It's so difficult to find a non dispensational church...

[Jamdoc]

It seems that way and it is sad or grievous or ironic or whatever
that
others have been labelled 'dispys' who are not, but labelled because they have shown from Scripture and history different dispensations , such as they might be called,
and
when sticking with Scripture they do not agree with dispys or others who think pre-trib is true .

i.e. throw out the labels and preconceived (though popular?) notions
and agree with Scripture as the Creator Reveals His Plan and His Purpose
without man's labels..

I think salvation has always been by grace. Abraham was a liar, and he is still the model of all the faithful. "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

I sometimes in my head, refer to various people within scripture tagged with their biblical pet sins, to demonstrate that it is not these men's personal acts that saved them, but they believed God, it is grace. Romans 4, Hebrews 11. I say "Abraham the Liar" "Noah the Drunkard" "David the Adulterer" "Samson the Whoremonger" .. Lot the Worldly.... you get the idea.
These men, just like us, are forgiven sinners.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I just moved and now I'm having to look for a new church, there is a KJV independent fundamental baptist church literally 2 blocks away from me but.. as is common for protestant denomination churches they are dispensationalist pretribulationists.

ever since meditating on Romans 11 for a significant amount of time, I can't take dispensationalism seriously anymore.
However because of meditating on Romans 11 for a significant amount of time I can't take Ammillenialists who parrot off "we're spiritual Israel, the church replaces Israel" seriously either.

Israel as branches of the olive tree were broken off from unbelief, and we, the wild branches, were grafted into the tree, but Paul says God will lift the blindness from Israel and they will be grafted back in.

So it's not a replacement, nor is it 2 separate plans. John in Revelation 7 makes a distinction between the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel, and the great multitude from every tribe, tongue and nation. I think there's a difference but it's not so hard line as dispensationalists tote.
Why is it so hard to find a church that doesn't swing to either extreme on this issue?

Why do you care? Find a place that preaches Christ crucified. Ignore anything they teach that you don't agree with. You'll never find a place that is 100% in line with your ideas. I attend a church that has a number of practices that I don't agree with. The Pastor loves Jesus, welcomes my wife and I and preaches a sound word. He also sprinkles babies if people ask and he baptises by immersion if that's what people want. There was a time when I would have none of that. But I've grown up.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why do you care? Find a place that preaches Christ crucified. Ignore anything they teach that you don't agree with. You'll never find a place that is 100% in line with your ideas. I attend a church that has a number of practices that I don't agree with. The Pastor loves Jesus, welcomes my wife and I and preaches a sound word. He also sprinkles babies if people ask and he baptises by immersion if that's what people want. There was a time when I would have none of that. But I've grown up.

because dispensationalists will only teach parts of the bible, and Amillennialists will teach the bible as all allegory.

 

[David Kent]

Why do you care? Find a place that preaches Christ crucified. Ignore anything they teach that you don't agree with. You'll never find a place that is 100% in line with your ideas. I attend a church that has a number of practices that I don't agree with. The Pastor loves Jesus, welcomes my wife and I and preaches a sound word. He also sprinkles babies if people ask and he baptises by immersion if that's what people want. There was a time when I would have none of that. But I've grown up.

So does he believe in baptismal regeneration, if not why does he sprinkle babies?

 

[Aussie Pete]

So does he believe in baptismal regeneration, if not why does he sprinkle babies?

He sprinkles babies because that's Anglican theology. I have asked him and he does not believe in baptisimal regeneration. If people want their babies sprinkled, that's what he does. A few weeks ago, he braved waves and cold to baptise an adult by full immersion in the nearby bay.

I've been to several churches in my locality. I was a member of two baptist churches and ended up in a Pentecostal church. I'm far more interested in heart attitude than in doctrinal perfection (there is no such thing). Oddly, a couple who were members of the same Pentecostal church as I was attend the Anglican church also.

 

[Aussie Pete]

because dispensationalists will only teach parts of the bible, and Amillennialists will teach the bible as all allegory.

Have you ever thought of studying God's word for yourself?

 

[David Kent]

He sprinkles babies because that's Anglican theology. I have asked him and he does not believe in baptisimal regeneration. If people want their babies sprinkled, that's what he does. A few weeks ago, he braved waves and cold to baptise an adult by full immersion in the nearby bay.

I've been to several churches in my locality. I was a member of two baptist churches and ended up in a Pentecostal church. I'm far more interested in heart attitude than in doctrinal perfection (there is no such thing). Oddly, a couple who were members of the same Pentecostal church as I was attend the Anglican church also.

The Anglicans seem to believe in Batismal regeneration as when a ba y is "baptised it's is considered a member of the church, some of them at least. I say that, as I know a Baptist minister who's a son who is an Anglcan minister who will only baptise adults by immersion, the only thing he cannot do is baptise an adult who has been 'christened as a baby, that would lose him his ministry, instead he sends them to the local Baptist church. His Bishop asked him to take over another church as well and offered him help. He declined the offer of help and said he would get the help he needed.

