The Waters Above the Firmament

[Dale]

God inspired the creation stories in Genesis to bring spiritual truths to the ancient Israelites. It brought the spiritual truth that the one true God created all that exists. At the same time, the creation stories in Genesis do not contain accurate information about science, geography or even history. The ancient Israelites understood very little about the physical world, and the Genesis accounts let that stand. Creationists assume that the ancients knew more than they really did.

The first chapter of Genesis tells us that God separated the waters, so that there are waters below the sky and waters above the sky. In the King James Version, these are the waters above the firmament and the waters below the firmament.

And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters
to separate water from water.”
So God made the expanse and separated the water under the
expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
God called the expanse “sky”. And there was evening, and
there was morning — the second day.
Genesis 1:6-8 NIV

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst
of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters
which [were] under the firmament from the waters which
[were] above the firmament: and it was so. And God
called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the
morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:6-8 KJV

Modern Christians tend to skip over details like the separation of the Waters Above the Firmament from the Waters Below the Firmament. Or if you prefer, the separation of the Waters Above the Sky from the Waters Below the Sky. There is no doubt what this meant to the ancient Israelites. The Waters Above the Sky were the source of rain. It is also likely that they thought the Waters Above the Sky were the source of the blue color of the sky.

To me, the separation of the waters above and below seems to be an incomplete explanation. If there was a huge mass of salt water before God separated the waters, it looks like the Waters Above the Sky would be salt water. In that case, it would rain salt water. Obviously that isn’t so. Perhaps God left all the salt in the Waters Below the Sky? If so, Genesis doesn’t say so.

Genesis 1:9-10 says that God “gathered” the waters under the sky. In other words, God marked boundaries for the seas. Genesis doesn’t say anything about the ocean having a bottom, so it is possible that the Waters Below and the Waters Above are both intended to be infinite. The Israelites never worried that the Waters Above the Sky would be exhausted, leading to the end of rain.

The Israelites did not understand the water cycle, that the sun’s warmth causes water in the seas and elsewhere to evaporate. Water vapor then forms clouds, which produce rain, snow and also sleet and hail when conditions are right. As a child, I can remember being puzzled when the water level in a glass of water went down even though no one drank from it. “Water evaporates,” my mother told me.

While these things are well understood today, there were not known in Biblical times. We might expect storm clouds to be mentioned in the story of Noah and the Flood. Genesis doesn’t mention clouds before the Flood, but it does mention clouds in connection with the rainbow after the Flood.

In Ecclesiastes we find:

All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the
place the streams come from, there they return again.
Ecclesiastes 1:7 NIV

The author of Ecclesiastes is amazed that the sea never overflows, despite all of the worlds rivers and creeks emptying into it. He knew nothing of the water cycle.

Further evidence that the ancients did not understand the water cycle is found in Job.

[God says,]
“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the
storehouses of the hail,
which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
Job 38:22-23 NIV

The Israelites didn’t realize that snow is simply an alternate form of rain, depending on the temperature. The Israelites saw hail as a sign of God’s power, as a sign that God could bring destruction on anyone, any army or any kingdom, at any time. They did not realize that hail is formed by condensing water in the clouds under the right conditions. They didn’t realize that snow and hail come from much the same process that produces rain. Instead, they imagined “storehouses of the snow” and “storehouses of the hail.”

The following link leads to a scholarly article that backs up these points. The Israelites, like other ancient peoples, saw the sky as a solid barrier.

The Westminster Theological Journal 53 (1991) 227-40 Copyright © 1991 by Westminster Theological Seminary, cited with permission. WTJ 53 (1991) 227-240 THE FIRMAMENT AND THE WATER ABOVE Part I: The Meaning of raqiac in Gen 1:6-8 PAUL H. SEELY

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

 

[Dale]

The link below presents a creationist view which rejects the notion that the Waters Above the Sky are the source of rain. This is a different point of view but it turns out not to be plausible.

