What Does The Existence of Sin Teach Us About God's Character?

[BNR32FAN]

That is a hug mistake because everyone knows that the source of free will was God, not Satan, not Eve, not Adam.

That idea is another form of "blame God"

That’s an outrageous claim. How do you blame God for giving you the free will to choose either to obey or to disobey, to choose to either love Him or reject Him? Anyone with any intelligence at all understands that people are responsible for their own actions because they made the choice.

 

[BNR32FAN]

When Eve fell she instantly became the agent of Satan complete with her brand new sinful nature and strong ties to Adam's heart strings.

When Satan uses the serpent to tempt Eve - she has no strong ties to the snake, no conflict of interest where she identifies with the snake and would rather die than be separated from the snake.

This all seems completely from imagination and irrelevant.

Adam as head of the human race had all those ties to Eve. His "go down with the ship" rather than "let her crash and burn - I hope God will make another Eve after this" -- is not exactly impossible even for us today - to understand how Eve as an agent of satan appealing to Adam was a much stronger game stacked against Adam, than a talking-snake's appeal to Eve.

Again completely imagination, where do you get any indication at all about why Adam ate the fruit?

 

[BNR32FAN]

how so??

The angels fell before Adam and Eve - they had no Satan -- all of them were sinless. The fact that one fell did not mean all of them had to fall.

Because we have free will and disobedience and sin is human nature. That’s why everyone eventually sins.

As for angels we don’t know what happened during their fall and we don’t know much about their nature either.

 

[RandyPNW]

Oh, but indeed he can!

Free will (self power) is the ability to choose without external force or constraint.
And man chooses what he prefers.
That being the case, God can work in man's disposition, giving man to prefer God's will, which man then freely chooses.

You seem to be tangled in a contradiction. You say that man can act without external force, but then you say that God works in man's disposition. Which is it--no external force or Divine work in our lives?

So, if God is operating in our lives, He either determines all of our choices in advance or He doesn't. You are saying that His influence is limited to "preferring" we make certain choices, which means that He does not know what choice we will make.

 

[RandyPNW]

Then how were the names in the book of life written before creation according to His foreknowledge?

As I've said elsewhere, God planned for only good children originally. They were all predetermined to live in His life. Those who begin to live by His spiritual life and then withdraw from obeying Him will be struck from the book of life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

As I've said elsewhere, God planned for only good children originally. They were all predetermined to live in His life. Those who begin to live by His spiritual life and then withdraw from obeying Him will be struck from the book of life.

Nope that doesn’t work because Revelation 13:8 makes it clear that everyone’s name was not written in the book of life before creation.

”All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And so does Revelation 17:8

”“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So how did God know which names to write in the book of life before creation?

 

[Jonaitis]

Assumption #1: God knows all things past, present, and future; therefore, God knew that sin would exist even before the creation of Lucifer.
Assumption #2: God is love

Points to consider

1. God does not desire companion bots that love him instinctually.
2. God does not desire a choiceless "love."
3. God had reasons for proceeding with creation, even though He knew it would result in sin and suffering.

Since God is love, what does the existence of sin teach us about God's nature and Godly love?
What is God's ultimate goal?
What does the cross inform us about free will?
Can God be just without being merciful?
What does all of this say about the nature of God's wrath? (When the thing happens that God foreknew would happen, does God get mad?)

Most of God's characteristics in the Bible are determined in light of sin (justice, mercy, goodness, patience, etc), and therefore, this fortifies the idea that sin must exist for this same being to display who he is. What is goodness without evil? What is love without hate?

So it teaches me that duality is inherent in creation, and must therefore, and necessarily, exist forever on this plane of existence to uphold the concept of anything in contrast to something else.

 

[Clare73]

You seem to be tangled in a contradiction. You say that man can act without external force, but then you say that
God works in man's disposition. Which is it--no external force or Divine work in our lives?

Our disposition is internal, not external.
God exerts no external force nor constraint, only internal persuasion, to which our wills freely respond without being forced.

 

[bling]

Very good post! I enjoyed reading it very much. Gave me some insights I never thought of before.

I would expect you to have further questions since I just introduced some ideas.

 

[RandyPNW]

Our disposition is internal, not external.
God exerts no external force nor constraint, only internal persuasion, to which our wills freely respond without being forced.

Are you saying that "internal constraint" is not "constraint?"

 

[Clare73]

Are you saying that "internal constraint" is not "constraint?"

I am saying free will is a matter of no external force or constraint,
and one's disposition is internal, not external.

 

[RandyPNW]

I am saying free will is a matter of no external force or constraint,
and one's disposition is internal, not external.

Okay, you don't care to resolve the inconsistency. That's fine with me. For the record, I believe God's internal constraint upon our lives *is* in fact an "external force."

 

[Clare73]

Okay, you don't care to resolve the inconsistency. That's fine with me. For the record, I believe
God's internal constraint upon our lives *is* in fact an "external force."

I think that's called a contradiction of terms.

 

[fhansen]

Assumption #1: God knows all things past, present, and future; therefore, God knew that sin would exist even before the creation of Lucifer.
Assumption #2: God is love

Points to consider

1. God does not desire companion bots that love him instinctually.
2. God does not desire a choiceless "love."
3. God had reasons for proceeding with creation, even though He knew it would result in sin and suffering.

Since God is love, what does the existence of sin teach us about God's nature and Godly love?
What is God's ultimate goal?
What does the cross inform us about free will?
Can God be just without being merciful?
What does all of this say about the nature of God's wrath? (When the thing happens that God foreknew would happen, does God get mad?)

God knows that love is only possible to the extent that it's freely chosen. His desire that we use that freedom rightly, that we come to value love with it, is the only reason that He would also allow for the risk that evil might result from that freedom instead.

 

[RandyPNW]

I think that's called a contradiction of terms.

I got it. You're trying to throw the accusation back on me, the accuser?

Again, my opinion is that God, who is "external" to me, coerces me internally. In that way, His spiritual influence moves me to make a decision.

I don't believe God makes me do things, but I think He knows who will respond and who will not, depending on the conditions into which they came into existence. Those God originally planned for will naturally respond to God's call, being raised up in the soil God originally planned for them.

Some, who were disobedient, by their acts of disobedience, change the original storyline. They caused some seed to fall into bad soil, where God had not planned for them to be sown. And God knows they will reject any control He wants to exercise over their choices.

Call that Predestination, or not. It's just what I believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

As I've said elsewhere, God planned for only good children originally. They were all predetermined to live in His life. Those who begin to live by His spiritual life and then withdraw from obeying Him will be struck from the book of life.

Nobody’s name is struck from the book. Now your just refusing to accept what I’ve proven by the scriptures. I just quoted two verses that specifically stated that everyone’s name was not written in the book of life.

”All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Clare73]

I got it. You're trying to throw the accusation back on me, the accuser?

Again, my opinion is that God, who is "external" to me, coerces me internally. In that way, His spiritual influence moves me to make a decision.

Read the definition again. . .it's not about "me," it's about my will--what is external to my will.

"external force to the human will" - the will is governed by the disposition, which disposition is not an external force, but an internal force.
God's work in the disposition is not external, it is internal.
The will is not forced by one's disposition, the will prefers one's disposition, which disposition is where God works inwardly, inside the person, giving one to prefer God's will, which he then freely chooses.

God's change of us does not violate our "free will". . .free will being nowhere stated in the Bible.