VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

While you hold to such unbiblical nonsense. you will never get to the truth. Only as Judgment and testing falls upon you, will understanding come. Isaiah 35:5

While you hold to such unbiblical nonsense. you will never get to the truth. Only as Judgment and testing falls upon you, will understanding come. Isaiah 35:5

What is “paradise” in the verse below?

Luke 23:43 (NIV):
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Where is the post-death Lazarus in the verse below?

Luke 16:22-23 (NIV): … The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Lazarus died yet he’s beside Abraham in Luke 16:23. He will be pre-Trib raptured as one of the “dead in Christ.”

 

[keras]

What is “paradise” in the verse below?

Luke 23:43 (NIV):
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Jesus forgave his sins and said; that as from today, you place is assured in the glorious Kingdom, as your name is now inscribed into the Book of Life. That man will rise along with everyone who has ever lived to stand before God in Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

Lazarus died yet he’s beside Abraham in Luke 16:23. He will be pre-Trib raptured as one of the “dead in Christ.”

I repeat: the story of the rich man and Lazarus, is just a homily, told to show how we have only this life to gain our place in the Kingdom.

Your belief of a pre-trib rapture is wrong and you fail to prove it with any definitive scripture. The is ample scripture to prove the rapture to heaven wrong and how we will be on earth when Jesus Returns.

 

[Oseas]

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

At midnight (from the sixth to the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last GOD's Day) there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. Matthew 25:6-7.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jesus forgave his sins and said; that as from today, you place is assured in the glorious Kingdom, as your name is now inscribed into the Book of Life. That man will rise along with everyone who has ever lived to stand before God in Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

I repeat: the story of the rich man and Lazarus, is just a homily, told to show how we have only this life to gain our place in the Kingdom.

Your belief of a pre-trib rapture is wrong and you fail to prove it with any definitive scripture. The is ample scripture to prove the rapture to heaven, wrong and how we will be on earth when Jesus Returns.

Nothing on those verses even suggest an homily. An homily is mainly what explains a sermon; no sermon precedes these verses. Do you say these verses are false?

Luke 16:19-31 (NIV):
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jesus forgave his sins and said; that as from today, you place is assured in the glorious Kingdom, as your name is now inscribed into the Book of Life. That man will rise along with everyone who has ever lived to stand before God in Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

I repeat: the story of the rich man and Lazarus, is just a homily, told to show how we have only this life to gain our place in the Kingdom.

Your belief of a pre-trib rapture is wrong and you fail to prove it with any definitive scripture. The is ample scripture to prove the rapture to heaven, wrong and how we will be on earth when Jesus Returns.

The rich man, in Hades, was only said to be in Hades. The rich man also made no mention of the lake of fire. Hell is where the lake of fire is. Rev 20:10 (NIV): ... And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, ...

Rev 20:13 (NIV): The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, ----- Why doesn't it say "Hell?" Hell is where unbelievers go AFTER their judgement. Hades is where they are held before their judgment.

Rev 20:14 (NIV): Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ----- Hell is where Hades goes, at the GWTJ.

Hades is no less than next door to Hell or in Hell, but it's not the lake of fire.

2 Cor 12:3 (ESV): And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

Rev 2:7 (ESV): He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

Paradise in Heaven but not all of Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jesus forgave his sins and said; that as from today, you place is assured in the glorious Kingdom, as your name is now inscribed into the Book of Life. That man will rise along with everyone who has ever lived to stand before God in Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

I repeat: the story of the rich man and Lazarus, is just a homily, told to show how we have only this life to gain our place in the Kingdom.

Your belief of a pre-trib rapture is wrong and you fail to prove it with any definitive scripture. The is ample scripture to prove the rapture to heaven wrong and how we will be on earth when Jesus Returns.

Your dodge is to claim Luke 16:19-31 is an homily. It is NOT an homily.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this

NO!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

NO!

Yes. John 14:3 and 1 Th 1:10 fully support it. Let’s discuss those verses.

 

[keras]

Do you say these verses are false?

That story is not depicting an actual event. That is plain from all the rest of scripture, which does not support the idea of communication between Hades and Paradise. Hell and Heaven.

Paradise in Heaven but not all of Heaven.

Paradise, the Garden of Eden was on earth and we are told that the earth will again be a paradise; in the Millennium.

 

[keras]

Yes. John 14:3 and 1 Th 1:10 fully support it. Let’s discuss those verses.

Fully supported? If they did, there would be - the Lord will take His people to heaven, but that is never said anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Douggg]

At midnight (from the sixth to the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last GOD's Day) there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. Matthew 25:6-7.

Get ready"

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That story is not depicting an actual event. That is plain from all the rest of scripture, which does not support the idea of communication between Hades and Paradise. Hell and Heaven.

Paradise, the Garden of Eden was on earth and we are told that the earth will again be a paradise; in the Millennium.

You are calling Luke 16:19-31 false,

Verse 19 starts out with, “There was a rich man ...

Does it say "parable?" No. It's stating FACTS. You're trying to falsify the facts below to keep your false claims real. I believe the Bible; not you.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are calling Luke 16:19-31 false,

Verse 19 starts out with, “There was a rich man ...

Does it say "parable?" No. It's stating FACTS. You're trying to falsify the facts below to keep your false claims real. I believe the Bible; not you.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

You say something like "No one goes to Heaven before the GWTJ." That's falsified by at least these verses: Rev 7:9-17. The GM are in Heaven. The GM is millions of new converts from the Trib.

That story is not depicting an actual event. That is plain from all the rest of scripture, which does not support the idea of communication between Hades and Paradise. Hell and Heaven.

Paradise, the Garden of Eden was on earth and we are told that the earth will again be a paradise; in the Millennium.

Where does it say that the earth will again be a paradise; in the Millennium?

