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Kissing a married man

Enfie

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Hello everyone, I'm new here. I had no idea where to open this topic so please accept my sincere appologies if I chose the wrong part of the forum.

I need your help, opinion, thoughts.

I know a man who is divorced (no annulment in church, only in civil marriage). His wife cheated on him so he decided to divorce her... I'm single and I have never been married.
We are both Christians, we go to the same church. This is where we met.

The thing is I really love him, with all his flaws and strange behaviour. I love him for that HE IS. Simple as that. I love when he's around, when he smiles, I love listening to him and when he talks with me. Everything there is - I love it about him. This is a kind of pure love. I do not want sex with him. I know it's probably a weird thing to say in these times but when he's next to me, all that counts is that he's next to me, that we are next to eachother, talking. That we devote our time to eachother and that even though we only talk with eachother it's more than enough.

You know, I am a human, he's a human. I was thinking about what if we kissed. But I don't mean kissing with intention to get something more (e.g. sexual act) but I would like to show him as well how much I love him. I haven't talked with him about this but I was also wondering what should I do if he tries to kiss me to show me that he loves me. To be honest I wish he kissed me. All I want is this kiss to be pure, filled with our love, if it ever happens. I do not want it to be sinful. Will God see it as we see it?

I'm a Christian and I do not want to sin in this matter, I also do not want him to sin because of me. But if we kissed to express to eachother how much we love eachother would it still be a sin if it would be a pure kiss, filled with love? Keep in mind what I said above, he's divorced.

Please don't be harsh on me. I'm so confused and lost. I wish I could kiss him and express my love to him. But I also do not want to make him sin because of me.
 

Radagast

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I know a man who is divorced (no annulment in church, only in civil marriage). His wife cheated on him so he decided to divorce her... I'm single and I have never been married.
We are both Christians, we go to the same church. This is where we met.

What kind of church? Because, as far as I know, no Protestant denomination does "annulments."

Unless you're Catholic, it sounds to me like he's not married.

From a Biblical point of view, if his wife cheated on him, divorce is OK (Matthew 19:9). And it seems that he is legally divorced.
 
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Radagast

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A catholic church.

I see.

If you're Catholic, then your church has got specific rules, and he really ought to get an annulment.

If he hasn't done that, then you are opening up serious potential problems for yourself, and I would encourage you to try to guard your heart.
 
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Enfie

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The thing is that I want the kiss to be pure, from my side and his.
One of the priests that I talked to told me what matters is the intention.
However, I keep thinking about it. My intention may be to show him love but it's obvious that as a man he may want.... MORE or interpret it as a gate to something more. This is why I don't want him to sin because of me. He's a believer as well.

It's not a desire that I feel for him. He's not even... let's be frank - handsome. Just average. But I don't look at him that way. I don't know how he's doing it. When we walk together it's like the world around doesn't exist, I only see his eyes and hear his voice, I feel so calm that you can't even imagine such calmness, I don't even hear or see what's happening on the street when we walk. Still, it's unbelievable that my brain is still taking care that I didn't fall on my face or didn't have any serious accident
 
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Radagast

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When we walk together it's like the world around doesn't exist, I only see his eyes and hear his voice, I feel so calm that you can't even imagine such calmness, I don't even hear or see what's happening on the street when we walk. Still, it's unbelievable that my brain is still taking care that I didn't fall on my face or didn't have any serious accident

This feeling is called "being in love."

It's really fantastic, accept when there are obstacles to taking it to the only valid conclusion, which is marriage.
 
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Albion

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The thing is that I want the kiss to be pure, from my side and his.
One of the priests that I talked to told me what matters is the intention.
However, I keep thinking about it. My intention may be to show him love but it's obvious that as a man he may want.... MORE or interpret it as a gate to something more. This is why I don't want him to sin because of me. He's a believer as well.

It's not a desire that I feel for him. He's not even... let's be frank - handsome. Just average. But I don't look at him that way. I don't know how he's doing it. When we walk together it's like the world around doesn't exist, I only see his eyes and hear his voice, I feel so calm that you can't even imagine such calmness, I don't even hear or see what's happening on the street when we walk. Still, it's unbelievable that my brain is still taking care that I didn't fall on my face or didn't have any serious accident
The way you've described (at length) your feelings about this makes me think that you probably do feel more and want more than you say. Or perhaps more than you realize. Not necessarily the whole way, but more.

Are you sure that what is holding you back is simply the fear that his marriage has not been or cannot be dissolved?
 
