Postmil vs. Premil Debate

[JM]

This video is titled a 'debate' but it's more like a convo and very enjoyable. One question that was asked and really bothers me about modern Premil is the idea that a 3rd Temple will be built and have animal sacrifices for sin presided over by Christ. This makes no sense to be in light of scripture or the work of Christ on the cross. Anyway, check it out.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Guojing]

This video is titled a 'debate' but it's more like a convo and very enjoyable. One question that was asked and really bothers me about modern Premil is the idea that a 3rd Temple will be built and have animal sacrifices for sin presided over by Christ. This makes no sense to be in light of scripture or the work of Christ on the cross. Anyway, check it out.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

It will be presided by the Anti-Christ, not Christ, so that is where Hebrews will come in, to tell Israel not to go back to animal sacrifices during that time.

 

[JM]

It will be presided by the Anti-Christ, not Christ, so that is where Hebrews will come in, to tell Israel not to go back to animal sacrifices during that time.

According to many Dispensationalists and other Premillennialists Israel will return to animal sacrifices for sin during the millennial period. Dr. Ice confirms that in the video.

Literal Sacrifices in the Millennium - by Thomas Ice - The Pre-Trib Research Center

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[ewq1938]

According to many Dispensationalists and other Premillennialists Israel will return to animal sacrifices for sin during the millennial period. Dr. Ice confirms that in the video.

Literal Sacrifices in the Millennium - by Thomas Ice - The Pre-Trib Research Center

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I'm Premill but reject the idea of returning to animal sacrifices and do not believe God will inspire a third temple to be built because that is unneeded in the Christian religion (same for animal sacrifices)

 

[Guojing]

According to many Dispensationalists and other Premillennialists Israel will return to animal sacrifices for sin during the millennial period. Dr. Ice confirms that in the video.

Literal Sacrifices in the Millennium - by Thomas Ice - The Pre-Trib Research Center

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Well, we in the Body of Christ will be in the heavens during those 1000 years but I will certainly be keen then to see what Israel do on Earth then.

 

[jgr]

According to many Dispensationalists and other Premillennialists Israel will return to animal sacrifices for sin during the millennial period. Dr. Ice confirms that in the video.

Literal Sacrifices in the Millennium - by Thomas Ice - The Pre-Trib Research Center

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Some folks never learn.

Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII

Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and opressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.

 

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[Timtofly]

I am not sure why Pastor Viggian is post mill. This is just a combination of preterist amil. The claim it is not amil is weak. Post mill was a defined 1000 years, not a figurative time known as the "church age".

The rock was not prophesied until the end of the revived Roman Empire. Both are wrong on that point.

Revelation is the easiest chapter in Revelation to determine with literal context. Satan is not a Spirit. Why do the reformed get this wrong constantly? Satan is a defined physical being created for a single purpose. I don't accept it was Satan's current rebellion or mindset. When you give a physical being the ability to freely think, you can have, even billions of different thought processes. Angels cannot act on their thoughts, but they are reasoning beings with the physical process of thinking. They are not spirits without physical bodies. So the figurative dragon chained in a pit that is already physically opened prior, ends the figurative aspect. We know it is Satan a physical being that is totally bound, because the figurative narrative would not imply anything else, but total binding. It is self explanatory.

A first resurrection is physical and bodily. That is literal, unless you deny the Resurrection of Jesus Christ as well, as only figurative.

So why do we jump from literal to a figurative 1000 years? Even figuratively, mathematically it represents 1000 years. You would not apply a figurative passage to interpret a figurative nor literal passage. One also, in their right mind, would not use Revelation 20 to interpret any other passage that uses the term 1000.

As for a literal reign of Christ, any Scripture on a reign of Christ would interpret each other in context. The how, the length, the who, the why, and even the when. There is currently a physical reign with Christ in Paradise, which many deny, yet claim Christ has fulfilled all Scripture. How can Christ fulfill the physical reign, if it is neither now, or future? The prophecy is not for a new reality, but the current one with Adam's current descendants, not some new reality having nothing to do with Adam nor Jacob.

The church was not supposed to change the world. That was a pagan thought process declared about the church similar to the term Christian. The church's only task was the great commission and the harvest of the vineyard. Nor is it dynastic. One is not physically born (infant baptism) into the church. Each generation has to accept on an individual level and then taught. One is not taught into the church. The problem with a lot of false theology. Nor can the church government people into the church, or change the world by Law. The OT should be a great example of how that does not work.

Even with the Law and a grand Temple, 2 Chronicles 7 is still the only way God will heal a nation. Nineveh is the only proof. Yes there have been great revival moments, but any nation today can still be changed if the church did as God pointed out in 2 Chronicles 7. The church is God's people.

 

[JM]

Yes, some Postmil folks defined the 1000 years as literal, others as figurative, or rather there is an "increased manifestation" of Christ's rule over time.

 

[JM]

 

[JM]

This chart is helpful.

Source: Definition

 

[Timtofly]

This chart is helpful.

Source: Definition

This is still amil. Post mill is great tribulation, then Satan is bound on a desolate earth. No one is on earth, not even the church. This still combines the church and a figurative or literal 1000 year period. Trying to turn a literal period of time into something figurative is when those claiming a literal period of time never happened and they have to come up with a reason it never happened. The reason given is amil.