<< The expression “waters that were above the expanse” primarily designates water above a cloudy sky, that is, water inside clouds, whose lower side is the sky. >>

The author assumes that the Israelites knew that clouds were made of water vapor, and that clouds condensed into rain. This is unlikely and contradicted by the verses in Ecclesiastes, Job and elsewhere. Also, the Israelites wouldn’t see clouds as being above the sky, they would see them as being in the sky. We know that the Israelites were aware that the stars and other heavenly bodies were above the clouds.

<< There is no providential experience of a heavenly sea, whereas there is providential experience of rain descending from clouds. The implausibility of the heavenly-sea interpretation increases because of its lack of contact with ordinary experience. >>

Again, the author assumes that the Israelites understood the role of clouds in producing rain, thus rendering the “heavenly-sea interpretation” unnecessary. If that is what creationists think, they are arguing with the Bible, which plainly tells us that there are Waters Above the Firmament.

Source:

Stop Saying the Ancient Israelites Believed the Sky Was a Big Solid Dome with a Heavenly Sea Above It

Stop Saying the Ancient Israelites Believed the Sky Was a Big Solid Dome with a Heavenly Sea Above It

 

[Dale]

A number of verses associate shutting the sky with lack of rain. Shutting the sky is clearly a power of God. None of these verses mention clouds as the source of rain.

Here is one of the warnings in Deuteronomy:

Then the LORD’s anger will burn against you, and he will
shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will
yield no produce, and you will soon perish from the good
land the LORD is giving you.
Deuteronomy 11:17 NIV

In First Kings we are told that when there is no rain, the people should assume that God is judging them for their moral errors and repent.

“When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because
your people have sinned against you, and when they pray
towards this place [the Temple] and confess your name and turn from their
sin because you have afflicted them,
then hear from heaven and forgive the sin of your servants,
your people Israel. Teach them the right way to live, and send
rain on the land you gave your people for an inheritance.
I Kings 8:35-36 NIV

The same words appear in II Chronicles.

“When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because
your people have sinned against you, and when they pray
towards this place [the Temple] and confess your name and turn from their
sin because you have afflicted them,
then hear from heaven and forgive the sin of your servants,
your people Israel. Teach them the right way to live, and send
rain on the land that you gave your people for an inheritance.
II Chronicles 6:26-27 NIV

Second Chronicles makes the same point again.

[God says, ]“When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or
command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among
my people,
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble
themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their
wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive
their sin and will heal their land.
II Chronicles 7:13-14 NIV

The New Testament continues to associate the shutting of the sky at God’s command with lack of rain, leading to drought and famine.

[Jesus says,] I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s
time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and
there was a severe famine throughout the land.
Luke 4:25 NIV

The same idea appears in Revelation.

These men [the two witnesses] have power to shut up the sky so that it will not
rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have
power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth
with every kind of plague as often as they want.
Revelation 11:6 NIV

All of these passages tell us that God has the power to send rain or withhold it. None of them say that clouds are the source of rain.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The link below presents a creationist view which rejects the notion that the Waters Above the Sky are the source of rain. This is a different point of view but it turns out not to be plausible.

<< The expression “waters that were above the expanse” primarily designates water above a cloudy sky, that is, water inside clouds, whose lower side is the sky. >>

The author assumes that the Israelites knew that clouds were made of water vapor, and that clouds condensed into rain. This is unlikely and contradicted by the verses in Ecclesiastes, Job and elsewhere. Also, the Israelites wouldn’t see clouds as being above the sky, they would see them as being in the sky. We know that the Israelites were aware that the stars and other heavenly bodies were above the clouds.

<< There is no providential experience of a heavenly sea, whereas there is providential experience of rain descending from clouds. The implausibility of the heavenly-sea interpretation increases because of its lack of contact with ordinary experience. >>

Again, the author assumes that the Israelites understood the role of clouds in producing rain, thus rendering the “heavenly-sea interpretation” unnecessary. If that is what creationists think, they are arguing with the Bible, which plainly tells us that there are Waters Above the Firmament.