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Enfie

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Thank you so much for your answers. I wish we could be friends, like pure friends. Even without kissing. He doesn't even know about my feelings and I'm scared to tell him because he's a shy person. When I don't push him he talks a lot about himself, he opens up so I wait... it's already a year and a half since I'm like this. I was the person who was the first to ask what was his name and this is how we met at church.
 
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Sketcher

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Hello everyone, I'm new here. I had no idea where to open this topic so please accept my sincere appologies if I chose the wrong part of the forum.

I need your help, opinion, thoughts.

I know a man who is divorced (no annulment in church, only in civil marriage). His wife cheated on him so he decided to divorce her... I'm single and I have never been married.
We are both Christians, we go to the same church. This is where we met.

The thing is I really love him, with all his flaws and strange behaviour. I love him for that HE IS. Simple as that. I love when he's around, when he smiles, I love listening to him and when he talks with me. Everything there is - I love it about him. This is a kind of pure love. I do not want sex with him. I know it's probably a weird thing to say in these times but when he's next to me, all that counts is that he's next to me, that we are next to eachother, talking. That we devote our time to eachother and that even though we only talk with eachother it's more than enough.

You know, I am a human, he's a human. I was thinking about what if we kissed. But I don't mean kissing with intention to get something more (e.g. sexual act) but I would like to show him as well how much I love him. I haven't talked with him about this but I was also wondering what should I do if he tries to kiss me to show me that he loves me. To be honest I wish he kissed me. All I want is this kiss to be pure, filled with our love, if it ever happens. I do not want it to be sinful. Will God see it as we see it?

I'm a Christian and I do not want to sin in this matter, I also do not want him to sin because of me. But if we kissed to express to eachother how much we love eachother would it still be a sin if it would be a pure kiss, filled with love? Keep in mind what I said above, he's divorced.

Please don't be harsh on me. I'm so confused and lost. I wish I could kiss him and express my love to him. But I also do not want to make him sin because of me.
Matthew 19:9 may make him available again, though stricter interpretations exist that say he would not be.

But, pretending for a second that he was never married, and you felt the exact same way about him:

You would need to define your relationship with him before kissing him would be a good idea. As in, you should establish yourselves as a dating couple before you kiss. Preferably an exclusive couple. Failure to do so isn't generally a sin issue, but a bad idea. You want the kiss to be an expression of love, but does he even feel the same way about you?
 
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Radagast

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Matthew 19:9 may make him available again, though stricter interpretations exist that say he would not be.

The issue is that they are both Catholics, so that there is indeed a stricter interpretation.
 
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Enfie

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This is why I'm confused.

What's even worse, I'm scared to tell him what I feel to him because I know him and I think he would start avoiding me. I don't want this. For now, when we meet (99% accidentaly) we talk, even for 5 minutes. And for me it's better to have those 5 minutes talking with him than not to meet him again, EVER! Because, trust me, he's able to do it, he knows how to hide himself well.
 
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splish- splash

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The thing is that I want the kiss to be pure, from my side and his.
One of the priests that I talked to told me what matters is the intention.
However, I keep thinking about it. My intention may be to show him love but it's obvious that as a man he may want.... MORE or interpret it as a gate to something more. This is why I don't want him to sin because of me. He's a believer as well.

It's not a desire that I feel for him. He's not even... let's be frank - handsome. Just average. But I don't look at him that way. I don't know how he's doing it. When we walk together it's like the world around doesn't exist, I only see his eyes and hear his voice, I feel so calm that you can't even imagine such calmness, I don't even hear or see what's happening on the street when we walk. Still, it's unbelievable that my brain is still taking care that I didn't fall on my face or didn't have any serious accident

:laughing::laughing:.. & how are things, so many months later?
 
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EmethAlethia

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Well, we can get the opinions of men on the topic, we can go with our "feelings" and "beliefs" and frankly we can believe whatever we want on this and every topic if we do the following:

1.) Gather whatever you can “use” to prove what you “want to believe” to be truth.

2.) Accumulate all evidence you feel might prove all opposing views incorrect.

3.) Assuming your beliefs are unquestionable truth, interpret everything in such a way as to make it all support, or at least not negate, your beliefs. All “valid” data, must support … or at least not negate, your infallible beliefs.

4.) Reinterpret, ignore, discredit, invalidate … anything that doesn’t seem to fit with your views, Why? Our beliefs are “Fact” Valid data interpreted correctly can’t contradict the facts.

