu (#21) allows other translations to supersede the Vulgate; this is plainly false; the Church’s teaching on the authority of the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible does not prohibit the use of original biblical languages and an examination of textual variants to confirm the Vulgate, as stated in Divino Afflante Spiritu (#22): “Wherefore this authority of the Vulgate in matters of doctrine by no means prevents - nay rather today it almost demands - either the corroboration and confirmation of this same doctrine by the original texts or the having recourse on any and every occasion to the aid of these same texts, by which the correct meaning of the Sacred Letters is everywhere daily made more clear and evident. Nor is it forbidden by the decree of the Council of Trent to make translations into the vulgar tongue, even directly from the original texts themselves, for the use and benefit of the faithful and for the better understanding of the divine word…” (Pope Pius XII, Divino Afflante Spiritu #22, Sept. 30, 1943).

Pius states that the authority of the Vulgate is not being questioned, and an examination of textual variants will corroborate and confirm the Vulgate. Not only this, he out-and-out states that the original texts make the authority of the Vulgate clear and evident. Moreover, Pius doesn't directly state to forgo the Vulgate in using other source texts, but he adds on to the previous declaration [through the conjunction 'nor'] that Trent does not condemn the usage of other texts for the confirmation of the Vulgate, but, again, the original texts make the authority of the Vulgate clear and evident. Pius himself says in #21: "Hence this special authority or as they say, authenticity of the Vulgate was not affirmed by the Council particularly for critical reasons, but rather because of its legitimate use in the Churches throughout so many centuries; by which use indeed the same is shown, in the sense in which the Church has understood and understands it, to be free from any error whatsoever in matters of faith and morals; so that, as the Church herself testifies and affirms, it may be quoted safely and without fear of error in disputations, in lectures and in preaching; and so its authenticity is not specified primarily as critical, but rather as juridical." Clearly, the Vulgate is inerrant, and it is preferrable to all other source texts: "the same Council rightly declared to be preferable that which "had been approved by its long-continued use for so many centuries in the Church.""

I think what many misunderstand is that the Douay-Rheims is NOT a typical translation where the translator rearranges the words and meanings, but a 'slavish' [i.e., an exact translation without liberties from the Latin into English]. The reader thereby has an exact understanding of what the original Latin says, rather than interpretations and interpolations. This is different than what Pius is speaking on, as Pius is speaking on the matter of translations using the Vulgate as its source text above others, and not a direct translation of the Vulgate itself, which only the Douay-Rheims can purport.
Indeed. I don’t know of another language as expressive or nuanced as Greek. For example, consider the depth of meaning in just two words, both of which are of extreme importance to Christianity, Logos and Prosopon. There is an enormous loss of context when we translate these as Word and Person - it is an accurate translation, but it feels inadequate.
If you look at the Latin (and original Greek) of the New Testament, it's very simple Greek, with simple syntax and vocabulary. St. Jerome maintained this same spirit with the Vulgate rendering. Our Lord taught in a very simple manner, He never taught like St. Paul tried once at the Athenian agora to produce a great work of oratory (like a Cicero or Demosthenes). Thus, regardless of the Latin vs Greek vocabulary, the Vulgate sticks its ground in my view.

Lastly, I wanted to quote Pope Leo XIII's Providentissimus Deus on the matter of Scripture: "In order that all these endeavours and exertions may really prove advantageous to the cause of the Bible, let scholars keep steadfastly to the principles which We have in this Letter laid down. Let them loyally hold that God, the Creator and Ruler of all things, is also the Author of the Scriptures - and that therefore nothing can be proved either by physical science or archaeology which can really contradict the Scriptures. If, then, apparent contradiction be met with, every effort should be made to remove it. Judicious theologians and commentators should be consulted as to what is the true or most probable meaning of the passage in discussion, and the hostile arguments should be carefully weighed. Even if the difficulty is after all not cleared up and the discrepancy seems to remain, the contest must not be abandoned; truth cannot contradict truth, and we may be sure that some mistake has been made either in the interpretation of the sacred words, or in the polemical discussion itself; and if no such mistake can be detected, we must then suspend judgment for the time being." This is very important, as Leo says that if the interpretation of Scripture is without error, then there is no reason to correct it or do any such thing with it, because truth cannot contradict truth.

He also says this: "These are the words of the last: "The Books of the Old and New Testament, whole and entire, with all their parts, as enumerated in the decree of the same Council (Trent) and in the ancient Latin Vulgate, are to be received as sacred and canonical. And the Church holds them as sacred and canonical, not because, having been composed by human industry, they were afterwards approved by her authority; nor only because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author." Hence, because the Holy Ghost employed men as His instruments, we cannot therefore say that it was these inspired instruments who, perchance, have fallen into error, and not the primary author. For, by supernatural power, He so moved and impelled them to write -- He was so present to them -- that the things which He ordered, and those only, they, first, rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write down, and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth. Otherwise, it could not be said that He was the Author of the entire Scripture. Such has always been the persuasion of the Fathers." He quotes the First Vatican Council, stating that the "Books of the Old and New Testament" in the ancient Latin Vulgate are to be received as sacred. And thus, 'because the Holy Ghost employed men as His instruments, we cannot therefore say that it was these inspired instruments who, perchance, have fallen into error, and not the primary author.'

If, as stated by Trent and Vatican I, that the Latin Vulgate is not only perfect, but the only stated reception of sacred and canonical Scripture, then, per Leo XIII [and Pius XII, who issued Divino Afflante Spiritu in commemoration of Providentissimus Deus] sacred scripture cannot be re-translated, as there is no error to correct. Moreover, because the Douay-Rheims is the only direct translation of the Vulgate itself, rather than a translation using the Vulgate as its source text above others, it carries that authoritative right on itself, therefore saying that there is no reason to either reject the Douay-Rheims or to make a translation contrary to the Douay-Rheims, as truth cannot contradict truth.:crossrc:

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Personally, I have no problem with any of the versions you mention. Your overall assessment seems similar to the KJV only rationale. I believe the Orthodox Study Bible, the King James, and Duoay Rheims ( & some others) are all fine.

Probably if the Wycliffe Bible of the late 14th century been given better treatment, there might have been less problems with later English Bible translations. Whatever his shortcomings, it doesn’t seem like Wycliffe had any intentions for his translation to be used for rebellion like the Peasant revolt.


I’m not Orthodox, but I find the DR Bible very beautiful, but sometimes hard to read.
 
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