Source:

Stop Saying the Ancient Israelites Believed the Sky Was a Big Solid Dome with a Heavenly Sea Above It

Stop Saying the Ancient Israelites Believed the Sky Was a Big Solid Dome with a Heavenly Sea Above It

My take is that there was no rain prior to Noah's flood. This is implied Genesis 2:5. There were springs of water, so rain was not necessary. We don't know if there were clouds in the beginning. It could be that there was high humidity from the water vapour in the air. We don't know. Does it matter? How many people are going to be saved, healed or set free by this discussion?

 

[BeyondET]

scripture is for all generations, the formation of the galaxy and solar system, separated hydrogen's the waters, spiral arms the expanse.

 

[Dale]

My take is that there was no rain prior to Noah's flood. This is implied Genesis 2:5. There were springs of water, so rain was not necessary. We don't know if there were clouds in the beginning. It could be that there was high humidity from the water vapour in the air. We don't know. Does it matter? How many people are going to be saved, healed or set free by this discussion?

AussiePete: “Does it matter? How many people are going to be saved, healed or set free by this discussion?”

Do creationists ever ask that question? As far as I can tell, creationism accomplishes nothing. Many creationists have devoted their lives to driving anyone who doesn’t agree with them out of God’s church. Do they ever ask if it’s worth it?

I’m standing up for the people who are not creationists who want to be part of God’s church.

I’m also studying what the Bible really says, as opposed to what many pastors want us to think it says.

 

[d taylor]

To bad Mr Seely does not believe the Bible and tries to make out the Hebrews and writers of the Bible as some ignorant people. Who did not know/understand God's true creation.

His flat earth paper.
Geographical Meaning of "Earth" and "Seas" in Gen. 1:10: Seely

 

[Job 33:6]

A number of verses associate shutting the sky with lack of rain. Shutting the sky is clearly a power of God. None of these verses mention clouds as the source of rain.

Here is one of the warnings in Deuteronomy:

Then the LORD’s anger will burn against you, and he will
shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will
yield no produce, and you will soon perish from the good
land the LORD is giving you.
Deuteronomy 11:17 NIV

In First Kings we are told that when there is no rain, the people should assume that God is judging them for their moral errors and repent.

“When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because
your people have sinned against you, and when they pray
towards this place [the Temple] and confess your name and turn from their
sin because you have afflicted them,
then hear from heaven and forgive the sin of your servants,
your people Israel. Teach them the right way to live, and send
rain on the land you gave your people for an inheritance.
I Kings 8:35-36 NIV

The same words appear in II Chronicles.

“When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because
your people have sinned against you, and when they pray
towards this place [the Temple] and confess your name and turn from their
sin because you have afflicted them,
then hear from heaven and forgive the sin of your servants,
your people Israel. Teach them the right way to live, and send
rain on the land that you gave your people for an inheritance.
II Chronicles 6:26-27 NIV

Second Chronicles makes the same point again.

[God says, ]“When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or
command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among
my people,
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble
themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their
wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive
their sin and will heal their land.
II Chronicles 7:13-14 NIV

The New Testament continues to associate the shutting of the sky at God’s command with lack of rain, leading to drought and famine.

[Jesus says,] I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s
time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and
there was a severe famine throughout the land.
Luke 4:25 NIV

The same idea appears in Revelation.

These men [the two witnesses] have power to shut up the sky so that it will not
rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have
power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth
with every kind of plague as often as they want.
Revelation 11:6 NIV

All of these passages tell us that God has the power to send rain or withhold it. None of them say that clouds are the source of rain.

Ah yes, and of course the windows of the firmament opened to release water as well. God opening and God shutting the firmament.