5.) Father all the other experiences, feelings, data … to solidify your beliefs such as signs, wonders, spiritual gifts or facts about your belief group. Things like: we have a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, we perform signs or wonders, a statue of Mary came to life and told us our belief groups views are correct, we have prayed to God for the truth and received “feelings” or even signs from heaven. Or, on a more concrete level: Our belief group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, has the most experts with doctorates… Include anything that adds assurance that your views and belief group have the most truth.

If we do the above, we can hold fast to "whatever we want to believe" "as" truth. So, pick what you want to believe and gather everything you can use to believe whatever you want, and interpret everything the way you want to... "Whalla, everything we want to believe is truth." Of course this methodology works for those unwilling to do what it takes to get to truth. We all get what we want in the end.

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Do more of any one of those 5 things just listed and you can harden yourself more and more into any belief you want, closing your eyes and ears to even considering any opposing belief. I call those 5 things Methodology One. But if you want truth ... you have to do things differently. Here's a contrasting Method.

1.) Avoid “Methodology One”: Proving your beliefs true and holding fast to them, is not the same as, “Proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life, and holding fast to what is good/true.” Look at that 2Th. 2:10-13 passage. Paul said that the lost in the end times failed, and Paul used the same standard and judged that those he was writing to were held to the same standard but passed the test and received a love of the truth and were true Christians making this a timeless truth.

2.) Open-mindedness: All belief groups believe in being open minded … “until” you accept their beliefs. Then they believe in being as closed as possible. If you love truth, you will continually remain open-minded to altering any or all of your beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth, when everything that “might” pertain to the topic at hand is rightly divided. How many passages are there about closing your eyes and ears lest you see or hear. Look at Methodology One again. What is it designed to do?

3.) Habitual ongoing Labor/ Getting Every Piece of Data that Might Pertain: If you Love Truth, you, personally, must become a manual laborer and keep on gathering every fact anyone thinks might pertain to every topic at hand. Then gather all the data that “might pertain” no belief group gathers because they can’t use that information to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false. Yes, that’s every piece of data that proves all your current beliefs false that the opponents to your beliefs have gathered, and every fact that might prove beliefs you believe to be wrong to be truth on that topic as well. We are commanded to be habitual, ongoing, never stopping laborers who are approved by God and won’t stand ashamed before Him. How do we determine what that outcome will be? We habitually “Cut-straight” every single piece of the word of God that “might” apply to the topic at hand. This is way different than looking for passages of scripture to prove true what we want to teach on a topic.

CONSISTENCY IN INTERPRETATION: If God, God’s word, and God’s people are not consistent in what they say and do and DON’T SAY AND DON’T DO, then looking for truth in the bible is a waste of time.

4.) Consistency with Background Context: Pick a meaning that fully aligns with the historical, legal, architectural, agricultural … context.

5.) Consistency of Meaning of words/root words/figures of speech: Hold to a meaning for all words, root words, and figures of speech consistent with their usage throughout the Old and New Testament. We have a Greek Old and New Testament and a Hebrew Old Testament, pick a meaning fully fitting everywhere the same word, root word, and figure of speech is used.

6.) Consistency with the Surrounding Discussion: Hold to a meaning consistent with the entire discussion surrounding the verse or passage being considered, hold to the flow of thought, flow of arguments, meaning of points made …

7.) Consistency with conscience: Example: If your interpretation would be a sin if a man did likewise and your interpretation results in believing God does what would be sin for us, your interpretation is wrong. i.e., there are no illustrations in the Bible where God says He commits adultery. If your chosen meaning for the word adultery would make God an adulterer, and by His own admission, you picked the wrong meaning for the word.

8.) God, God’s People and God’s Word are 100% consistent: Pick an interpretation for all the data that makes God, God’s people and God’s word 100% consistent in “all” they say and do and “all” they don’t say and don’t do. Any inconsistencies, are proof of incorrect beliefs/definitions.

9.) Always apply logic, reason, and rational thinking: Pick an interpretation fully fitting with all logic, reason, and rational thinking. (i.e., if the writer spent a whole chapter saying all gifts are equal and necessary, that none are greater than any others, … do not choose an interpretation for the very next verse that would command us to desire what God spent the previous 30 verses saying doesn’t exist, and that you can’t get, period, regardless of your desire. “Earnestly desire the greater gifts”, contradicts everything prior. Look for the “other” possible meaning. Note: There is one.

10.) Start with the Easiest/Clearest … data on the topic: Interpret the clearest, easiest understood, most straightforward data/passages first—then the more complex or difficult passages. The complex, convoluted, and difficult passages are easy to distort to fit beliefs.

