Patriarchs Meletios IV and Athenagoras I never condemned or excommunicated?

[TheLostCoin]

Quick question - because we are on the topic of Freemasonry and Conspiracies, what are your guys' thoughts on the legitimacy of the Alta Vendita? Is it a real document? Is it a forgery? Does it represent the actual goals of Freemasonry, or is it just representative of the thoughts of a specific lodge? And while this was specific to the Roman Catholic Church, do you think such attempts at subversion have been happening in the Greek Orthodox Church?

http://www.jar2.com/Files/NWO/Permanent_Instruction_of_the_Alta_Vendita.pdf

 

[JasonV]

...the legitimacy of the Alta Vendita? Is it a real document? Is it a forgery?

Probably a forgery, like the Protocols of Zion.

Does it represent the actual goals of Freemasonry, or is it just representative of the thoughts of a specific lodge?

Freemasons, specifically the run-of-the-mill old fogeys you see in Anytown, USA, tend to be rather less malicious than most conspirators want to believe. They are basically the worlds foremost Ecumenists. They aren't calling for an end to any one religion, so much as exalting the idea of a belief in some sort of "Grand Architect of the Universe". I would presume if this were a real document leaked to the public, it was representative of a single lodge, and probably a pseudo-masonic one, such as the Rite of Memphis-Mizraim, or the Ordo Templi Orientis.

And while this was specific to the Roman Catholic Church, do you think such attempts at subversion have been happening in the Greek Orthodox Church?

Without a doubt.

 

[Euthymios]

We're about as Masonic as American beer is to beer. We have a Masonic like initiation rite but no degrees, no craft, nothing else. We do philanthropic service and promote scholarships for parish members.

Although personally, I love this conspiracy theory from Pizzagate that calls AHEPA, "a virtually unknown powerful international ancient Greek ultra secret Masonic society". In our last meeting, we spent 30 minutes discussing the price that our kitchen should charge for selling blocks of feta cheese. I guess I'm not where the action is at!

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]! James ALEFANTIS And New Hampshire Alderman pizza parlor owner ARE BOTH GREEK MEMBERS OF THE HELLENIC SOCIETY, An Ancient Society.
UPDATE: James A. Alefantis of Comet Ping Pong Pizza in Washington DC at the heart of General Flynn’s PIZZAGATE, and his family are connected to a virtually unknown powerful international ancient Greek ultra secret Masonic society, Order of the AHEPA, the American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association. They are also associated with the Hellenic Orthodox Church of Annunciation (Grandmother Helen Pappas Alefantis).

Psalti Chrysostom, American beer is beer, so I am concerned about your analogy. I noticed that the Ahepa website uses vague language but doesn't come right out denying to be Masonic. I am also concerned that they give vows, like Masons. Christ taught us not to make vows. He said swear not at all. (Matthew 5:34).​

 

[Euthymios]

Any ideas why the GOA doesnt have the same issue with Freemasonry as other jurisdictions? Was Freemasonry, and other lodges such as Elks, a way for Greeks to fit into American society?

Is Ahepa Masonic? I asked them but never heard back. That's a problem with the Orthodox, when they are asked questions of a controversial nature, they freeze-up, never answer, and nothing ever gets resolved. There is a real problem of standoffishness with Orthodox clergy. I wish they were more humble and loving like Christ. I have found very few Orthodox clergy who put their neighbor before themselves.

 

[The Liturgist]

. So they adapted churches to match more with the US style (pews and organs),

Actually Greeks in Iona and in Western Europe had organs, and in antiquity the Hagia Sophia had an organ in the Narthex that was played while the people assembled there before the service.

There is also some very beautiful Greek Orthodox liturgical music by Tikey Zes and other composers that uses the organ.

Now obviously I don’t want to see organs in the Slavonic Orthodox churches, but in the Greek church, they have some exquisite organ music. I also would note that most iconoclasts in the Western church also went after the organs, which is why the most iconoclastic denominations of the “four bare walls and a sermon” type do not have them. They objected to organs for the same reason they objected to iconography, destroying both painted iconography and stained glass windows, as well as the distinctly Western statuary (which the EO normally avoids).

 

[The Liturgist]

this is something for the bishops to do. but it took Origen more than 200 years to be formally condemned, but that didn't make him any less the heretic.

The thing about Origen that doubtless slowed things down I expect was the regard he was held in by the Cappadocians, who compiled his best writings in the Philocalia.* Likewise Theodore of Mopsuestia was an extremely close friend of St. John Chrysostom, and the anathema against him caused a 30 year schism in Spain, the Three Chapters Controversy.

I doubt either of the bishops in this thread benefit from the equivalence. Indeed there are some Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics who wish Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia had not been anathematized.


*Readers should note that I am referring to the Philocalia with a c, not to be confused with the Philokalia with a k, which is a completely different anthology which in its initial Greek form was the work of the 18th century Athonite monks St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite and St. Macarius of Corinth, and which does not (unless the version translated by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware is defective) contain Origen.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

We're about as Masonic as American beer is to beer. We have a Masonic like initiation rite but no degrees, no craft, nothing else. We do philanthropic service and promote scholarships for parish members.

Although personally, I love this conspiracy theory from Pizzagate that calls AHEPA, "a virtually unknown powerful international ancient Greek ultra secret Masonic society". In our last meeting, we spent 30 minutes discussing the price that our kitchen should charge for selling blocks of feta cheese. I guess I'm not where the action is at!