 

[d taylor]

-​

The main discreditors of the Bible's recorded creation account, are christians.

 

[BeyondET]

-​

The main discreditors of the Bible's recorded creation account, are christians.

No, people who don’t believe,

the basic Genesis 1:1

 

[Derf]

number of verses associate shutting the sky with lack of rain. Shutting the sky is clearly a power of God. None of these verses mention clouds as the source of rain.

Here’s one that does:
1 Kings 18:44-45 (NKJV) 44 Then it came to pass the seventh [time,] that he said, “There is a cloud, as small as a man’s hand, rising out of the sea!” So he said, “Go up, say to Ahab, ‘Prepare [your chariot,] and go down before the rain stops you.’ ” 45 Now it happened in the meantime that the sky became black with clouds and wind, and there was a heavy rain. So Ahab rode away and went to Jezreel.

 

[Aussie Pete]

AussiePete: “Does it matter? How many people are going to be saved, healed or set free by this discussion?”

Do creationists ever ask that question? As far as I can tell, creationism accomplishes nothing. Many creationists have devoted their lives to driving anyone who doesn’t agree with them out of God’s church. Do they ever ask if it’s worth it?

I’m standing up for the people who are not creationists who want to be part of God’s church.

I’m also studying what the Bible really says, as opposed to what many pastors want us to think it says.

Gee, I've been a Christian 50 years and I've never been asked my views on creation v. evolution. I've not seen creationists rounding up evolutionists and driving them out. I've missed all that fun.

I'm a creationist because that is what God says and because I saw his glory in the creation before I was saved. I also cannot see how sin came into the world through evolution. That's just me. If people can find a way to rationalise evolution and God's word, fine. I'll put my point of view, if the subject comes up but that's it.

 

[coffee4u]

At the same time, the creation stories in Genesis do not contain accurate information about science, geography or even history.

You know what God said to Job:
“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

So were you there? Did you see God create?

It's one thing to say "I believe Genesis doesn't contain accurate information about science, geography or even history." You can believe whatever you like, that doesn't make you correct.

Creationists assume that the ancients knew more than they really did.

I'm a creationist and I have never thought or said that. I assume the ancients knew very little. God told them things without expecting understanding. He expected faith, trust and and obedience.

The first chapter of Genesis tells us that God separated the waters, so that there are waters below the sky and waters above the sky. In the King James Version, these are the waters above the firmament and the waters below the firmament.

And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters
to separate water from water.”
So God made the expanse and separated the water under the
expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
God called the expanse “sky”. And there was evening, and
there was morning — the second day.
Genesis 1:6-8 NIV

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst
of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters
which [were] under the firmament from the waters which
[were] above the firmament: and it was so. And God
called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the
morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:6-8 KJV

Modern Christians tend to skip over details like the separation of the Waters Above the Firmament from the Waters Below the Firmament.
Or if you prefer, the separation of the Waters Above the Sky from the Waters Below the Sky. There is no doubt what this meant to the ancient Israelites. The Waters Above the Sky were the source of rain. It is also likely that they thought the Waters Above the Sky were the source of the blue color of the sky.

I don't know about 'modern Christians', whatever that means, but as a creationist I would never skip over it. The firmament was where a considerable amount of the global flood waters came from. The other was from water under the surface.
Genesis 7
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth
The water from under the earth
, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
The water contained in the firmament
12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Before the flood there was no rain. The ground was kept watered from the water source underneath the earth.
Genesis 2:6
but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

Which is why the rainbow in Geneses 8 was such a big deal. The rainbow occurs as we known when droplets and light is reflected. It hadn't happened before because there hadn't been rain before. This is why it was such an important symbol.
Genesis 9:13
I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.
It was a sign of a new covenant with the new world. This world was not like the old world. Things were different, the firmament protecting the world had gone and there was ash in the sky from the eruptions during the flood.
Because of the changes man was now given meat.
Genesis 9:3
Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
Man was given meat because God knew they needed a quick source of protein if he was going to survive in the new harsh climate.