 

[keras]

You say something like "No one goes to Heaven before the GWTJ.

Actually Jesus said it; John 3:13
A clear simple statement that cannot be denied.

Where does it say that the earth will again be a paradise; in the Millennium?

Isaiah 2:2-4, Amos 9:13-15

 

[Oseas]

Get ready"

Yes, get ready. The bridegroom came to the marriage, he is closing the door. Thinking well, to be or not ready what matters now? The command is to go to meet Him, once the door is closed whoever is left outside, there will be no point in crying : Lord, Lord, open to us, the sentence of the punishment is already writing, that is: Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Matthew 25:6-12

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Actually Jesus said it; John 3:13
A clear simple statement that cannot be denied.

Isaiah 2:2-4, Amos 9:13-15

You are calling Luke 16:19-31 false,

Verse 19 starts out with, “There was a rich man ...

Does it say "parable?" No. It's stating FACTS. You're trying to falsify the facts below to keep your false claims real. I believe the Bible; not you.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

I know your dodges: claim the verses are an homily; laugh at them; criticize me for even believing in them; pretend to refute them by citing other verses that have no contextual relationship to the verses I cited; ignore the verses aIl together in the hope that I will not bring them up, again.

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

That verse proves that “those who dwell on the earth” are unbelievers. In this case, they are murderous unbelievers who specifically target new converts in the Trib.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

It’s a simple deduction from there. If Jesus speaks of “those who dwell the earth,” and we are kept from the “hour of trial” to “try those who dwell on the earth,” we are not on the earth during the “hour of trial.”

We are kept from the Trib that is “coming on the whole world.” We are removed from Earth / raptured to Heaven. The supernatural protection God offers in the Trib is specifically stated only for the 144k (sealed servants of God) and the 2W (who are given powers of self-protection).

John 14:3 (KJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

There is specific stress on “there” to accentuate the meaning of “where I am.”

Where is Jesus now? That “where” is where Jesus will “receive you unto myself.”

 

[keras]

John 14:3 (KJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

There is specific stress on “there” to accentuate the meaning of “where I am.”

Where is Jesus now? That “where” is where Jesus will “receive you unto myself.

Do you have a cognisance issue?
John 14:3 says; I will come again......So; where Jesus is now, is in heaven, but He will depart from heaven in order to Return to the earth.
THEN; He will receive His people to Himself and where He will be, there we may be also. In Jerusalem - on the earth.

Trying to make that verse into a rapture removal, is a total failure and just shows the Bible does not support the rapture.
Become a real man of the Word and renounce all false teachings, the Lord will reward those who have the courage to overcome the lies they have been taught.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Do you have a cognisance issue?
John 14:3 says; I will come again......So; where Jesus is now, is in heaven, but He will depart from heaven in order to Return to the earth.
THEN; He will receive His people to Himself and where He will be, there we may be also. In Jerusalem - on the earth.

Trying to make that verse into a rapture removal, is a total failure and just shows the Bible does not support the rapture.
Become a real man of the Word and renounce all false teachings, the Lord will reward those who have the courage to overcome the lies they have been taught.

Do you have a cognisance issue?
John 14:3 says; I will come again......So; where Jesus is now, is in heaven, but He will depart from heaven in order to Return to the earth.
THEN; He will receive His people to Himself and where He will be, there we may be also. In Jerusalem - on the earth.

Trying to make that verse into a rapture removal, is a total failure and just shows the Bible does not support the rapture.
Become a real man of the Word and renounce all false teachings, the Lord will reward those who have the courage to overcome the lies they have been taught.

You are missing the fact that Acts 1:11 precludes Jesus from being seen by any unbelievers in His next return.

You are also ignoring 1 Th 4:17, wherein Jesus does NOT come down to earth. He raptures us up to Him. That is in complete alignment with John 14:3 (NIV): ... I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

That is the rapture. We are raptured to where Jesus is RIGHT NOW: in Heaven. We are raptured to BE WITH Jesus ... "where I am."

Where is Jesus now?

 

[keras]

You are missing the fact that Acts 1:11 precludes Jesus from being seen by any unbelievers in His next return.

Your wrong belief.
Jesus will be seen by every eye when He Returns.

You are also ignoring 1 Th 4:17, wherein Jesus does NOT come down to earth

More wrong belief.
Verse 16 says; Jesus comes down from heaven.......

That is the rapture. We are raptured to where Jesus is RIGHT NOW: in Heaven. We are raptured to BE WITH Jesus ... "where I am."

You are like a child who wants something so much, they just keep repeating their demands which have no substance or likelihood of being fulfilled.
The truth is: We must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:36, Revelation 13:10 & 14:12

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Do you have a cognisance issue?
John 14:3 says; I will come again......So; where Jesus is now, is in heaven, but He will depart from heaven in order to Return to the earth.
THEN; He will receive His people to Himself and where He will be, there we may be also. In Jerusalem - on the earth.

Trying to make that verse into a rapture removal, is a total failure and just shows the Bible does not support the rapture.
Become a real man of the Word and renounce all false teachings, the Lord will reward those who have the courage to overcome the lies they have been taught.

Your wrong belief.
Jesus will be seen by every eye when He Returns.

More wrong belief.
Verse 16 says; Jesus comes down from heaven.......

You are like a child who wants something so much, they just keep repeating their demands which have no substance or likelihood of being fulfilled.
The truth is: We must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:36, Revelation 13:10 & 14:12

Acts 1:9-11 dictate that Jesus will return next for the pre-Trib rapture. He will descend behind clouds into the view of believers only (1 Th 4:16-17). Verse 17 proves Jesus descends behind clouds, and into the view of believers, only. We are raptured to Him. We go to Heaven per John 14:3.