11.) It ALL fits together: Pick a meaning for the parts that fully fit with the whole of the data that might pertain without adding meaning, subtracting meaning, or distorting anything to force it to comply with your beliefs. If everything gathered (#3 above) does not fully fit with everything in #4-10 above, you have the wrong meaning, and you are forcing the scriptures to fit what you want to believe “as” truth.

12.) Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop … and hold fast to what is good/true. Getting to truth is an ongoing process that never ends. One single verse, one fact you missed, one slight change in interpretation … can force a complete reevaluation and even a complete a change of beliefs. That is, if you love truth, and obey what God commands all His people to be continuously doing for and by themselves. If not …

13.) It’s all on You! Trusting others to get to truth “for” you, is like trusting others to have a relationship with your wife / husband / kids “for” you. It cannot be done. Your failure to keep on habitually doing as God commands all His people to keep on habitually doing, proves you have gathered enough using Methodology One to hold fast to what you want to believe and fall short of 2Th. 2:10-12

I always tell everyone: Understand, “Agreement with me might only make us both wrong.” Why? Because it's true. It only takes one verse I missed, in context, cut straight, to change my beliefs.

This verse is in the present tense meaning ongoing continuous action:

“Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and always hold fast to what is good/true.” If you love truth, and not a specific belief, you will constantly look for and reevaluate everything you can find, and yes, you will be willing to alter any and all of your beliefs to fit what the fullness of the word of God really says and means with nothing left out, and nothing distorted to try and prove “what you want to believe” true.

Starting from beliefs, and then going to those who have the same ones to get all the passages they use to prove their beliefs to be fact, opposing beliefs false, and to understand how they interpret everything to hold fast to those beliefs always results in the affirmation of those beliefs. If your goal is to do something like that, pick the beliefs you want to have first. If you want to be Mormon gather their data and use their interpretations. If you want to be a Calvinist use theirs, Roman Catholic ... you get the idea.

Now using this, understand that the standards of morality that are true are all found in the O.T. and the bible writers are building on that foundation. What is sin is clearly spelled out, and what is not sin isn't even mentioned. Everything that is important to God with regards to what we should and should not do is clearly spelled out. Unfortunately, we men like to change God's meanings to try and force the word of God to conform to what we want to believe, and most of us have closed our eyes and ears lest we see or hear anything that might be in opposition to those truths.

Example: The definition of the word adultery. David had seven wives BEFORE he committed adultery. Yes, he had sex with all of them. According to God, David's one sin was with regards to Uriah the Hittite (Took his wife while he was still living then got him killed.) Yes, he numbered the people. But there was no command not to number the people, and it was the people themselves who were supposed to pay the tax, not him, thus no sin. Yes he felt horrible because he set the deaths of thousands in motion, but it wasn't sin.

Example 2: How many wives and concubines, and kids with them, did Solomon have? How many times did he commit adultery according to God/scripture?

Example 3: Look at the actual command ... though shall not covet your neighbor's wife. The point is, adultery is taking the wife of another man while he is still living. If she was single, you gained another wife with no possibility of divorce. This is the definition of Adultery when we get to the New testament.

This is the understanding of Jesus and of all of the Jews. Thus God's lack of accusing Moses, Jacob, Gideon ... and dozens of other patriarchs of adultery. It wasn't adultery so God didn't do anything and the bible never condemns it. Not to mention the two places in the O.T. where God says He took multiple wives and that His wives committed adultery against Him. Yeah ... missed those passages didn't you? Now let's use God's definition and interpret the following passage:

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Did God choose the word "fornication" or "unlawful sexual intercourse" here? Because if He did, that would make all lust outside of marriage a sin. But He didn't use that word. God used the word for adultery, and it is the O.T. definition that is used, not our modern made up one. It required a woman currently married to another man be in the room. That's the only way you could dwell upon your lusts and have it be a precursor to adultery. It requires your presence in the very same proximity to a woman married to another man. And yes the word for woman is the generic meaning meaning all women or married woman specifically. It is not the word for virgin.

Thus, Jesus meaning is, "Do not be in the presence of a woman married to someone else and dwell on your lusts for her or you are committing adultery with her in your heart." That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Now let's look at some context for another passage ...

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 But because of fornication(All kinds of unlawful intercourse, touching, uncovering nakedness ... listed in the O.T.), each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband. 3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.

From the context, what kind of touching is going on in verse 1? The kind that leads to verse 2, right? we aren't talking about shaking hands or a chaste hug or kiss, right? It's the touching appropriate for a husband and wife to engage in. Here are some more issues that are important ... self-control is key.

1Co 7:2 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.

1Co 7:5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

1Co 7:9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

1Co 7:36 But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry. 37 But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well.

