[Catholics Only] Tolkien's Catholicism and the Order of Wizards (Istari) from LOTR

[Gnarwhal]

Does anyone have any commentary or information from Tolkien about the Order of Wizards in his LOTR series? My intense fandom of the world he created goes back to my childhood, I adore it, and I'm just curious if he meant for the wizards to mirror the apostles?

I know technically in the larger mythology of his universe they're sort of angelic beings (subordinate to the Valar) but I think an argument could be made that their abilities and the mission they're charged with more closely resemble that of the apostles. Furthermore, you have the white wizard representing the leader of the order, the one with the most power and authority—perhaps a Pope? Saruman became corrupted and eventually he was replaced with Gandalf who helped guide faithful men to victory against the enemy.

I mean, if this is common knowledge I've totally missed it but I'd like to know if there's any more substantiated connections or if I'm just seeing something I want to see in his story.

 

[zippy2006]

I don't think so, but you would have to present a case first. The Istari were incarnate Maiar sent by the Valar to counsel and aid the inhabitants of Middle Earth in their struggle against Sauron. The Apostles were human beings commissioned as leaders of the early Church who were expected to evangelize the world. Although there may be some overlaps, I don't see anything substantial. I believe Tolkien conceived of his world as pre-Christian, so even apart from his dislike of allegory and direct connections I think this would be a strange move for him to make. They strike me more like lower angels, as you pointed out.

 

[Michie]

Does anyone have any commentary or information from Tolkien about the Order of Wizards in his LOTR series? My intense fandom of the world he created goes back to my childhood, I adore it, and I'm just curious if he meant for the wizards to mirror the apostles?

I know technically in the larger mythology of his universe they're sort of angelic beings (subordinate to the Valar) but I think an argument could be made that their abilities and the mission they're charged with more closely resemble that of the apostles. Furthermore, you have the white wizard representing the leader of the order, the one with the most power and authority—perhaps a Pope? Saruman became corrupted and eventually he was replaced with Gandalf who helped guide faithful men to victory against the enemy.

I mean, if this is common knowledge I've totally missed it but I'd like to know if there's any more substantiated connections or if I'm just seeing something I want to see in his story.

I’m still research but I found this very interesting incase you have not read it.
J.R.R. Tolkien, Catholicism and the Use of Allegory | EWTN

 

[Davidnic]

His Legendarium is influenced by his Catholicism but it is not as one to one as order of Istari would mirror Apostles. They are more Angelic. Leaf By Niggle is a very good reflection on Purgatory.

His Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in the history of Middle Earth books is the most Catholic thing he wrote (with the possible exception of Leaf By Niggle).

A debate between the human wise woman Andreth and the Elven lord Finrod on the nature of things.

Andreth: They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.

And earlier Finrod gives a perfect description of Christian Hope (Which would be Estel as opposed to a simple hope with proof Amdir):

'Have ye then no hope?’ said Finrod.

'What is hope?’ she said. 'An expectation of good, which though uncertain has some foundation in what is known? Then we have none.’

'That is one thing that Men call “hope”,’ said Finrod. ’Amdir we call it, “looking up”. But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is “trust”. It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children’s joy. Amdir you have not, you say. Does no Estel at all abide?’

–J.R.R. Tolkien, The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth’s Ring, “Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth”

 

[Davidnic]

In that same work he writes how Eru (God-The One) will enter into the world to heal man of the most ancient stain. The elves have no idea how this can happen since Eru is being itself (Tolkiens nod to Aquinas). And the human response is basically we don't know how it would happen but it is what comes to us from an ancient prophecy.

So Tolkien worked the Incarnation into his works.

 

[Davidnic]

He writes:

For it was not on the might of Men, or of any of the peoples of Arda, that the old hope was grounded.'

'What then was this hope, if you know?' Finrod asked.

'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to Again, Atani is used in the same limited sense as Edain.

This they say also, or they feign, is a rumor that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.'