Some Anglican churches around here seem to be more or less Catholic, having masses and confessions, despite the 39 articles saying the mass is a blasphemous fable and a dangerous deceit.

Some Baptist churches also have included some Roman doctrines such as Lent, as a result of being in Churches together.

 

[Jamdoc]

Have you ever thought of studying God's word for yourself?

Yes, I do, and that is why I disagree with dispensationalism.
Self study is one tool though, sometimes hearing the word of God preached brings more focus to study. Often times on my own.. I'm not sure where to study, my best tool for focus without having a church that is preaching it is online sermons, online bible studies and people asking questions on these forums and other places. A question is usually when God will answer prayer and actually teach me something in scripture I didn't previously know.

Just praying and reading any ole passage randomly doesn't work, because God is not my servant to command, He'll answer, and teach, when He has reason to.

 

[Aaron112]

because dispensationalists will only teach parts of the bible

Some agree with and their studies and testimonies agree with All Scripture, not just parts.
Likewise, those who are not disp will do the same thing at times - not teach parts of the Bible, while others with similar "label"/category will be found to agree with All Scripture.
Putting or using a label is a shortcut which often misses important aspects.

and that is why I disagree with dispensationalism.

Anything that is an "-ism" will or may be found to have numerous errors, small or large, or short-comings or deficiencies or even failures.
The disciples abiding in Jesus in the way described in the Bible will usually, hopefully, avoid
taking the whole package of any "-ism" due to the nature of them,
and instead always cleanly, simply, purely abide in Jesus , remain in Scripture, day by day as God Reveals His Plan and Purpose , and as He opens our minds to understand His Wisdom and His Word.

 

[Aaron112]

Abraham was a liar,

This is very very very inaccurate to say. I noticed likewise someone whether you or not, and others , have boldly spoken against Yahweh's Anointed ones, calling King David various names and other of the faithful ones one thing or another.
The Word of The Creator, Scripture, does not agree with that and warns against that.

Not as if they were 'perfect' , but they are perfect examples, and Yahweh's Chosen ones... and
so we must eagerly and clearly learn to
agree with what Yahweh says and not what the carnal view is.

 

[Aaron112]

These men, just like us, are forgiven sinners.

Unlike us they were picked and chosen and used by Yahweh for His Plan and Purpose and
Yahwseh's Testimony of them is very different than the 'common' believer....
There are few in the world today, in the last century,
who were seen as picked by Yahweh and used in some known way verifiable by the faithfulness, the light they walked in and shone bright, the knowledge and experience in God's Kingdom as shown by their tested and proven testimonies and works ....

 

[Jamdoc]

Unlike us they were picked and chosen and used by Yahweh for His Plan and Purpose and
Yahwseh's Testimony of them is very different than the 'common' believer....
There are few in the world today, in the last century,
who were seen as picked by Yahweh and used in some known way verifiable by the faithfulness, the light they walked in and shone bright, the knowledge and experience in God's Kingdom as shown by their tested and proven testimonies and works ....

all saved people are chosen, now we choose Him too but God actually initiates it, I believe it's He chose those He foreknew would choose Him, perhaps rather than a pure Calvinist angle, a balance between God desires all to be saved, and God's election and sovereignty.
I'm less picky about that doctrine since I can see both sides scripturally, and I've never seen Calvinism or Arminianism result in only preaching parts of the bible,
But God ultimately chose all people who would ever be saved.

 

[Jamdoc]

This is very very very inaccurate to say. I noticed likewise someone whether you or not, and others , have boldly spoken against Yahweh's Anointed ones, calling King David various names and other of the faithful ones one thing or another.
The Word of The Creator, Scripture, does not agree with that and warns against that.

Not as if they were 'perfect' , but they are perfect examples, and Yahweh's Chosen ones... and
so we must eagerly and clearly learn to
agree with what Yahweh says and not what the carnal view is.

Abraham lied, multiple times, what do you call someone who lies?
Noah got himself drunk AFTER being saved from the flood by God, what do you call someone who gets drunk?
David, who wrote psalms about God being his savior, looked on Bathsheba, a married woman, and had sex with her. Then he purposefully reassigned her husband to a dangerous duty that would get him killed Not only adultery, but murder as well. David was also a polygamist. You know, i could call Abraham Abraham the Adulterer as well, as he had sex with a woman who was not his wife and impregnated her.

I don't mean to do this to belittle people whom God chose.
I do this to glorify the God who redeemed these sinners.

 

[Aaron112]

Identify them as the Creator does, not as the carnal flesh does.
Abraham the father of ALL the faithful, or all faith.
King David, a man after God's Own Heart.
The Creator Speaks highly of these chosen ones who were/are set apart by Him, for Him, for His Purpose.