After the firmament came down, what was left was a thin atmosphere of cloud, it is what we have now and our source of rain. I am sure they looked up to the sky as their source of rain too, why wouldn't they?

To me, the separation of the waters above and below seems to be an incomplete explanation. If there was a huge mass of salt water before God separated the waters, it looks like the Waters Above the Sky would be salt water. In that case, it would rain salt water. Obviously that isn’t so. Perhaps God left all the salt in the Waters Below the Sky? If so, Genesis doesn’t say so.

Salt in the ocean is mainly caused by rain washing minerals from the land into the water, The salt came from the land not the rain.

Genesis 1:9-10 says that God “gathered” the waters under the sky. In other words, God marked boundaries for the seas. Genesis doesn’t say anything about the ocean having a bottom, so it is possible that the Waters Below and the Waters Above are both intended to be infinite. The Israelites never worried that the Waters Above the Sky would be exhausted, leading to the end of rain.

We know water came from above and from below during the flood and that the world was made out of water.
2 Peter 3
5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
To say the flood wasn't real you also have to toss out Peter.

It was the world that perished, not a valley or a county, the entire world. Which would also be why the ocean is so salty, it took a lot of minerals being washed out of the soil all over the world to make water that salty. Quite possibly salt water was another feature of this new world.

The Israelites did not understand the water cycle, that the sun’s warmth causes water in the seas and elsewhere to evaporate. Water vapor then forms clouds, which produce rain, snow and also sleet and hail when conditions are right. As a child, I can remember being puzzled when the water level in a glass of water went down even though no one drank from it. “Water evaporates,” my mother told me.

They didn't have to. They didn't understand why God wanted them to quarantine outside the camp for 7 days either.
Many people will follow rules if a well reasoned argument is put forth as to why they should. We understand that its safest in a fire to get down on the floor. We do so because we know that's good sound advice. God didn't give them reasons, because if he had given them reasons they may have followed those laws from their own human wisdom. God wanted them to follow them because they trusted and had faith in him.
Trusting Him means shifting your confidence in yourself over to confidence in him.Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

While these things are well understood today, there were not known in Biblical times. We might expect storm clouds to be mentioned in the story of Noah and the Flood. Genesis doesn’t mention clouds before the Flood, but it does mention clouds in connection with the rainbow after the Flood.

No I don't expect clouds to be mentioned in the account of Noah for the reasons I said before, clouds as we know them are a post flood phenomenon. At the time of the flood they lived under the firmament which kept the earth warm like a blanket. We can only imagine what the sky looked like to Noah before the flood, probably just a uniform grey.

In Ecclesiastes we find:

All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the
place the streams come from, there they return again.
Ecclesiastes 1:7 NIV

The author of Ecclesiastes is amazed that the sea never overflows, despite all of the worlds rivers and creeks emptying into it. He knew nothing of the water cycle.

Further evidence that the ancients did not understand the water cycle is found in Job.

God says,
“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the
storehouses of the hail,
which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
Job 38:22-23 NIV

The Israelites didn’t realize that snow is simply an alternate form of rain, depending on the temperature. The Israelites saw hail as a sign of God’s power, as a sign that God could bring destruction on anyone, any army or any kingdom, at any time. They did not realize that hail is formed by condensing water in the clouds under the right conditions. They didn’t realize that snow and hail come from much the same process that produces rain. Instead, they imagined “storehouses of the snow” and “storehouses of the hail.”

The following link leads to a scholarly article that backs up these points. The Israelites, like other ancient peoples, saw the sky as a solid barrier.

The Westminster Theological Journal 53 (1991) 227-40 Copyright © 1991 by Westminster Theological Seminary, cited with permission. WTJ 53 (1991) 227-240 THE FIRMAMENT AND THE WATER ABOVE Part I: The Meaning of raqiac in Gen 1:6-8 PAUL H. SEELY

You seem very fixated on their understanding. Their understanding or lack of it is of no importance. They didn't have to understand, only trust and obey.