'They say, they feign?' said Finrod. 'Are you then not one of them?' '

How can I be, lord? All wisdom is against them. Who is the One, whom ye call Eru? If we put aside the Men who serve the, Nameless, as do many in Middle-earth, still many Men perceive the world only as a war between Light and Dark equipotent. But you will say: nay, that is Manwë and Melkor; Eru is above them. Is then Eru only the greatest of the Valar, a great god among gods, as most Men will say, even among the Atani: a king who dwells far from his kingdom and leaves lesser princes to do here much as they will? Again you say: nay, Eru is One, alone without peer, and He made Eä, and is beyond it; and the Valar are greater than we, but yet no nearer to His majesty. Is this not so?'

'Yes,' said Finrod. 'We say this, and the Valar we know, and they say the same, all save one. But which, think you, is more likely to lie: those who make themselves humble, or he that exalts himself?'

'I do not doubt,' said Andreth. 'And for that reason the saying of Hope passes my understanding. How could Eru enter into the thing that He has made, and than which He is beyond measure greater? Can the singer enter into his tale or the designer into his picture?' '

He is already in it, as well as outside,' said Finrod. 'But indeed the "in-dwelling" and the "out-living" are not in the same mode.'

Truly,' said Andreth. 'So may Eru in that mode be present in Eä that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do this? Would it not shatter Arda, or indeed all Ea?'

'Ask me not,' said Finrod. 'These things are beyond the compass of the wisdom of the Eldar, or of the Valar maybe. But I doubt that our words may mislead us, and that when you say "greater" you think of the dimensions of Arda, in which the greater vessel may not be contained in the less. 'But such words may not be used of the Measureless. If Eru wished to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot foresee it. For, as it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still remain also as He is: the Author without. And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot conceive how else this healing could be achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his own will and to triumph in the end. Yet there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only. Therefore Eru, if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor, who must else proceed to mastery, then Eru must come in to conquer him

 

[Davidnic]

If you want to deep dive Tolkien I recommend the Tolkien professor:

The Tolkien Professor, Dr. Corey Olsen | Click, friend, and enter

Its all free recordings.

If you want others:

https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/amonsul

Tea with Tolkien

 

[zippy2006]

And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot conceive how else this healing could be achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his own will and to triumph in the end. Yet there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only. Therefore Eru, if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor, who must else proceed to mastery, then Eru must come in to conquer him

Interesting quotes. When did Tolkien date this conversation? This section strikes me as strange given the fact that the Valar overthrew Melkor twice.

 

[Davidnic]

It's something he wrote late from Christopher's notes. Sometime in the 1950s. but in the world it seems to be shortly before Finrod died.

So my thought is that the fact that he says only Eru could defeat him is Finrods view. Which would fit with the desperation the Elves had right before Finrod died.

So world timeline wise it is after the first imprisonment of Melkor but before the chaining and casting into the darkness. So shortly before Finrods death when the war against Melkor was going badly and The Valar would not interfere.

Timeline in Tolkiens life it seems that it was in the 1950s.

 

[Davidnic]

Oh I just found it during the siege of Angband is when it is set. He placed it later when he originally wrote it but that was where he put it in the end.

 

[Davidnic]

Here is the Tolkien Gateway entry, it has some good breakdowns and Christophers notes

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth - Tolkien Gateway

 

[leekonghian]

The Istari do not mirror the Apostles, after all there are 12 Apostles and only 5 Istari.
Rather the Istari mirror the Pentarchy.
Pentarchy | Christianity
Pentarchy - OrthodoxWiki

So by definition:
The Istari are:
Gandalf representing the Pope.
Saruman representing the Patriarch of Constantinople.
Radagast the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
Alatar and Pallando representing the Patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria.

I wrote some articles on this on the Catholic Answers Forum but the site has been taken down.

 

[Gnarwhal]

The Istari do not mirror the Apostles, after all there are 12 Apostles and only 5 Istari.
Rather the Istari mirror the Pentarchy.
Pentarchy | Christianity
Pentarchy - OrthodoxWiki

So by definition:
The Istari are:
Gandalf representing the Pope.
Saruman representing the Patriarch of Constantinople.
Radagast the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
Alatar and Pallando representing the Patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria.

I wrote some articles on this on the Catholic Answers Forum but the site has been taken down.

Very cool, nice work.