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]! James ALEFANTIS And New Hampshire Alderman pizza parlor owner ARE BOTH GREEK MEMBERS OF THE HELLENIC SOCIETY, An Ancient Society.
UPDATE: James A. Alefantis of Comet Ping Pong Pizza in Washington DC at the heart of General Flynn’s PIZZAGATE, and his family are connected to a virtually unknown powerful international ancient Greek ultra secret Masonic society, Order of the AHEPA, the American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association. They are also associated with the Hellenic Orthodox Church of Annunciation (Grandmother Helen Pappas Alefantis).

I knew (big age difference) one of the founders of AHEPA. A normal guy - not a big shot. My "relation" - a respected person - refused to join AHEPA because it used stolen ritual from the Masons. I am not a member - was never asked, but I likely would have respected my "relation" and not joined.

Greeks were treated badly at least until WW2 in the US. So, AHEPA's aim was/is to have some unity and perhaps some positive recognition in the community. The Greek-American community was in turmoil due to politics in Greece until Athenagoras took charge in the 1930s or so. As to Greek-Americans joining the Masons, yeah, it was a way to fit in. Not all 'Americans' were hostile. And especially then into the 1960s, Americans joining fraternal organizations were a big deal. Now, joining is very locally based. The local Elks might have a good buffet or a golf club, etc. Many have relaxed their membership rules or are dying out.

As to the Masons, my only exposure to it was a burial ritual conducted by one person. He made all sorts of emphatic statements - don't remember the details - but did not sound blasphemous. It wasn't comforting. My reaction was 'how empty this sounds compared to a Orthodox service'. Also, how he would bother to remember all that speech.

 

[notRusskiyMir]

Actually Greeks in Iona and in Western Europe had organs, and in antiquity the Hagia Sophia had an organ in the Narthex that was played while the people assembled there before the service.

There is also some very beautiful Greek Orthodox liturgical music by Tikey Zes and other composers that uses the organ.

Now obviously I don’t want to see organs in the Slavonic Orthodox churches, but in the Greek church, they have some exquisite organ music. I also would note that most iconoclasts in the Western church also went after the organs, which is why the most iconoclastic denominations of the “four bare walls and a sermon” type do not have them. They objected to organs for the same reason they objected to iconography, destroying both painted iconography and stained glass windows, as well as the distinctly Western statuary (which the EO normally avoids).

in antiquity the Hagia Sophia had an organ in the Narthex

That is interesting. That would be before 1204, before the City was sacked as the 4th Crusade, or before 1453 when the Ottomans took the City. Doesn't sound right, but...

I've read that in the palace? where foreign ambassadors would meet the Emperor, they were made to go through a series of rooms, stopping in each one, where mechanical wonders would operate, such as a tree with various birds each one 'programmed' to move and 'chirp' in their own way. Of course, Alexandria was known for Hero's steam operated wonders. Likely brought in much from there. So, whether it was an organ or a mechanical music box, it is still music in an Orthodox church by non-human means.

I read that Athenagoras allowed organs in the American churches. And Greek American women decided to not wear mantles (head coverings).

Added: St Katherine of Alexandria (Saint Catherine) is shown with a wheel with which she was tortured. My opinion is this was likely a steam operated torture device, in that Alexandria long retained knowledge of Hero's steam processes. Therefore it had to have been horrible. Yet she defeated it.

 

[The Liturgist]

Also, how he would bother to remember all that speech.

Freemasons spend a huge amount of time memorizing and reciting speeches, gestures and so on. Indeed I suspect a fair number of people became Freemasons rather than members of other fraternities offering life-insurance type benefits, such as the Oddfellows, Woodmen, B.P.O.E. et cetera, was to practice and develop their skill at memorization or as a way of keeping their memory sharp.

In contrast the liturgical churches have always provided service books which can be used on the altar and the chant stand. Indeed even a 33rd degree Mason might balk at the prospect of having to memorize the entire range of Orthodox service books including all eight volumes of the Octoechos and all twelve volumes of the full Monthly Menaion, in addition to the General Menaion, the Octoechos, the Horologion, the Irmoilogion (which you need in some cases due to not all editions of the service books containing the full Irmos at the start of each Ode in the Canons), the Triodion, the Pentecostarion, the Liturgikon and Euchologion or Trebnik and Sluzhbenik as they are known in Russian (I think in Church Slavonic), and also the Evangelion, Apostol and Prophetologion, and finally the Typikon which acts as the liturgical glue which binds the whole system together like JCL (job control language) on an IBM mainframe, operating on a continual cycle that repeats approximately every 537 years assuming no one changes the service books or the Typikon (which they did; the Violakis Typikon differs in periodicity owing to various simplifications, but I prefer the tradititional versions of the typikon, namely, those versions of the Sabaite-Studite synthesis used by the Russian Old Rite Orthodox and those used by the Athonites ROCOR, the Serbians, Jerusalem, Georgia, and parts of the OCA, and also the disused Cathedral Typikon that ceased being used in Constantinople after the Venetian invasion in 1204, but which has been reconstructed by Dr. Alexander Lingas and sounds epic. When we retake Hagia Sophia from the Muslims without violence by converting the Turks to Orthodox Christianity that is the Typikon that should be used at Hagia Sophia.