 

[JM]

It needs to be noted that Amil and Postmil were ONE position until the 1800's so you will find a lot of crossover. Amil teaches the millennial period is real, it's realized now, spiritually. Postmil teaches the millennial period is real, it's realized over time with the manifestation of the Kingdom coming in power before the Second Coming. In both positions the 1,000 years is a real period of time, it's just not limited to 1,000 years only.

I already posted two charts from two different sources and some will still insist they know more about Postmil than Postmillennialists themselves. To encourage further investigation, not just random posts on the internet from anonymous people, I'll post a few titles explaining Postmillennialism from a Postmil perspective.

Sources:

The Puritan Hope by Murray
Postmillennialism by Mathison
The Mission of God by Boot

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Timtofly]

It needs to be noted that Amil and Postmil were ONE position until the 1800's so you will find a lot of crossover. Amil teaches the millennial period is real, it's realized now, spiritually. Postmil teaches the millennial period is real, it's realized over time with the manifestation of the Kingdom coming in power before the Second Coming. In both positions the 1,000 years is a real period of time, it's just not limited to 1,000 years only.

I already posted two charts from two different sources and some will still insist they know more about Postmil than Postmillennialists themselves. To encourage further investigation, not just random posts on the internet from anonymous people, I'll post a few titles explaining Postmillennialism from a Postmil perspective.

Sources:

The Puritan Hope by Murray
Postmillennialism by Mathison
The Mission of God by Boot

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Or perhaps amil is no different than the new post mil? Post mil does have to define the thing they are post about, this is true. Even the Bible claims it comes after the tribulation, so claiming Satan is bound before the tribulation does not make sense. So it does not seem some post mil are even sticking to the Bible, and just winging it.

 

[JM]

Or perhaps amil is no different than the new post mil? Post mil does have to define the thing they are post about, this is true. Even the Bible claims it comes after the tribulation, so claiming Satan is bound before the tribulation does not make sense. So it does not seem some post mil are even sticking to the Bible, and just winging it.

Thank you for admitting you did not and do not understand Amil or Postmil.

 

[Timtofly]

Thank you for admitting you did not and do not understand Amil or Postmil.

I do not understand your chart that has Satan bound before the tribulation.

But sure, blame me for why amil or postmil, do not understand Revelation. Satan is responsible for 42 months of what is written, and it is after the Great Tribulation. You all do not even know how Satan fits into the book of Revelation, cause your charts blatantly show this misunderstanding. Then you expect me to think the chart is correct, and because it is not, I totally do not understand amil or postmill?

Pre-mill do not think this is the millennium and say the preterist are correct and the Second Coming was 70AD.

Your chart is basing amil or postmil on a preterist interpretation. This preterist amil postmil concoction is not the same as amil or postmil, and I understand clearly, because you place the trib where a preterist would.

You do realize your chart with the Second Coming at the end shows absolutely no difference between amil and postmil? Amil would place Satan being bound at the Cross. What is the point in looking like it was in-between the Cross and the trib? If they had put it just after the trib, it would then be postmil.

As I pointed out, postmil can be found as a future 1000 desolate years of a lifeless earth, after a period of trib. This chart is still doubling up the church and the millennium. A trib in 70AD does not effect an amil that much. This new postmil relies heavily on the preterist view of a major trib, and even Coming, it was just not permanent, thus the Second Coming is still postmil. So if I do not understand, it is your chart, not me.

 

[JM]

I do not understand your chart that has Satan bound before the tribulation.

But sure, blame me for why amil or postmil, do not understand Revelation. Satan is responsible for 42 months of what is written, and it is after the Great Tribulation. You all do not even know how Satan fits into the book of Revelation, cause your charts blatantly show this misunderstanding. Then you expect me to think the chart is correct, and because it is not, I totally do not understand amil or postmill?

Pre-mill do not think this is the millennium and say the preterist are correct and the Second Coming was 70AD.

Your chart is basing amil or postmil on a preterist interpretation. This preterist amil postmil concoction is not the same as amil or postmil, and I understand clearly, because you place the trib where a preterist would.

You do realize your chart with the Second Coming at the end shows absolutely no difference between amil and postmil? Amil would place Satan being bound at the Cross. What is the point in looking like it was in-between the Cross and the trib? If they had put it just after the trib, it would then be postmil.

As I pointed out, postmil can be found as a future 1000 desolate years of a lifeless earth, after a period of trib. This chart is still doubling up the church and the millennium. A trib in 70AD does not effect an amil that much. This new postmil relies heavily on the preterist view of a major trib, and even Coming, it was just not permanent, thus the Second Coming is still postmil. So if I do not understand, it is your chart, not me.

I get what you're saying but you are creating a rabbit trail. What you fail to understand is that some variation exists within each school of eschatological thought concerning the binding of Satan. You also failed to get the point of me posting charts. You were claiming the Postmil held to a literal 1,000 years only, I disagreed, you went on mini rant. I posted the charts, not to discuss the binding of Satan, but to demonstrate how Postmil and Amil have overlap and often agree. By doing so I have effectively disproved you assertion that Postmil only teaches a future, literal 1,000 years.

jm