 

[coffee4u]

As far as I can tell, creationism accomplishes nothing.

The point of creationism is to show where sin came from and that death is because of sin and only because of sin. It is because sin is linked to death that a perfect death was the only way we could be redeemed.

 

[Job 33:6]

.

After the firmament came down,

Does scripture say that the firmament came down? I see it says that it's windows or flood gates opened to let rain in, but I don't see it described as having come down.

 

[The Barbarian]

Does scripture say that the firmament came down? I see it says that it's windows or flood gates opened to let rain in, but I don't see it described as having come down.

That would be kind of rough for the Earth; something substantial enough to hold up an ocean, falling to earth, would have made short work of the Ark.

 

[Job 33:6]

That would be kind of rough for the Earth; something substantial enough to hold up an ocean, falling to earth, would have made short work of the Ark.

Yea. Well I just don't recall scripture actually saying that. I'm familiar with the passage on windows of the firmament opening to let water in. But it sounds like the idea of the firmament crashing down might be some kind of effort by YECs to suggest extra biblical concepts for the sake of avoiding the question of where the firmament went, given that it was or is a solid structure.

 

[The Barbarian]

But it sounds like the idea of the firmament crashing down might be some kind of effort by YECs to suggest extra biblical concepts for the sake of avoiding the question of where the firmament went, given that it was or is a solid structure.

Yes. And it brings into question the physics of keeping a hollow sphere suspended around the earth, with water above it, in what would be airless space where water would boil off into vapor. A dome over a flat earth would solve a lot of those problems, but there aren't that many flat-Earth creationists, these days.

So it seems a lot of ad-hocracy going on.

 

[d taylor]

Believing God's true creation given in The Bible, is a witness to the Glory and greatness of God. Creation proclaims, i have been created, and The Bible identifies the creator as God/Jesus/Holy Spirit

That is why (i believe) satan has attacked God's true creation with a false (lie) one.

The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the raqia (firmament, expanse, dome) shows His handiwork

To Him who alone does great wonders,
For His mercy endures forever;
To Him who by wisdom made the heavens,
For His mercy endures forever;
To Him who laid out the earth above the waters,
For His mercy endures forever;
To Him who made great lights,
For His mercy endures forever—
The sun to rule by day,
For His mercy endures forever;
The moon and stars to rule by night,
For His mercy endures forever.
​

1st heaven: sky, where the sun, moon and stars have been placed by God to give light upon the earth.

 

[Dale]

Gee, I've been a Christian 50 years and I've never been asked my views on creation v. evolution. I've not seen creationists rounding up evolutionists and driving them out. I've missed all that fun.

I'm a creationist because that is what God says and because I saw his glory in the creation before I was saved. I also cannot see how sin came into the world through evolution. That's just me. If people can find a way to rationalise evolution and God's word, fine. I'll put my point of view, if the subject comes up but that's it.

Several times on CF I’ve had someone tell me that I’m not a Christian because I am not a Young Earth Creationist.

Where I live, there are preachers who go out of their way to preach that there is creationism and atheism and nothing else. I have talked to at least one person on CF who was taught that as a child, then found out that creationism doesn’t work. He became an atheist. There are probably many others in the same situation.

Several years ago on CF, I talked to a girl, about 20, who was taught the same thing. When she found out that creationism won’t work, she went through a year long religious crisis when she didn’t know what she believed or if she believed anything. She finally managed to make the transition to being a non-creationist Christian.

Recently, I talked to a man who is a music minister at a nondenominational church. He is studying toward a degree to become a preaching minister as well. He told me that he had taken a test that covered Noah’s Flood. Although he is a creationist, he apparently wasn’t enough of a creationist for the professor, and was downgraded on several questions on the test.