Never speak ill of those anointed by the Creator.
1 Samuel 26:9
And David said to Abishai, Destroy him not:
for who can stretch forth his hand against the LORD'S anointed, and be guiltless?

 

[Jamdoc]

Identify them as the Creator does, not as the carnal flesh does.
Abraham the father of ALL the faithful, or all faith.
King David, a man after God's Own Heart.
The Creator Speaks highly of these chosen ones who were/are set apart by Him, for Him, for His Purpose.

Never speak ill of those anointed by the Creator.
1 Samuel 26:9
And David said to Abishai, Destroy him not:
for who can stretch forth his hand against the LORD'S anointed, and be guiltless?

They still sinned, they still needed a savior.

 

[Aaron112]

They still sinned, they still needed a savior.

When In heaven , God Himself SAYS, there is no thief, no murderer, no liar ...

So When Resurrected in the life to come Abraham, King David, etc
are not
called murderers, liars nor thieves... and should not be called that now, today.
It is speaking ill of those God Anointed, ....

 

[Bobber]

You're not going to convince me of dispensationalism. It's just not going to happen.
Dispensationalism basically serves to function as a way to try and force a pretribulation rapture that doesn't exist in the bible.
and I just get oh so tired of pastors having to interrupt their own sermons on any prophetic books with "but this won't happen until after the rapture" almost like they're trying to convince themselves.

I get it. You don't like a pretribulation teaching. I don't believe in a PreTrib position either but as for me I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker in regard to what church I'd go to. If there's not a church in your area which holds to the end time position you like you can still fellowship in a spirit of love with your brethren where ever you go. I do. Most churches every week don't start their sermons with Hey we believe in pretrib. Most churches are just trying to strengthen their brethren with words of exhortation to help them live a strong spiritual life.

I'd settle for historical premillennial post trib since finding one that is pre wrath is going to be extremely difficult but it's just hard finding something that's not full blown dispensational pretribulation, or amillennial replacement theologians. It's 1 extreme or the other.

I agree with PreWrath but in my church they don't talk about the Lord's coming as much as I think they should. But they're Pre-trib where I go as far as on paper.....if one asks me I say I believe the Lord will come back before the worst occurs...meaning the wrath. I'm not afraid for them to know my beliefs but I really don't think my leaders would even care too much. They more or less just take a position everyone be ready.....well we should be that anyway, for one doesn't know when they might die even if it's not the rapture.

 

[Jamdoc]

When In heaven , God Himself SAYS, there is no thief, no murderer, no liar ...

So When Resurrected in the life to come Abraham, King David, etc
are not
called murderers, liars nor thieves... and should not be called that now, today.
It is speaking ill of those God Anointed, ....

The point is they got redeemed despite their sin by a loving God, and they were saved the same way we are, just looking forward to Messiah rather than backwards (though we should also be looking forward to Him too)

That is what I mean by it. Dispensationalists will try to say that salvation was different during the old testament, and treat these men as if they were righteous by their own actions. They'll look at someone like Job and say "ah see Job was righteous under the law"
like the laws of God were salvific.

but Paul wrote that the law did not save, but the law condemned all men, who are wholly unable to live it to perfection, and thus, are all condemned dead men (Romans 7 boils down to this).

and Job himself said:

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Who needs a redeemer? Sinners.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The Anglicans seem to believe in Batismal regeneration as when a ba y is "baptised it's is considered a member of the church, some of them at least. I say that, as I know a Baptist minister who's a son who is an Anglcan minister who will only baptise adults by immersion, the only thing he cannot do is baptise an adult who has been 'christened as a baby, that would lose him his ministry, instead he sends them to the local Baptist church. His Bishop asked him to take over another church as well and offered him help. He declined the offer of help and said he would get the help he needed.

Some Anglican churches around here seem to be more or less Catholic, having masses and confessions, despite the 39 articles saying the mass is a blasphemous fable and a dangerous deceit.

Some Baptist churches also have included some Roman doctrines such as Lent, as a result of being in Churches together.

Anglicans range from complete unbelief in the spiritual to fervently evangelical and even charismatic. In Australia, Anglicans have divided over the issue of gay marriage and ordaining homosexual priests. It's a mess, like many other denominations. Baptists and Pentecostals ordain women pastors. Sorry, I can find no biblical justification. So I look for a church where the pastor loves Jesus, loves his people and preaches sound doctrine. That's a rare combination these days.

 

[Aaron112]

Dispensationalists will try to say that salvation was different during the old testament, and treat these men as if they were righteous by their own actions. They'll look at someone like Job and say "ah see Job was righteous under the law"
like the laws of God were salvific.

This looks sadly too presumptive and in error, mostly because of the label "Disp...." ...
Some teachings are truth.
Some teachings are false.
Most all men and most all teachings are possibly most false. This is the world we live in.