The question is, before you get to the point where you are touching in such a way as to be headed towards the fornication in verse 2 (Note: adultery was dealt with in that other passage.) are you not to the point of lusting? Is desiring a person who is a fellow Christian of the opposite sex for sex a sin? What if you are getting to the point of this touching and you are at risk of committing fornication. Do you sin if you get to this point?

1Co 7:36 But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry.

But if we "change" the definition of Adultery in that first passage to something equal to fornication, we have a contradiction here. We can touch and get inflamed with passion and it becomes sin, rather than a reason to get married. As far as a person divorced by their spouse for a non-biblical reason, or one who divorces because adultery did occur, we have this:

1Co 7:15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

In other words, the very proof that they left, or did commit adultery is proof of unbelief. If you love Me you will keep My commandments. Why do you call Me Lord, Lord when you do not do as I say?

So, the question becomes, if you are in a relationship with another Christian and "Adultery" cannot occur, when do we get to the point of sin? When we commit fornication, right? Of course if the other person is developing these "feelings" and you don't have them, defrauding could be as much involved as well as if you are "touching" and have no intentions of getting married.
 
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EmethAlethia

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Matthew 19:9 may make him available again, though stricter interpretations exist that say he would not be.

But, pretending for a second that he was never married, and you felt the exact same way about him:

You would need to define your relationship with him before kissing him would be a good idea. As in, you should establish yourselves as a dating couple before you kiss. Preferably an exclusive couple. Failure to do so isn't generally a sin issue, but a bad idea. You want the kiss to be an expression of love, but does he even feel the same way about you?

Here's the problem, stoning was the result of adultery in the O.T.. It's a rather strict form of divorce. Could the person who had their spouse stoned to death for adultery remarry with no problems at all? Of course, right?

Mat 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

The point is, the marriage relationship was terminated by the other party ... quite literally. If you love Me you will keep My commandments, Why do you call Me Lord, Lord when you do not do as I say ...

1Co 7:15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

The point being this, if your spouse leaves you, and not because you committed adultery, they are disobedient to the commands of God ... let them go. You have absolutely no bondage at all in that situation. You are free from all obligations in the eyes of God. It's not your choice but theirs.
 
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Reluctant Theologian

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From a Biblical point of view, the marriage status of the man is irrelevant when he would obtain a yet unmarried woman as a new wife. OT law, which the NT uses as a basis for its definition of 'sexual morality' does not regard polygyny to be a sin.

Now if this man has been divorced already from his first wife because of her adultery - even if one would not have the 'polygyny is not sin' view - it makes it even easier to judge this to not be a sin.
 
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EmethAlethia

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From a Biblical point of view, the marriage status of the man is irrelevant when he would obtain a yet unmarried woman as a new wife. OT law, which the NT uses as a basis for its definition of 'sexual morality' does not regard polygyny to be a sin.

Now if this man has been divorced already from his first wife because of her adultery - even if one would not have the 'polygyny is not sin' view - it makes it even easier to judge this to not be a sin.

Well I'll be ... a man holding to biblical truth and not popular views ... rare indeed. A white elephant in the herd. Defining things biblically, rather than on popular Christian views will get you into trouble my friend ... Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth is not just a passage in the bible. Yes, biblically, there is not a single verse that , in context, says a thing against polygamy. Not one. And our definitions of words and terms have been changed to fit "what we want to believe" "as" truth. Adultery, fornication, marriage, ... we redefine everything to fit what we want to believe, because the truth of God's opinions on the matter offend us.
 
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EmethAlethia

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From a Biblical point of view, the marriage status of the man is irrelevant when he would obtain a yet unmarried woman as a new wife. OT law, which the NT uses as a basis for its definition of 'sexual morality' does not regard polygyny to be a sin.

Now if this man has been divorced already from his first wife because of her adultery - even if one would not have the 'polygyny is not sin' view - it makes it even easier to judge this to not be a sin.
From a Biblical point of view, the marriage status of the man is irrelevant when he would obtain a yet unmarried woman as a new wife. OT law, which the NT uses as a basis for its definition of 'sexual morality' does not regard polygyny to be a sin.

Now if this man has been divorced already from his first wife because of her adultery - even if one would not have the 'polygyny is not sin' view - it makes it even easier to judge this to not be a sin.

Wow. Someone who actually examined the facts of all that God had to say on the issue. Since twice the bible says that God the Father took multiple wives and they committed adultery against Him, the definition of adultery most modern people who believe themselves to be Christians have would result in them labeling God Himself a sinner. Good job.
 
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